497 replies to this topic

[Azalie]

Sifright, on 05 March 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Critical thinking failure.

The MC player can fit the 35% mc option.

and the MC Airstrike vs the Free player who can spend cbills to acquire just the coolant flush given the same number of module slots.

We are comparing coolant flushes not Airstrikes. For Christ sake you can also just not take the MC or CBill flushes and slap on a base cap accelerator.

Air strikes will not be as effective as being able to get an important and timed shot off, which the flexibility offered by two separate flushes could potentially allow.

[Rocdocta]

Headlessnewt, on 04 March 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Final opinion on this:

If some bro wants to pay 3 bucks to beat me in an online game that I paid 0 bucks for, he's welcome to it if it makes his balls feel big. I'll have 3 bucks he doesn't.

Ha ha i love this. my thoughts exactly. If i play 10 games a night at $3 a flush...thats $30 bucks saved. Do that 7 nights a a week and i have...no wife! But it would be a saving of $210 if i did. its just a game.

[Noobzorz]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I'm not going to flame you for this, as there's technically a small semantic hole in this posting that does look like what you said. In the context of the entire post though it's more a case of poor wording than having double-duty T1 and T2 modules.

I'm not seeing that semantic hole at all. The meaning is explicit in the summary, and settles the ambiguity in the wording earlier.

[MegaBusta]

Mr Mantis, on 05 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

And the cbill does the same when stacked and comes with 2 uses. That way you can spread that same 35% over two encounters. I would find the cbill one more useful.

and a quote from the topic post:
"Look at it this way, you get the SAME TOTAL heat dissipation on BOTH purchase methods. The C-bill one gives you the opportunity to dump twice in 1 match at the cost of a module slot."


Perhaps you should read what it does before you make yourself sound foolish.

And the guy who's paying cash can also pay MORE cash to put on a tier 3 air strike.

Enjoy your two gimped flushes though. I'm totally sure you won't end up using them back to back most of the time.

[armyof1]

Rocdocta, on 05 March 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

lots of text

Sorry mate but you make it sound like making a game P2W is the only way to make the company money. I think the opposite, this way of trying to make money will quickly kill the game when people realize this isn't a game that is still competitive without your bank account being able to sustain you in each and every match. This is a sure-fire way to kill a game in the long run.

[zenlike]

I would vastly prefer a subscription model to what I fear this is going to devolve into.

[SteelWarrior]

Sifright, on 05 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

..........

You have no idea what you are talking about.

This is the death of competitive tournament play. This game will never be feature in E-sports if it has features like this because you have to pay for the advantage every single game. If you don't some one with more money than you but the same skill wins.

You are foolish if you can't see how that is disastrous to a competitive game.

No your fool. This isnt the death of anything. People spend 5000 dollars on a gaming rig to play on a tourney level. Does that not give the person the same "pay to win" ******** advantage your crying about over the guy who only spends 2000. Or the guy using the latest gaming mouse. Or a 300 dollar head set for a hearing advantage.

Such a ******* minor edge. Perfect example of human stupidity. this whole thread.

[TibsVT]

I completely agree. While I am happy to spend my MC on fancy little cockpit items or new paint I don't like the idea of some other poor guy/girl who just wants to play and have fun without spending anything being at a disadvantage to the rest of us, simply because he/she does not want to spend money.

Yeah, I forked over the cash for a Legendary Founder pack but that doesn't mean I want to be put at an unfair advantage, that sort of thing just ruins a game for me. I like to be beaten by someone genuinely better than I am, rather than beating everyone else simply because I have an MC crutch.

It's obnoxious on PGI's end. Give us more novelty clutter to put in/on our Mechs and I'm sure people will buy them. At least then you can have you minor source of income although when you produce a F2P game I think you all know what you're signing up to make in the long haul. You have no need to market a bigger community because there is no monthly subsription, just people who play the game because they love it.

Think about that before upsetting your core playerbase.

Edited by KelesK, 05 March 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[Noobzorz]

Azalie, on 05 March 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

We are comparing coolant flushes not Airstrikes. For Christ sake you can also just not take the MC or CBill flushes and slap on a base cap accelerator.

Air strikes will not be as effective as being able to get an important and timed shot off, which the flexibility offered by two separate flushes could potentially allow.

I'm always amazed what people are able to convince themselves of.

When you typed this, did you really believe it? I mean, you have founders status, which leads me to believe you've played the game before, but I just don't know how anyone who has played the game could imagine that a module slot is worth the negligible advantage provided by "flexibility" when a single alpha can do as much as 50% of your heat.

You're also making some genuinely heroic assumptions about airstrikes.

Any reasonable person will be forced to conclude that the MC version is strictly better.

SteelWarrior, on 05 March 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

No your fool. This isnt the death of anything. People spend 5000 dollars on a gaming rig to play on a tourney level. Does that not give the person the same "pay to win" ******** advantage your crying about over the guy who only spends 2000. Or the guy using the latest gaming mouse. Or a 300 dollar head set for a hearing advantage.

Such a ******* minor edge. Perfect example of human stupidity. this whole thread.

Yes. For instance, posts like yours are a particularly egregious example.

[Parnage Winters]

Given a lot of thought on this, asked some people who don't love Mechwarrior but do game quite a bit as I wanted some non biased thoughts on this because it's hard to remain objective without remembering the problems of Coolant flush in the previous games.

This goes too far, I am fine with Hero mechs, I've always felt weapon systems can be too good not really mechs themselves. Tiered like it is I can not nor will I play this game. Even if you have some of my favorite mechs of all time coming in(Orion,Highlander) and even if you put in that hero pink highlander I can't abide pay to win like this.

PGI has overstepped by either accident or test and any player be they serious or weekend mechjock needs to realize this and pressure them to rethink this plan.

You have no idea how much I've wanted a game like this, and to say I'd stop because of this just..hurts. I feel horrid but I have to stand by my principles and even the love of Rhonda's Highlander won't stop me from saying to hell with this game if they put in this pay2win model of tiered modules

[M0rpHeu5]

That's why i hate F2P games, if only it was MW5...

[Tarman]

Mr Mantis, on 05 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

And the cbill does the same when stacked and comes with 2 uses. That way you can spread that same 35% over two encounters. I would find the cbill one more useful.

and a quote from the topic post:
"Look at it this way, you get the SAME TOTAL heat dissipation on BOTH purchase methods. The C-bill one gives you the opportunity to dump twice in 1 match at the cost of a module slot."


Perhaps you should read what it does before you make yourself sound foolish.

You should do some reading too, especially things you put in your own post. It's not just this particular coolant pod module. It's the premium on module space combined with a freeplay=moar-slot-use-for-same-effect that creates large problems, that are only multiplied across teams of mechs. More MC=more power, straight up, times the number of paid rides on a side. The guy with more money can run better and more varied module loadouts, that are literally unreplicable by a freeplayer. Bad bad model for the long-term life of the game, which is the overall real issue behind this.

And this is Sifright. I've seen him tell people to shut their holes and l2p since forever about pretty much every other crappy thing that's ever appeared in this game. If he's worried then that in itself is a bad sign.

[SteelWarrior]

Protection, on 05 March 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Our original RHoD Championship lineup had four free players ($0 spent, ever, on the game), and almost every competitive team (even the ones better than us) has players that do not have money to buy MC. And they shouldn't have to to remain competitive and relevant.

Lots of people have spare time and decent computers and no money to throw away on a computer game. And part of the reason they play is so that we can play with them. If they leave, their paying friends might leave too. And their friends leave. This could cause a cascade of players into a full on exodus.

This argument isn't just for the good of game balance this is for the good of the game's existence. If you want the game to thrive and have a paying community, you need to make the game worth participating in. Pay2Win is the opposite direction.

Well maybe they should retail this game for 60 dollars as a one time buy and not update it with new stuff. then your broke *** friends couldnt play at all.

[Mitta]

Protection, on 04 March 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I wasn't happy with the idea of Hero Mechs (as some may remember my 76 page long discussion against Hero Mechs unavailable to free players). I don't like content being unavailable to free players - especially when that content allows different gameplay options, strategies and tactics that free players can never imitate.

But this is worse that that. PGI is introducing a tiered module system. There will be 3 tiers of coolant flush, 3 tiers of artillery strike, and 3 tiers of air strike. And the highest - most powerful - tier will be off limits to free players.

And this is just the start of a tiered module/consumable system that will extend to future modules and future consumables and future equipment. If we allow it into the game here and now, then it will be there to stay. A tiered, paying for power hierarchy will be established and once entrenched it wont be removed.

I cannot emphasize this enough:

Making the most powerful consumables MC only IS PAYING FOR POWER.

Power that free players cannot have access to, exclusively for paying customers. This is no different than Golden Ammunition. Paying customers are being given, not just options, but black and white, clear as day, power - advantageous improvements over free players.

"But Protection - I can just by a tier one coolant module and a tier two coolant module, and have the same desired effect."

At the cost of a module slot! This is not fair. This is not equal playing fields. This is not competition.

If tow players use a mech with only one module: player A has a paid Tier 3 Large Coolant Flush, where Player B has a Tier 2 Medium Coolant Flush -- and everything else (mech loadout) is the same, then player A has purchased an advantage. By cooling more heat faster, he has improved DPS, improved efficiency, less chance to shutdown. This is an absolute advantage.

To illustrate it in other ways:



Or how about more simply:





This is complete and total garbage. This is the exact sort of thing we were repeatedly told that PGI would never resort to, and the kind of thing that they were striving to avoid. This kind of thing is utterly ruinous to competitive play - the team that doesn't spend real money doesn't get to play with the same equipment - but only less powerful substitutes (or fewer of them).

This is completely and utterly ruinous to Mechwarrior: Online - as a competitive game or even as a game that many of us want to play.

PGI, please don't implement consumables in this fashion. Don't make free players less competitive. Don't make free players forced to use inferior equipment, regardless of how hard they grind. Don't ruin game balance in this fashion. You will lose players over this - and ultimately revenues.

Please read it again both have an advantage and disadvantage. And since the hero mechs have not prove OP they are still not pay to win. Same will most likely be the case for consumables. And besides that why wouldn't people be pushed towards paying for the game. PGI is a commercial company they live from the money we pay them, not from our eternal gratitude for making this awesome game.

Yeesh some people really think everything needs to be free.

[SteelWarrior]

Noobzorz, on 05 March 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Yes. For instance, posts like yours are a particularly egregious example.

lol. thats right. dont touch the details of my post, just throw a immaturity jab. worth the read.

[ebichu]

I'm 100% opposed to this, this is clearly paying to have an advantage. Small or not it all adds up even more so when you consider entire teams.
I really hope they reconsider this direction.
On the bright side, all those splattcats, ecm+streaks lights and similar issues seem completely minor in retrospective. I guess that's one way of solving a problem .

Edited by ebichu, 05 March 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Mr Mantis, on 05 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

And the cbill does the same when stacked and comes with 2 uses. That way you can spread that same 35% over two encounters. I would find the cbill one more useful.

and a quote from the topic post:
"Look at it this way, you get the SAME TOTAL heat dissipation on BOTH purchase methods. The C-bill one gives you the opportunity to dump twice in 1 match at the cost of a module slot."


Perhaps you should read what it does before you make yourself sound foolish.

Learn to math.

It's the same percentage, NOT the same value.
Sequential application means that from say 100 heat the MC mod drops you from 100 to 65.

For the c-bill mods go from 100-75-67.5 or 100-90-67.5

.....and the more heatsinks you have the BIGGER the advantage the MC modules afford.

It look equal because many people .....like you.....don't think through the absolute values.

Edited by Yokaiko, 05 March 2013 - 12:41 AM.

[Ihasa]

Tennex, on 04 March 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

P2W doesn't work.

Nexxon needs 6 P2Ws and they don't make nearly as much as Riot's F2P.
this has become a subpar game.


just another P2W

Really? Tell that to Star Trek Online. Their profits are up something like 2000% since they went full on pay to win.

Also
http://www.slideshar...s/paying-to-win

says otherwise.

In essence, it's a very nearsighted strategy. do they want the game to burn out sooner, or later? p2w = sooner. balance = later.

These consoles this way is pure pay2win.

[Azalie]

Noobzorz, on 05 March 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

I'm always amazed what people are able to convince themselves of.

When you typed this, did you really believe it? I mean, you have founders status, which leads me to believe you've played the game before, but I just don't know how anyone who has played the game could imagine that a module slot is worth the negligible advantage provided by "flexibility" when a single alpha can do as much as 50% of your heat.

You're also making some genuinely heroic assumptions about airstrikes.

Any reasonable person will be forced to conclude that the MC version is strictly better.

Incorrect. And I know this for a fact because I know my battlemechs quite well.

My Atlas will never use coolant flushes as it has not overheated since I upgrade to DHS. My Stalker does overheat but it does so in a very predictable fashion.

After 3 SRM barrages my Stalker will have destroyed anything but an Atlas and another Stalker assuming I was in proper range and they were not ducking behind cover just as I fired. When doing that little dance assault mechs tend to do when they get in a fight I can manage a 4th strike before my heat is roughly 90% on any map but frozen city which is irrelevant and Caustic Valley. In this situation a 5th strike would almost certainly destroy the enemy mech if it still stands (which they sometimes do) and a 5th strike would be possible with a 15% reduction in heat. After that mech is destroyed my heat typically drops off and levels out before I find my next target as I don't tend to run into large groups alone. A 35% reduction in heat would have been a waste.

With the MC flush I would be out of second chances for the map. With the 15 and 20 I would be able to repeat this process once more.

I know my primary mechs. The CBill system would benefit my style more than the MC system would. That is a fairly reasonable conclusion.

As is the conclusion that airstrikes will be about as effective as an LRM 20-40 barrage on an area. Any more and the game would turn into Artillery Online.

[Mr Mantis]

Tarman, on 05 March 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

You should do some reading too, especially things you put in your own post. It's not just this particular coolant pod module. It's the premium on module space combined with a freeplay=moar-slot-use-for-same-effect that creates large problems, that are only multiplied across teams of mechs. More MC=more power, straight up, times the number of paid rides on a side. The guy with more money can run better and more varied module loadouts, that are literally unreplicable by a freeplayer. Bad bad model for the long-term life of the game, which is the overall real issue behind this.

And this is Sifright. I've seen him tell people to shut their holes and l2p since forever about pretty much every other crappy thing that's ever appeared in this game. If he's worried then that in itself is a bad sign.

I wonder if they will have coolant flush make you generate more heat once used. That would put it directly in line with most the other modules (useless).

Try to hold in your rage until they launch it.