160 replies to this topic

[Silversteel]

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

I don't know where to start.

MWO is most certainly not an MMO. There's no persistence, it isn't concurrently 'massive'. It's Multiplayer Online Game, like World of Tanks, League of Legends, DoTA etc.

Next, as has been already confirmed several times, both the C-Bill consumable AND the MC consumable can only be used once. The MC version will save you a module slot and give the same effect that will otherwise require 2 slots.

The accepted definition of P2W is the ability to acquire something for real money, that can otherwise NOT be gotten with in-game money.

You cannot get a Cicada with missile hard points with C-Bills. Similar doesn't cut it.

Once again I've come to conclusion that many MWO players are new to the online gaming space and are unaware of what is or is not a significant concern.

I know that the CB version can only be used one time each but as i read it you dont have to use them both at once. If this is incorrect please point me to the information.

There is no accepted definition of P2W you can read different statements everywhere. The one i mostly know is "P2W = a game imbalance due to the ability to buy stuff which gives an advantage that can not be obtained with out the use of money"

The urban dictionary defines it as "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Wikipedia says "Critics of the free-to-play approach are concerned that if players that paid for special items subsequently become better at a multiplayer game than those who did not purchase the same items, then it will not be as enjoyable as other games since players who paid more money are more successful than those who simply rely on skill"

So the definitions are similar but not really exact, at least thats what i think.

As to "Once again I've come to conclusion that many MWO players are new to the online gaming space and are unaware of what is or is not a significant concern."
I guess i am new to this I started with UO got to Daoc had fun times in SWG, visited WOT and some other games and landed in MWO when the game was closed beta.

Edited by Silversteel, 06 March 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Silversteel, on 06 March 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I guess i am new to this I started with UO got to Daoc had fun times in SWG, visited WOT and some other games and landed in MWO when the game was closed beta.

You've played WoT and still don't understand how we're going down a similar path as Gold Ammo?

[I am]

On a side note I wish more people would post in this thread. It is getting a little long, mostly suggestions. Finally around page 4-5, I start giving feedback as to my own experiences trying the various build suggestions out.

Would love to hear from a larger portion of thecommunity, whetehr that be criticisms of my conclusions, or added build suggestions.

http://mwomercs.com/...er/page__st__80

Hope you all have a great day! Just think about adding to it, your own thoughts, opinions, and experiences. Maybe taking a little break from the negativity of general chat is just what you needed but did not realize.

Edited by I am, 06 March 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Thirdstar]

I am, on 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

On a side note I wish more people would post in this thread. It is getting a little long, mostly suggestions. Finally around page 4-5, I start giving feedback as to my own experiences trying the various build suggestions out.

Would love to hear from a larger portion of thecommunity, whetehr that be criticisms of my conclusions, or added build suggestions.

http://mwomercs.com/...er/page__st__80

Hope you all have a great day! Just think about adding to it, your own thoughts, opinions, and experiences. Maybe taking a little break from the negativity of general chat is just what you needed but did not realize.

It's funny how when you're not trolling, you learn how to use paragraphs. Imagine that.

[I am]

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

You've played WoT and still don't understand how we're going down a similar path as Gold Ammo?

Just saw this and had to chime in. WoT gold has the same pen as WoT AP. People that rely on it, are laughed at by those who know they can do as well without it. Its a running inside joke among the best WoT players. I bet the same would be true here, it would help the sub par to better compete against those that are so good they dont need it and do just as well without it. They would be happy, the better players would still win anyways, and the developer would get more money. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by I am, 06 March 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[Arcaist]

Can´t agree more with you, mate!

[Apnu]

Atheus, on 05 March 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

My bad. I'm sorry I thought Pay to Win meant that you could buy something with real-world cash that is otherwise unavailable which would give you a measurable competitive advantage, not literally automatically winning after you pay, but Hamm3r has cleared this all up. Big misunderstanding! It's totally fine like this. I look forward to MC only clan tech that isn't "P2W" btw. Seems reasonable after reading these reasonable posts.

You presume a slippery slope that hasn't appeared yet. There is zero evidence to suggest that clan tech will be MC only. If that happens, then I will say this game is P2W. That hasn't happened, and I am not going to jump to conclusions.

As for the consumables, I believe they are balanced. With coolant flush, you can get one T3 flush (for a trivial amount of MC), or you can get two flushes for "free". You can actually squeeze out one more alpha strike before shutting down with T1+T2 "free" pods than you can with one T3 pod. IMO, that's a good balance between MC and c-bill consumables. Its a smart move by PGI and in no way is P2W.

[Thirdstar]

I am, on 06 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Just saw this and had to chime in. WoT gold has the same pen as WoT AP. People that rely on it, are laughed at by those who know they can do as well without it. Its a running inside joke among the best WoT players. I bet the same would be true here, it would help the sub par to better compete against those that are so good they dont need it and do just as well without it. They would be happy, the better players would still win anyways, and the developer would get more money. Just my 2 cents.

Oh how much you've grown since your first post. It's like you've learnt an entirely new language.

I am, on 27 February 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

Can someone help me please. I like this game. It is fun to pilot, the robots are cool, and i like changing things in the garage. I am very bad i think, and have no luck winning. I die every game, in a fireball. I want to be good and help my team. I buy my first mech unit, and hoped it would help. It is a CTF-2X model. But it is even worse now. I miss alot and some mech units are super fast. Some have so many weapons. They kill me every time.I want to get a kill, but they surround me and my screen bounces and it is hard to aim until I am dead. What should I put on my mech unit. How should I play it. Can I turn off the screen bounce? Please advise me so i can have fun. Which weapon is the best. How should I play when I am attacked? How much camoflouge can I buy, and how can I put the most armor on possible. I want the most armor I can have. I want to stop dying all the time. Thank you for your help.

Little troll's all grown up.

I am, on 01 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

The more I read about this game, the more bummed I am. I took time to read through here, and see complaints about alot of problems.I lost 4 times in a row, and stopped playing, and started reading. It makes a new player feel pretty bummed. I like the graphics. I am getting teamed up on, it seems. I wont be able to join a team. I have obligations and things which make playing with a microphone something I cannot do. I say thank you I got invites and messages there are some nice people who play. The offer for training was so cool, if I could have and use a microphone alot. For the nice players. also there are some mean ones. I dont want to play versus teams of rude gamers, in a match I was called a noob. I even had a team member shoot me. Why treat players this way. Why use a word like pug. That is a dog.

[Silversteel]

I dont see it as a similar Path.

Everybody can use Goldammo and dmg an enemy tank, you dont need any more skill at aiming.
The enemy player who is being shot at with gold ammo cant counter this, no amount of skill will help him against it.
There was until now no similar type of ammo for ingame money. Of course a skilled player doesnt need gold ammo cause he knows where to aim.

Tier3 Coolant flush gives you a 35% heat reduction it can help someone who is really bad at heat managment or give an experienced player another alpha strike.
Tier2 Coolant flush gives you a 20% heat reduction someone who is really bad at heat managment doesnt get as much use out of it, but an experienced palyer can still use it to get another alpha.

Edited by Silversteel, 06 March 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[Thirdstar]

Silversteel, on 06 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I dont see it as a similar Path.

Everybody can use Goldammo and dmg an enemy tank, you dont need any more skill at aiming.
The enemy player who is being shot at with gold ammo cant counter this, no amount of skill will help him against it.
There was until now no similar type of ammo for ingame money. Of course a skilled player doesnt need gold ammo cause he knows where to aim.

Tier3 Coolant flush gives you a 35% heat reduction it can help someone who is really bad at heat managment or give an experienced player another alpha strike.
Tier2 Coolant flush gives you a 20% heat reduction someone who is really bad at heat managment doesnt get as much use out of it, but an experienced palyer can still use it to get another alpha.

You seem unaware that the top tier competitive section of WoT all make heavy use of Gold Ammo, it also universally used in Clan Wars.

The current competitive metagame in MWO is very alpha heavy. By your own words, an experienced player can use a single slot MC consumable to great advantage. There's no counter to this either, an opponent doesn't even know when they're about to take another alpha.

If you're going to C-Bill route you have to sacrifice an extra module to get the exact same effect.

This current iteration of MC consumable sets a terrible precedent. That's 90% of the problem. If one consumable is okay, then at how many will we draw the line?

[Apnu]

Silversteel, on 06 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Tier3 Coolant flush gives you a 35% heat reduction it can help someone who is really bad at heat managment or give an experienced player another alpha strike.
Tier2 Coolant flush gives you a 20% heat reduction someone who is really bad at heat managment doesnt get as much use out of it, but an experienced palyer can still use it to get another alpha.

Therefore, they are balanced. But also consider the skilled player with T1 & T2 flushes equipped. They wil be able to get two alphas off instead of one with T3.

[Apnu]

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

The current competitive metagame in MWO is very alpha heavy. By your own words, an experienced player can use a single slot MC consumable to great advantage. There's no counter to this either, an opponent doesn't even know when they're about to take another alpha.

This ignores the fact, as stated by the devs, that you can equip both T1 & T2 coolant flushes. Said experienced player now gets two alphas instead of one with T3 and burning MC.

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

This current iteration of MC consumable sets a terrible precedent. That's 90% of the problem. If one consumable is okay, then at how many will we draw the line?

Not enough time has passed for a precedent to be made. Its been, like, one day. There isn't enough data and history to say if there is a precedent of anything. So far PGI has gone to great lengths to keep things as balanced as they know, and tweak things that imbalance the game, though they can't finished tweaking nor addressing everything. Look at ECM, they're still tinkering with it.

Edited by Apnu, 06 March 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

Hey Thirdstar

I feel like you are my opposite on this forum. Similar mannerisms. How dare you start a post with "I don't even know where to start" when I used the exact line earlier!

Though at this point I think PGI gets the picture that the consumable system is a poor way to implement things. I agree it is stupid and has the ability to turn that path but I haven't seen it go that far and I can see a way to fix it or fine tune it so it works properly.

[I am]

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Oh how much you've grown since your first post. It's like you've learnt an entirely new language.



Little troll's all grown up.

Third,

You are very intelligent. You can keep fighting upsteam, arguing against marginal game mechanic changes, arguing against the inevitable. OR You can turn that intellectual ability towards more productive forum endeavors. I know you mean well. I know you do. I just don't want to see you beating your head agaisnt a brick wall for not.

Here, let me invite you again. Come post in my thread, please. http://mwomercs.com/...65#entry1992565 This time, make it constructive. There is alot of good substantive content there which you can chew on and reply to. If you want to flame me, at least do so for the conclusions I have drawn regarding the nature of the thread, the ultimate DDC brawler build.

Your above personal attacks. Your above "trolling". Your a genuinely good guy, right? Hope to see your next post rings a more constructive tone.

Edited by I am, 06 March 2013 - 07:49 AM.

[Silversteel]

I must confess i have never been part of the top tier competitive stuff in WoT. Just some fun tournaments, mainly cause the clanwars and everythign needs to much time and you have to be in some big big clan.

Apnu got what i wanted to say

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Good Lord Lyrik, acting like a tool in a thread about respect... and then you quote me about double standards... wow. Unreal. I am so happy I am not you. I was posting that I respect the OP, I was asking people to not trivialize things other people are passionate about... I was polite the whole way through.... how you htink that's trolling is beyond me.

Tichorius Davion, on 06 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Though at this point I think PGI gets the picture that the consumable system is a poor way to implement things.

I hope they do but we can't be certain unless they say so.

Tichorius Davion, on 06 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

I agree it is stupid and has the ability to turn that path but I haven't seen it go that far and I can see a way to fix it or fine tune it so it works properly.

It would be so easy to remedy, yes. Just add a cbill cost to the tier 3, and an MC cost to the Tier 1 and 2. That's not really the question though, the question is, WILL they do anything about this? Once implemented, any pay to win, no matter how trivial it may seem at first, 99 times out of a hundred always get's worse in the long run as more and more is added.

The thing is, some of recognize this path from games that have done exactly this before, we know where this road goes, and we don't want to end up there. Only way to be CERTAIN that we don't go down it, is to never go down it. If that means boarding the off-ramp out of this game then so be it, but we'd prefer to not have to.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 06 March 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Good Lord Lyrik, acting like a tool in a thread about respect... and then you quote me about double standards... wow. Unreal. I am so happy I am not you. I was posting that I respect the OP, I was asking people to not trivialize things other people are passionate about... I was polite the whole way through.... how you htink that's trolling is beyond me.



I hope they do but we can't be certain unless they say so.



It would be so easy to remedy, yes. Just add a cbill cost to the tier 3, and an MC cost to the Tier 1 and 2. That's not really the question though, the question is, WILL they do anything about this? Once implemented, any pay to win, no matter how trivial it may seem at first, 99 times out of a hundred always get's worse in the long run as more and more is added.

The thing is, some of recognize this path from games that have done exactly this before, we know where this road goes, and we don't want to end up there. Only way to be CERTAIN that we don't go down it, is to never go down it. If that means boarding the off-ramp out of this game then so be it, but we'd prefer to not have to.

Bwahaha with the recent changes it is much much better. I say more limitations on the amount of strikes used in a game.

If every consumable can be as good as an MC one then we are golden. You can't even complain about it on a competitive level because most people who are on that level should be maxing out everything including modules.

With this implementation P2W is steered well clear off that path. Besides PGI stated very early in development that they were against it. They proved they dislike P2W too.

Btw Roland without viewing you through my patented rage goggles I can see you are very rational in your arguments and while you do keep it polite, like any other human being it does slip sometimes and the tone of some of your arguments can be taken with offense.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 March 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

Btw Roland without viewing you through my patented rage goggles I can see you are very rational in your arguments and while you do keep it polite, like any other human being it does slip sometimes and the tone of some of your arguments can be taken with offense.

I know this. I don't apologize for it either, it's a part of who I am, I have no need of apology for having hands, etc, do I? Therefore while I have an alligator mouth, I don't apologize for it, I just try to keep it in check, although I do apologize when and where needed if I make a mistake.

As for the pay to win... I do hope your right but experience tells me this road is all too familiar, and experience tells me hope is irrational. I still do it. I don't have much choice honestly. Oh, it's not because I don't have options in case this beta goes pay to win, I do have options. The TT game, or do what the MW5 guys did on my own time. However, I'd prefer this game to not go that way.

While the presentation gives me reasons to hold my tongue until - say, the 26th or so - I still feel ill at ease over this. I've lived long enough to know when to trust my instincts and when not, and right now my instincts are sayin' this is going to go bad.

Long story short... I'd be happy to be wrong. I really would. I even hope I am, but my experience over the last nearly two decades with game developers, and my instincts both are tellin' me I'm a fool for hoping on this.

Edited by Sir Roland MXIII, 06 March 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[DEN_Ninja]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 06 March 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I know this. I don't apologize for it either, it's a part of who I am, I have no need of apology for having hands, etc, do I? Therefore while I have an alligator mouth, I don't apologize for it, I just try to keep it in check, although I do apologize when and where needed if I make a mistake.

As for the pay to win... I do hope your right but experience tells me this road is all too familiar, and experience tells me hope is irrational. I still do it. I don't have much choice honestly. Oh, it's not because I don't have options in case this beta goes pay to win, I do have options. The TT game, or do what the MW5 guys did on my own time. However, I'd prefer this game to not go that way.

While the presentation gives me reasons to hold my tongue until - say, the 26th or so - I still feel ill at ease over this. I've lived long enough to know when to trust my instincts and when not, and right now my instincts are sayin' this is going to go bad.

Long story short... I'd be happy to be wrong. I really would. I even hope I am, but my experience over the last nearly two decades with game developers, and my instincts both are tellin' me I'm a fool for hoping on this.

Haha, every forumwarrior and their mother thinks I hold PGI in the highest regards on a golden pedestal. They can mess it up. They really came close. Where the whiners see the bad I try my best to see the good. I worry too but this new system is vastly superior and as long as the consumables are within reason I see no reason to be gloomy about it.

Been there done that with every computer lab period back in middle/high school ending in a bunch of kids being angry at people with golden guns. However that was back when Koreans still held the vast majority of the F2P games. The western market is blown wide open now. A lot of big name developers are making free to play games. HoN, League, Dota 2, Firefall, MWO, Command and Conquer, and etc.

MOBA broke the F2P Scene open and proved you can make a profitable F2P game without P2W. The gaming Industry loves to ride out waves. Should be a good year.

[Zaptruder]

Respect is a two way street.

You respect me, I respect you.

You **** in my breakfast, I **** in yours. Kapiche?