239 replies to this topic

[Team Leader]

You know how WW2 got started? Ever heard of appeasement?
"Oh it's just a little bit, I'm sure he'll stop with that"

[The Legendary Samurai]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Fine you pay it. I haven't even logged in since they announced it. The $50 I was going to spend on the X-5 and more bays remains unspent, and a $1000 a year (at the rate I've been going) vanishes.

...and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

I was going to buy the X-5, and since the $99.95 MC package is the most efficient, I was going to purchase that and keep the unspent MC for future purchases. I've decided to wait to see if they reverse this P2W move.

If they don't, I won't spend another dime on this game.

[Sifright]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I would like someone to explain to me the decisive advantage of dumping one's heat 35% as compared to 15% ONCE (I repeat, ONCE) in an entire match is some game breaking advantage worthy of the ***t-posting hot-button phrase: "Pay-to-Win."

You don't get to dump 35% every 30-60 seconds.. or even every 2 minutes.. so you don't get to run a new hotter build with any success.

If you're really finding yourself heat-inefficient and would rather purchase a module than fix your build, there is one for 15% (or if you're really desperate, there are two for combined 35%) that you may use to attempt to fight effectively for about 6 seconds.

(I imagine PGI didn't want to add them in the first place, as I agree that one-coolant flush isn't even worth the module space. It was probably from IGP, but regardless of that.. it's still practically useless.)
(I'd say momentary save with the most effective use.)

So other than the lame-duck "It's usable in game" argument, what advantage worthy of "P2W" does this 35% module give you?

depending on map 35% gives me any where from 1 to 3 extra Alphas with my A1 Catapult.

Given that I can smash an enemy mech apart in 2-3 Salvos guaranteed assuming netcode doesn't spank me, the ability to fire off that many extra salvos will grant me a huge benefit in the middle of a heavy brawl.

You are barmy if you think this wont make a big difference.

Especially as my A1 is already built to achieve 3-5 alphas continuous fire before the next shot takes me into shutdown Dependant on map.

[Livewyr]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

It's not even about the Coolant to me.

It's about the standard it is setting.

When is it too much?

If 15% extra cooling doesn't bug you, what if they release a consumable that ups your damage by 30% for 30 seconds? Or a consumable that disables an enemy mech for 5 seconds?

Where does it stop?

Once you start adding items that are better due to using cash to purchase, it opens up a door you can't close.

I have a little more faith in PGI than that.. think about it.. they could've just released an MC cooling pod and MC airstrike without Cbill alternatives.. nobody's putting a gun to their head. Clearly they thought ahead

"while we want to give MC purchase an incentive, there should be a Cbill alternative within the concept."

I don't think they're stupid, or trying to kill their game with P2W...

[Noobzorz]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

I would like someone to explain to me the decisive advantage of dumping one's heat 35% as compared to 15% ONCE (I repeat, ONCE) in an entire match is some game breaking advantage worthy of the ***t-posting hot-button phrase: "Pay-to-Win."

You don't get to dump 35% every 30-60 seconds.. or even every 2 minutes.. so you don't get to run a new hotter build with any success.

If you're really finding yourself heat-inefficient and would rather purchase a module than fix your build, there is one for 15% (or if you're really desperate, there are two for combined 35%) that you may use to attempt to fight effectively for about 6 seconds.

(I imagine PGI didn't want to add them in the first place, as I agree that one-coolant flush isn't even worth the module space. It was probably from IGP, but regardless of that.. it's still practically useless.)
(I'd say momentary save with the most effective use.)

So other than the lame-duck "It's usable in game" argument, what advantage worthy of "P2W" does this 35% module give you?

I hate to be rude, but if you don't see why this is P2W, then maybe you don't understand competitive balance that well?

It's an advantage. For money. It is small, but significant. The day is going to come when that 35% + an extra module is going to win someone a game. In fact, it's going to come a lot. In the past few days, I can already think off the top of my head of two occasions where a match has come down to two single module mechs shooting the hell out of each other and the winner just barely coring the other. If one of those guys had been able to dump 35% of his heat with a button press, he could easily have won.

So there's that, which is already totally unacceptable (and, honestly, I don't see how you could possible argue otherwise; it's sort of breathtaking that anyone has managed to convince themselves that this isn't a big deal), but this always goes exactly one way. World of Tanks didn't start off P2W.

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Fine you pay it. I haven't even logged in since they announced it. The $50 I was going to spend on the X-5 and more bays remains unspent, and a $1000 a year (at the rate I've been going) vanishes.

...and I'm willing to bet I'm not alone.

I don't think you understand.. I'm not going to be buying ANY coolant pods (MC, or Cbill) because they're simply not worth the space, let alone the cost...

And I'll only be buying the Cbill Airstrikes because the difference between one and the other is Speed vs Damage.. I'll choose the Free higher Damage route...

[Budor]

I wonder which one of those bars tells me i can still do a shitload of dmg? Maybe the green one? But it sure has a major disadvantage like taking more space..no?!

Edited by Budor, 06 March 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[ssm]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

(...)

Its not actually coolant flush being added that irks me. Its the premise, this is testing the waters, if they can quell the outrage, there will be more, and there is NO assurance that they will keep it "slight" or even that there will be 5-6 more MC only consumables that you WILL need if you want to be competitive.

(...)

I'm not sure if this is testing waters, slippery slope or Pandora's box (nobody actually presented reasonable argument that it does)

I'm pretty sure that if developers cave to the Great Coolant Outrage of '13 and restrict their revenue-making to fuzzy dice, colours and mechbays there is a significant risk of this game being killed. Sorry guys, it's business, money needs to keep flowing.

Edited by ssm, 06 March 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Hekalite]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Just like above: if going 67mph on a 65mph road isn't a felony, I don't know what is.



I'm trying to figure out how to express to the numbers gang that the context is just as important as the numbers when making a P2W argument... I've tried road speeds thus far.. anyone have any ideas?

Unfortunately, in highly competitive play where two equally matched teams would have had a 50/50 shot at winning, even a slight advantage will tip one to the win. That's just simple math. I agree that in the vast majority of games it will have no noticable impact, but that's not really the point. And it's not just the coolant flush, I can easily see how a highly disciplined team could turn faster airstrikes x 8 into a serious advantage.

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

I don't think you understand.. I'm not going to be buying ANY coolant pods (MC, or Cbill) because they're simply not worth the space, let alone the cost...

And I'll only be buying the Cbill Airstrikes because the difference between one and the other is Speed vs Damage.. I'll choose the Free higher Damage route...

Ok then, don't.

As I said, not a penny from me until it goes away.

[Sifright]

Budor, on 06 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

I wonder which one of those bars tells me i can still do a shitload of dmg? Mybe the green one? But ist sure has a major disadvantage like taking more space..no?!

None of them because the other dude hit you with a T3 Airstrike and Artillery whilst your only had a single Cbill flush.

[Livewyr]

Noobzorz, on 06 March 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I hate to be rude, but if you don't see why this is P2W, then maybe you don't understand competitive balance that well?

It's an advantage. For money. It is small, but significant. The day is going to come when that 35% + an extra module is going to win someone a game. In fact, it's going to come a lot. In the past few days, I can already think off the top of my head of two occasions where a match has come down to two single module mechs shooting the hell out of each other and the winner just barely coring the other. If one of those guys had been able to dump 35% of his heat with a button press, he could easily have won.

So there's that, which is already totally unacceptable (and, honestly, I don't see how you could possible argue otherwise; it's sort of breathtaking that anyone has managed to convince themselves that this isn't a big deal), but this always goes exactly one way. World of Tanks didn't start off P2W.

You think the possibility of that happening is going to make that one-time use module worth even it's space? Over an Airstrike? (or any other useful module out there? )


And yes, World of Tanks started off Pay to Win...Gold rounds.

[Noobzorz]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

I have a little more faith in PGI than that.. think about it.. they could've just released an MC cooling pod and MC airstrike without Cbill alternatives.. nobody's putting a gun to their head. Clearly they thought ahead

"while we want to give MC purchase an incentive, there should be a Cbill alternative within the concept."

I don't think they're stupid, or trying to kill their game with P2W...

Of course they did. They released an inferior C Bill set and called it "more tactical" since you got two uses. Not only did this confuse a lot of people into completely misunderstanding what was happening, but it also duped people into thinking they were equivalent. This whole thing seems calculated to avoid outrage while still delivering P2W, honestly. It might have been an accident, but if these guys are as clever as we think they are (and they'd have to be pretty stupid to "accidentally" unbalance the game anyway), it was deliberate obfuscation to get people like you on board so the community is split on the issue.

[Yokaiko]

ssm, on 06 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure that if developers cave to the Great Coolant Outrage of '13 and restrict their revenue-making to fuzzy dice, colours and mechbays there is a significant risk of this game being killed. Sorry guys, it's business, money needs to keep flowing.

Its dead to me either way.

[Padic]

Team Leader, on 06 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

You know how WW2 got started? Ever heard of appeasement?
"Oh it's just a little bit, I'm sure he'll stop with that"

That is a gross over-simplification. Wow.

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Ok then, don't.

As I said, not a penny from me until it goes away.

So you're just being stubborn until this is exactly like LoL. (which is not applicable)

Got it.

[Whompity]

Team Leader, on 06 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

You know how WW2 got started? Ever heard of appeasement?
"Oh it's just a little bit, I'm sure he'll stop with that"

Did you... did... did he... did you just... you wouldn't... nobody would... did... did you just try to illustrate the current potential P2W issue by comparing it to the appeasement of ******? You did? No... seriously? You DID? You realize that when you this you lose all the things, right?

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

So you're just being stubborn until this is exactly like LoL. (which is not applicable)

Got it.

Never played LoL, I have no idea how the system goes.

[Thoren Wolf]

It doesn't matter how much "P2W" items they put into a game, any game. If a player sucks, they just suck and no amount of consumable is going to save their six from the enemy they face. "P2W" is a useless argument in most cases as the good players, even the average player, isnt going to waste the money to buy something they don't need. It will always be those players that are inept at playing the game that pay out the money for these "needful things".

[Sifright]

Olivia Maybach, on 06 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Did you... did... did he... did you just... you wouldn't... nobody would... did... did you just try to illustrate the current potential P2W issue by comparing it to the appeasement of ******? You did? No... seriously? You DID? You realize that when you this you lose all the things, right?

in fairness to him shutting up and taking being defecated on never leads to the person defecating in your face going on my goodness I'm terrible sorry I didn't realise you didn't enjoy that.