244 replies to this topic

[Elwood Blues]

hammerreborn, on 05 March 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

Math isn't your strong suit. At the bare minimum, if two shots shuts you down, that's a minimum of 45%. Lets even go with your heat dissapation of 11 seconds for 35%, or 3.2% a second. A shot every 3 seconds.

So every 3 seconds you dissipate 9.6% heat.

So back to your 6 ppc stalker, for you to overheat in two shots, you need to do 109.6% heat in two shots over 3s. So each salvo is 54.8% heat per salvo.

So lets say you hit O for that second shot so yuo dont autoshutdown and immediately pop your coolant to go to 109.6-35% = 74.6% - 9.6% (CD) = 65%

Fire again, 65% + 54.8% = 119.8% and you just killed yourself. (this is also completely barring a map like caustic valley).

You merely blow yourself up more awesomely with the 20% and super awesomely by shooting that third shot in the override state in the first place while at 109% and gotten the same damn result.

Sorry, ran it through a spreadsheet. With the cooldown you would get 3 Alphas before shutdown. Only 180 damage in 9 seconds before a fairly long shutdown. My bad. Most mechs can shake that 180 damage right off.

What you aren't seeing is that this is the most extreme heat example. There are several fairly hot builds out there that alpha rarely because it makes them too hot who will, with coolant flush, be able to do so significantly increase their burst damage to drop a mech fast in a close brawl or even a medium range energy sniper. Most won't burn a coolant at long range because you can duck back, cool down, and reposition to fire again. You burn it when you need burst damage or, in the case of inexperienced players, when you have mismanaged your heat.

For many mechs that can do a lot of sustained damage before having to cool down, CF can extend the time they can do that damage significantly.

This fighting of this game depends on heat balance. Allowing a small cheat that you can buy for cbills or MC, breaks that balance. Even worse, in the non-pug matches that can be very close games, these will almost be required. Burst damage is that important.

Edited by Elwood Blues, 05 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Elwood Blues, on 05 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Sorry, ran it through a spreadsheet. With the cooldown you would get 3 Alphas before shutdown. Only 180 damage in 9 seconds before a fairly long shutdown. My bad. Most mechs can shake that 180 damage right off.

What you aren't seeing is that this is the most extreme heat example. There are several fairly hot builds out there that alpha rarely because it makes them too hot who will, with coolant flush, be able to do so significantly increase their burst damage to drop a mech fast in a close brawl or even a medium range energy sniper. Most won't burn a coolant at long range because you can duck back, cool down, and reposition to fire again. You burn it when you need burst damage or, in the case of inexperienced players, when you have mismanaged your heat.

For many mechs that can do a lot of sustained damage before having to cool down, CF can extend the time they can do that damage significantly.

This fighting of this game depends on heat balance. Allowing a small cheat that you can buy for cbills or MC, breaks that balance. Even worse, in the non-pug matches that can be very close games, these will almost be required. Burst damage is that important.

Unless they changed it, a fairly long shutdown = death still. I've fired 6 ppcs with my awesome before in the middle of the caderra and exploded while shutdown, but that was a while ago (pre ppc change). You're also still assuming perfect CT aim. Hitting an arm with 60 damage and then a leg is nowhere near as deadly as autoaim death that you keep describing.

Edited by hammerreborn, 05 March 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Elwood Blues]

A fairly long shutdown is only death if your opponent is still alive to attack you. Or, again, if they are still alive, if they have enough weapons left to make a difference.

A shutdown mech is better than a dead mech. A shutdown mech can come back up. Especially if the rest of your opponents are busy dealing with the rest of your team. You've done part of your job at that point. You killed one of the enemy without dying. If the other team focuses on you, you0 have still eliminated one of theirs and they are taking fire from the rest of your team.

This is, again, an extreme case. Many other builds are going to be able to abuse CF to drop mechs fast without shutting down.

[TexAce]

When this thread started I was thinking "this question is so stupid I bet he is trolling. Let's see how far he can get".

Now look at that.
I applaud you OP.

[Deamhan]

Now that it has been clarified, it is clearly pay to win.

The short of it is that each module allows for a single flush. In order to get the same benefit using the c-bill modules as you would with the mc module, you have to buy both c-bill modules and stack them. This means that for the same benefit, the mc module will save you a module slot allowing you to bring more of the other modules.

The fact of the matter is that saving on limited module space (hell, I think the k2 gets a maximum of just two after you unlock master) is a greater benefit than having the option to flush at reduced amounts (the base 15% and 20% instead of the combined 35%) two seperate times.

If the devs honestly believe that this is a fair tradeoff, they clearly do not know their own game. I'm refering to practicality. There is such a thing as being "blinded by numbers".

[torraque]

An MC purchase that gives you an advantage over a C-bill only user is "Pay To Win." There's literally no way around it. This is an incredibly slippery slope, how long until we have MC-only LB-X slug rounds, or MC-only special munitions for missiles? This development is incredibly frustrating and disappointing, the game was just getting to a point where it was a lot of fun.

[Orzorn]

Thank you very much for the update Bryan.

However, I still do not like it. I think any such disparrity is just asking for an imbalance, or rather, introducing coolant flush when the entire system has been balanced without it existing is a poor idea. Airstrikes? Cool. Artillery? Badass. Coolant flush? Please, no. I didn't like its effect on the game in MW4 (or MW3), and I don't believe I'll like it here.

Besides that, the MC version of coolant flush is totally P2W. One more module is better. You can try to play off how the two seperate c-bill modules will let you have more control, but you only ever would flush at near 100%, and losing 15% or 20% individually doesn't really make much sense, because most builds are going to stick around high heat for a long time. Once you hit that point, you either don't find a place to stop and have to slow yourself down (in which 35% dump would be best), or you find a place to hide and you lose all of your heat.

Also, can anyone post where they talked about air strikes and artillery? Someone mentioned an update on how the MC versions of those worked (something about air strikes being faster for MC, but doing less damage?). Just from thinking about those differences, it seems like that is a much better system to balance them out, where one isn't an obvious advantage over the other (although gameplay testing may show otherwise). But for the coolant flush? I'm convinced one is an obvious advantage. Which is not good.

Its honestly the same thing that could have happened with hero mechs. One mech could have become the dominate variant. Imagine, for instance, that the Raven 3L didn't exist as a standard mech, but as a hero mech, and it had some other advantages. That would have been P2W simply due to the imbalances in the game at the time (even if the mech itself wasn't inherently unbalanced). The same issue could arise with the different air strike modules, no matter how balanced their differences may appear on paper. But as I said, the coolant flush doesn't even look balanced on paper, at least to me.

Thanks for your response, regardless of the situation, Bryan. I hope you will consider these points.

[Protection]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

No. Arty and Air Strikes work differently.

Paul is going to post the details shortly.

Here's some highlights.

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Unacceptable.

By restricting and limiting and handicapping free players out of competitive play, you kill competitive play even for the paying customers. To have a level playing field they have to have access to the same equipment. Hero mechs was too far for some, but most of us were able to stomach it. This is a whole new low.

I was planning on buying MC to get that silly Cicada and some paint today. Now I'm probably never going to purchase MC ever again. If we can't have fair and legitimate competition, without paid-only, tiered equipment, then there isn't much reason for many of us to stick around.

Stop stealing bad business practices from World of Tanks. Whichever MBA Business failure at IGP came up with this one should be fired and made certain never to work in the games industry again.

Change this tiered hierarchy before a huge swath of you player base quits for good.

[Tincan Nightmare]

What really worries me is the comment about how the stats 'may be adjusted.' Makes you wonder, if everyone just buys the 20% c-bill option and no one is buying the mc option, how long until that adjustment is upwards in percentage. Be real fun later if that mc coolant flush ends up at 40, 45, or 50 percent down the road. Especially if people that buy the mc option start complaining to them about how they paid real money for something that isn't better than the free option. Wonder which side they will come down on, where the money is or the free player.

[yamishan]

.....paying real money to get an item that does more and/or takes up less space then the ingame currency equivalent is an advantage to the paying player which is what pay to win is ... an advantage to the paying player .....


now u add to that mix the fact all new players are in trials which cannot be modified to have these items are at an even greater disadvantage making the starting player experience almost as bad if not worse then pre cadet bonus era

then u add to it the fact that 4-man and 8-man teams can now collectively have a mixed assortment of artie and air and coolant flushes increasing the advantage ... if they use MC versions which are inherently stronger based on either space or power or a mix of both ... u only increase the advantage for paying people not by 1 person but by up to 8 people per game so for example the CF options when being used in concurrence with other actual modules (cause whos gonna give up that 150M extra sight and lock on ecm etc etc for a miserly extra slot wasted to equal the MC version ?) giving a team a potential boost of 120%-160% of extra weapons fire (however u limit it with times of use / per item) still ends up being an advantage that is not going to be able to overcome with either skill or ingame currency or being limited to a mech with 4 module slots instead of say teh 2-3 that most mechs have.


quite simply put that is 120%-160% of advantage given to a paying player ...and is not being received by the average player who is only running casual and might actually pull in more friends who will dump money into the game .as they now leave because the game is balanced in favor of those paying cash and now dont get in game and therefor dont get thier friends in game which means u end up losing a player base esp since most casual players will in fact put money into a game at least once if they play and they enjoy it enough and end up spending time on it ...



and who wants to even bother trying when u get stomped cause the other guy can dump anywhere between 10cents to $20 dollars a day on the game when u either cant or cant be bothered to at that moment cause u havent decided if its a game worth spending your free time on .....


simply put u just **** on your whole idea of making it easier for the new player to like the game ... **** on everyone who cant or doesnt want to spend $30-$500 a month just to have an equal playing field



and u also by putting in a coolant item when u had previously promised that such an item would not exist thereby hurting your credibility as a company because now theres proof that u dont hold to your own promises and commitments.

[Joanna Conners]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

No. Arty and Air Strikes work differently.

Paul is going to post the details shortly.

Here's some highlights.

• There are cooldown timers. Cooldown timers make sure there is a space between shots and prevents a team coordinating a single massive strike.
  
• CB Version does more damage but is slower to target. 10,000 CB
  
• Version does less damage but is faster to target. 25
  
• Only one of each can be equipped.
  
• Only one user per match.
  
• Consumed when used.

Stop being so reasonable, Bryan! You're supposed to be incompetent, lazy, greedy and the spawn of ***** himself by creating a pay to win game.

Your facts are getting in the way of people demonizing PGI.

I, for one, am deeply insulted by your common sense and well-thought out approach to this. I'm taking my mech dolls and going home.

Deamhan, on 05 March 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Now that it has been clarified, it is clearly pay to win.

The short of it is that each module allows for a single flush. In order to get the same benefit using the c-bill modules as you would with the mc module, you have to buy both c-bill modules and stack them. This means that for the same benefit, the mc module will save you a module slot allowing you to bring more of the other modules.

The fact of the matter is that saving on limited module space (hell, I think the k2 gets a maximum of just two after you unlock master) is a greater benefit than having the option to flush at reduced amounts (the base 15% and 20% instead of the combined 35%) two seperate times.

If the devs honestly believe that this is a fair tradeoff, they clearly do not know their own game. I'm refering to practicality. There is such a thing as being "blinded by numbers".

Same benefit? You mean superior right? I'd take two coolant flushes of lesser power over one big one.

[HRR Insanity]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Depends on the package. 10 cents on the low end. Me personally, I prefer the strategy of having two shots over 1. I'm willing to sacrifice the space to gain a bit more of a tactical advantage.

Make a c-bill version that is the same as the MC version or it's just pay to win.

PS: Coolant flush is a dumb addition. Better to get rid of it completely.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 05 March 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Elizander]

I'd prefer coolant working as a heat sink booster over 10 seconds when used. 70%-75% more heat sink efficiency on SHS and 35%-50% more heat sink efficiency on DHS. That's just me though. It will keep the slow pace of the game rather than forcing everyone into high alpha strike builds to get early kills.

Edited by Elizander, 05 March 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Joanna Conners]

HRR Insanity, on 05 March 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Make a c-bill version that is the same as the MC version or it's just pay to win.

Screw that. The C-bill version is superior. I don't want it nerfed.

[HRR Insanity]

Demona, on 05 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Screw that. The C-bill version is superior. I don't want it nerfed.

As long as the c-bill version takes up 2 module slots it is inferior. Regardless of how much 'jazz hands' Bryan is showing.

[Joanna Conners]

HRR Insanity, on 05 March 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

As long as the c-bill version takes up 2 module slots it is inferior. Regardless of how much 'jazz hands' Bryan is showing.

Inferior because I get two flushes instead of one? Right. Cool story, though.

[HRR Insanity]

Demona, on 05 March 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Inferior because I get two flushes instead of one? Right. Cool story, though.

Inferior because for the same total cooling (35%), I can also fit in an Airstrike or some other useful module.

That is a clear advantage and pay to win.

If there was a c-bill version that cooled 35% and took only one slot... then maybe not.

All they need to do is provide a c-bill and MC cost for everything. Then it's not pay to win... unless the c-bill costs are ridiculous.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 05 March 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Mystere]

Chou Senwan, on 05 March 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

I don't like it.

How about this solution? If you equip an MC coolant pod, one random person on the enemy team gets a free coolant pod of the same amount.

Sarcastic or not, you're just being ridiculous.

[Deamhan]

Demona, on 05 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Same benefit? You mean superior right? I'd take two coolant flushes of lesser power over one big one.

No I mean the same 35%

[Joanna Conners]

Deamhan, on 05 March 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

No I mean the same 35%

Only if used simultaneously. I prefer the benefit of two smaller flushes.