244 replies to this topic

[liku]

Please cool down and considere this:
You can buy a mech with Cbill$ or
Only heroes Mechs are

They only give you a Cbills$ Advantage and you dont need Hero Mechs to win 8mans.

version of the coolant, give you a slot, because Cbill$ coolant do the same and they seem to not have cooldown ability between use.

The Freeplayer have acces to the same function, but at a cost of Slot.
Paying player dont need to sell there mech to levels them, they have the mechbays. Freeplayers have to grinds.

I like the flexibility. If i would to play with coolant and have no more Cbill$ (even if the price is cheap) i have to option to take the version, without having to wait one more drop.


---edit---
PATCHING!!!!

Let's continue this talk after 50 games! no more time needed to rant here, come get some, i'll cool you down...definitly!

Edited by liku, 05 March 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[ohtochooseaname]

Broceratops, on 05 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

yes, but you also lose nothing since you can presumably use both at the same time for the same big effect. well you do lose the module slot, which later on is possibly a big deal but until that day comes the cbill one is a clear cut winner in my eyes because all the other modules are worse

cap accelerator = good in theory. but in thousands of games its won me maybe one game total
360 targetting = i guess if you're spotting for lrms its useful, but no one uses lrms in 8s or spots in pugs
target decay = the most useful one, but mostly if you're a light running streaks or a lrm boat
target data = that extra 1 or 2 seconds before you get a readout is going to be at most 1 shot, if not 0 shots. plus shooting them in the CT is never a bad idea.
others = totally bleh

You forgot the sensor module, which lets you target through ECM from 180 to 250 without TAG.

[Cheetokun]

I won't even get into why dividing consumables into MC-only items and Cbill items is an awful idea. That's been beaten nearly to death, and it seems like you guys are absolutely sold on the World of Tanks model. An instant percentage heat reduction is an awful mechanic that trivializes heat management. There's absolutely no drawback apart from the consumable nature of the module. This is awful design. Something which gives this level of benefit simply must have a drawback more serious than having to cough up a little more dough to replace it.

Moreover, I'm insulted that the fact that the ability to stagger two small coolant flushes with the Cbill solution is being touted as an advantage over the MC version. It's a trivial advantage that likely won't see much use. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if this goes live as-is, 90% of Cbill flushes will be consecutive.

Edited by Cheetokun, 05 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Elwood Blues]

Can we have a quarter slot in our cockpit that says "Insert Coin for Cool Mech"? Even better, can my extra alpha strike shoot rolls of cash at the enemy instead of PPCs? I want the enemy to know what killed them. I want them to know it wasn't my heat management skills.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Bryan... you guys have been legit here... but put coolant on your "DO NOT DO" list right next to 3rd person view...

it's a terribad idea... most of us are actually looking foward to arty/airstrikes and we've known that's coming since you detailed modules way back.

but coolant, coolant was one of those "We will never do" things you guys told us about, right next to 3rd person... yet you're talking about bringing coolant in.

It's an unwanted feature, simple as that.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Small Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 15% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 5,000 CB per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.

Medium Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 20% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 7,500 CB per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.

Large Coolant Flush

• 1 module slot.
  
• 1 use per match.
  
• Consumed when used.
  
• 35% of total heat sink efficiency is cooled when used.
  
• 25 per use.
  
• Only one can be equipped.
  
• Can't be equipped if Small or Medium Cooling flush are currently equipped.

We're still tuning the details, but this is currently in test. Paul is updating the CC post and will added the Arty/Air Strike details.

This actually seems quite reasonable depending on the mechanics of how the airstrike and artillary are called in. Blindly designating a target on the grid? or locked target position (ie the place a locked target was in when the strike was triggered).

I like that the cbill versions of other modules are actually better matched. Personally, I think any coolant flush is a crutch for an improperly configured and piloted mech. I have no plans on wasting any module slots on coolant when more effective alternatives can be configured.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 05 March 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Jerod Drekmor]

As F2P player I dont see problem with tier3 coolant cost 25MC..... If you are so desperate pay/win and reach tops of ELO ranking with other desperates....I`ll stay with tier 2 and will be playing thx to ELO with guys who dont pay for it cuz is so obvious you will win once you install tier 3 coolant. With DHS I dont even have to use it in most cases....some laser boat will benefit but PGI can always tweek heat points or add additional heat for shooting 3 of same weapons from one sector. Simple.
BTW when you cry "Sky is falling!" before you can see how it works you are nuts.

[Elric]

If the item is also available via game earned C-Bills doesn't that also mean it is not P2W?
As Iiku said.
Why complain about a small thing like this and not the 'buying' mechs?

I like it. Though I think the C-Bill and MC versions should be the same...but not a big deal.
F2P is great, but lets not forget that in order for the game to continue the devs MUST make some money!
You aren't forced to spend actual cash, but for those that have the money and perhaps not the free time it helps them level the playing field.

[Yokaiko]

Jerod Drekmor, on 05 March 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

As F2P player I dont see problem with tier3 coolant cost 25MC..... If you are so desperate pay/win and reach tops of ELO ranking with other desperates....I`ll stay with tier 2 and will be playing thx to ELO with guys who dont pay for it cuz is so obvious you will win once you install tier 3 coolant. With DHS I dont even have to use it in most cases....some laser boat will benefit but PGI can always tweek heat points or add additional heat for shooting 3 of same weapons from one sector. Simple.
BTW when you cry "Sky is falling!" before you can see how it works you are nuts.

While I'm glad you have no interest in playing in the upper eschelons of the ELO bracket. I already do, and refuse to pay to remain so.

So I, a paying customer am not logging in again until the MC only consumables are gone.

Edited by Yokaiko, 05 March 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Cheetokun, on 05 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I won't even get into why dividing consumables into MC-only items and Cbill items is an awful idea. That's been beaten nearly to death, and it seems like you guys are absolutely sold on the World of Tanks model. An instant percentage heat reduction is an awful mechanic that trivializes heat management. There's absolutely no drawback apart from the consumable nature of the module. This is awful design. Something which gives this level of benefit simply must have a drawback more serious than having to cough up a little more dough to replace it.

Moreover, I'm insulted that the fact that the ability to stagger two small coolant flushes with the Cbill solution is being touted as an advantage over the MC version. It's a trivial advantage that likely won't see much use. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that if this goes live as-is, 90% of Cbill flushes will be consecutive.

Maybe for terrible pilots, I know that in my jenner I'd get a lot more out of two separate flushes than one big one. I'm constantly overheating for kill shots and immediately slamming the shutdown button before i explode. This would allow me to do it twice per match with no risk to personal safety.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Cheetokun, on 05 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I won't even get into why dividing consumables into MC-only items and Cbill items is an awful idea. That's been beaten nearly to death, and it seems like you guys are absolutely sold on the World of Tanks model. An instant percentage heat reduction is an awful mechanic that trivializes heat management. There's absolutely no drawback apart from the consumable nature of the module. This is awful design. Something which gives this level of benefit simply must have a drawback more serious than having to cough up a little more dough to replace it.

Actually, the draw back is wasting a module slot that could be used for something else to equip a coolant flush at all. A flush appears largely ineffective in the scheme of things. Most battles I've been in are not so close that a flush would change the overall outcome. Being limited to a single use, it might grant 1 extra salvo or shot...but that's likely not going to turn your mech into a Super Fire Breathing Mario pwning Koopas. You'll still going to die when faced in a 2 on 1 or in a firepower mismatch (Assault vs Heavy) etc. Now that we see what the modules are going to cost, I'll take an Artillary strike over a Flush 10 of 10 times and watch my heat like I always have.

[Cheetokun]

hammerreborn, on 05 March 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Maybe for terrible pilots, I know that in my jenner I'd get a lot more out of two separate flushes than one big one. I'm constantly overheating for kill shots and immediately slamming the shutdown button before i explode. This would allow me to do it twice per match with no risk to personal safety.

Sure sounds like a mechanic that would trivialize heat management.

[hammerreborn]

Cheetokun, on 05 March 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Sure sounds like a mechanic that would trivialize heat management.

One salvo in an 8 minute match? Cry me a ******** river.

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 March 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Brothergrimm]

The numbers seem fine, but to be honest I wasn't worried about the numbers before. Fundamental elements of this design seem inelegant, at best. What I am still left wondering about after this clarification is - why the overall design is this way? Can you guys speak to why an obvious alternative implementation such as:

• Introduce a "consumables" slot(s) for each chassis. (This way you aren't trying to balance consumables against the always-on passive modules)
  
• Have the consumables be one-time purchases that can then be swapped between mechs like modules currently can.
  
• Each consumable can be activated X times per match for Y effect, where X is balanced per consumable and Y is tuned per weight class of the mech it is mounted in.
  
• There is a single effect version of each consumable, available for purchase with MC or c-bills.
  
• If R&R costs are brought back as a c-bill sink, then replenishing a consumable adds to R&R cost. If R&R cost stays gone why bring a version of it back ONLY for this?
  
• Optionally consumables have a tonnage + slot requirement which act like dynamic slots already do for endo/FF - or have other equip requirements, like the Command Console.

Was not used?

[Shredhead]

Coolant flush is gamebreaking, and it's bad design. Period. It doesn't even matter if there is p2w option or not, it's an abomination that doesn't belong in these game mechanics! Now high heat high alpha builds get even more of an edge. You should play your own game from time to time, especially 8 mans, if you can't see it!

[Cheetokun]

hammerreborn, on 05 March 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

One salvo in an 8 minute match? Cry me a ******** river.

You said it yourself. With the Cbill version, that's potentially two kills you might not have gotten without coolant flush. That means a lot in matches this size.

[Bhan Zor]

Move along and play the game, you might be in for a surprise...

[Yokaiko]

Bhan Zor, on 05 March 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Move along and play the game, you might be in for a surprise...

Simply put, no.

The integrity of the game is suspect, there are a number of other titles that can and have kept me occupied.

[Liquidx]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

See my previous post about punishing the Free player. The cost would need to be prohibitive to create enough friction to make a player want to spend MC. Instead we decide to make the system accessible to all, and create a value proposition difference between the two types.

Can you please elaborate on how completely excluding the f2p player from acquiring an item is making the system accessible to all?

Even if you made the tier 3 one cost 200k (2 good wins in order to buy), it would be a reasonable amount to charge, and then you actually do make it accessible to all players, and don't give a competitive edge to the player willing to drop MC on a disposable item. I would actually suggest that the costs for these items are actually too cheap - both in cb and mc. Probably the issue isn't going to be made clear with the coolant flush items, but when it comes to airstrikes and artillery support, when every player on the team has them - in every game - it will likely get to be more than a little stupid.

What's worse is you're trying to pass off the player using 2 slots to attain the same effectiveness as the player who uses 1 slot as fair and balanced. That is neither fair nor balanced sir. That is clearly and without doubt giving the paying player an advantage over the non paying player. I thought this was something the dev team wanted to avoid at all costs. I don't think it matters if you're paying 12 cents to win, or 30 bucks. It's just bad for competition.

[hammerreborn]

Cheetokun, on 05 March 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

You said it yourself. With the Cbill version, that's potentially two kills you might not have gotten without coolant flush. That means a lot in matches this size.

Ya, two kill steals/kills instead of assists. It's not like the guy I was fighting wasn't about to die. It's stat padding, nothing more, nothing less. And instead of instantly being able to fire I'd have to wait a whole whopping 2-3 seconds to finish him off instead, or as I said, fire and slam p for instant shutdown, hit it again to pop right back up, and only temporarily stop moving before I move on to the next victim.