239 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

Stoicblitzer, on 06 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

Are we arguing about the same thing? I know you heff to be right so I'll let you figure it out.

Again you didn't read, I quoted a clarification from Paul, because what YOU quoted was ambiguous. With a link.

I'll let you figure that out. Because I am, indeed, right.

[Sifright]

Stone Profit, on 06 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Coolant flush is for those people who cant seem to understand how to manage heat. Are you one of those? (not an attack just a question) I likely wont even equip coolant flush. Who needs it when you know how to play?

What, are you seriously telling me you don't see how the coolant flush allows players in every part of the skill spectrum to benefit? Arguably it's even more damaging at the top of end of play where even being able to partially fire your guns more can lead to you killing an enemy mech before he can do more damage to your team.

Stone Profit, on 06 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Actually they said the amount of heat reduction does scale based on how many heat sinks you have. 35% is for a mech with 110 dhs, more hs = more flushing.

This is true.

[Budor]

MaddMaxx, on 06 March 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

So wait a minute. When did they make the Flush Consumable ONLY an MC based purchase? Damn, I totally missed that update... At least be honest when you post ffs.

The 1slot 35% consumable is a MC only purchase. Theres an alternative. Which is worse.

[Pihoqahiak]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

They said that with the Hero Mechs.. who are clearly running about the battlefield owning everyone in their unique MC mech.
YLW: Fast, XL, AC20
(Don't have the Dragons, but I assume they have some unique trait)
Ilya: 3 UAC5s.
PBaby: Fastest Assault yet.
These mechs have clear advantages.. why aren't they mudstomping with their "numbers" P2W?

Because the core game mechanics has cost vs. benefit for achieving those capabilities. That helps keep those statistics in check, as opposed to something that costs less game mechanics wise just because it costs more real world currency. To be honest, to me, the coolant flush issue is a combination of it just plain being a terrible game mechanic to add which PGI developers have previously stated would not be implemented, and having the MC purchasable version slightly better just being the extra slap across the face with it. Coolant flush serves no role in the game other than allowing already abusive builds to be more abusive with another one or two alpha strikes back to back. That does not in any way make the game a more engaging, fun and immersive experience for anyone. It's not uncommon for mechs to be destroyed by a couple alpha strikes as it is now, and that's just going to get worse as the game progresses since all additional tech just increases lethality of mechs but there is nothing that will increase durability of mechs, unless they decide to triple armor instead of the current double armor value they gave mechs.

[Stone Profit]

Sifright, on 06 March 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

What, are you seriously telling me you don't see how the coolant flush allows players in every part of the skill spectrum to benefit? Arguably it's even more damaging at the top of end of play where even being able to partially fire your guns more can lead to you killing an enemy mech before he can do more damage to your team.



This is true.

Oh it lets them benifit. Im saying (and youd have gotten this if you had any reading comprehension skills) that a GOOD PLAYER has NO NEED of coolant flush as a GOOD PLAYER knows HEAT MANAGEMENT. (I went ahead and capitalized the important parts for your sub-HS reading comp skills Sig)

[Eddrick]

I'll just use the same thing I said in another thread. This is my view on it.

Eddrick, on 06 March 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

I don't think a 15% heat dump/1 Modual Slot differance between the C-Bill and MC version is enough to be considered P2W. But, in the whinners defence. It is a step in that direction.

[Ghostrider0067]

Sifright, on 06 March 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

What, are you seriously telling me you don't see how the coolant flush allows players in every part of the skill spectrum to benefit? Arguably it's even more damaging at the top of end of play where even being able to partially fire your guns more can lead to you killing an enemy mech before he can do more damage to your team.

Precisely. I addressed another poster with that same conclusion six posts prior to him on the same page. It's a ridiculous assertion to state that only low level/unskilled players will benefit from coolant flush. More highly skilled players are probably salivating at the chance to use it and lay waste to someone. Just imagine for a moment a team on TS, working together, and each having CF at their disposal. On the other side, you've got some equally skilled players mixed in with some puggers and no comms. Needless to say, that battle is going to be decidedly one sided and probably over quickly. Sure, highly skilled players may have a more effective knowledge of heat management, but that doesn't mean there aren't those who are eager to use CF despite that.

I've seen a few vids of 5/6 PPC Stalker builds. A mech like that somewhat lying in wait and armed with CF? Yeah.. tell me again how that's not OP...

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 06 March 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Strig, on 06 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

@Livewyr

The 20% stalker, on the other hand shuts down after the second alpha with or without the coolant flush. Sure they don't shutdown as long with it ... but it should still be obvious that there is a HUGE ADVANTAGE in the 35% flush.

This is a huge advantage and this doesn't even take into account extra slots used for other modules/consumable which actually compounds the issue.

That scenario is all well and good but is built in a vacuum. If that Atlas of yours is a DC, then yes, if not, what makes you think it won't fire back, you know with all the stuff a 100t Mech can carry?

Oh right, your will be 600+ meters out and that Atlas is going stand still for you for 12 seconds straight after taking a 60 Alpha? And if it is just standing there. Why the hell are you Flushing your Heat...?

One has to wonder if you even play the same game. Sure you will get a chance, every once and while to core an Atlas, bu that happens now. In the heat of the battle, unless the target is stationary, you are at exacting distance from, and never ever have to worry about another enemy Mechs that might be about, and then NEVER MISS?

Save your MC dude. Your a God of the Battlefield already and don't need that piddly little ADVANTAGE anyways.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 06 March 2013 - 09:13 AM.

[Livewyr]

vrok, on 06 March 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

They have different hardpoints yes but that doesn't translate into a factual advantage, that's why hero mechs in general are a grey area and have to be judged on a case by case basis. However, they have both been deemed worse overall than at least one of their normal variants.


Pure speculation. You can't argue against facts with faith. It's an undeniable factual advantage, unlike the hero mech examples you gave. That's why hero mechs are the grey borderline area, and this is clear cut P2W.

Ilya should be P2W by numbers too.. shall I fabricate a situation where the Ilya beats everything?

Too easy.

Ilya versus any mech at 600 meters: weapons don't Jam, Ilya wins. (almost 15 DPS..sustainable...at range)
That's Pay 2 Win.. in that situation
But the Ilya is not P2W...

Is the Ilya better than the Cataphract 4X? Yes
However, being Pay 2 Win is speculation.


Is the MC pod better than the Cbill Pod? Yes
However: Being Pay 2 Win is speculation as well..

[EgoSlayer]

Stone Profit, on 06 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

<snip>

Actually they said the amount of heat reduction does scale based on how many heat sinks you have. 35% is for a mech with 110 dhs, more hs = more flushing.

Which is exactly what I said in my message, twice. The percentage doesn't change, the actual amount of heat removed does change based on the number of heat sinks.

[Yokaiko]

Stone Profit, on 06 March 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Oh it lets them benifit. Im saying (and youd have gotten this if you had any reading comprehension skills) that a GOOD PLAYER has NO NEED of coolant flush as a GOOD PLAYER knows HEAT MANAGEMENT. (I went ahead and capitalized the important parts for your sub-HS reading comp skills Sig)

Incorrect assumption.

A good player that knows heat management AND has way to dump heat at will has an advantage against just heat management.

...from a someone who usually runs 1.2-1.3 on the heat scale.

[MaddMaxx]

Budor, on 06 March 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

The 1slot 35% consumable is a MC only purchase. Theres an alternative. Which is worse.

Oh, an alternative of "equal proportion" right? Riiiight.... got it.

[tenderloving]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

That's that lame-duck argument I keep seeing.

(technically, thinking like that.. any time you go over the speed limit (1kph/mph); you're being absolutely unsafe to every driver on the road, you should be locked up and have driving privileges removed. I'm glad the people in charge don't think like that...)

"Officer, I just edged 1 mile per hour over." "It's still 1 mile per hour, still dangerous, come with me."

Ridiculous, no?


(now 20-30 mph IS worthy of note.)

Ok, 20-30 mph is worth of note, but 1mph is not.

20mph over in a 70 mph zone is 28% more
20mph over in a 60 mph zone is 33% more
20mph over in a 50 mph zone is 40% more

35% is 15% more than 20%, which equals 75% more. It's math. A person with the MC flush gets 75% more benefit for his module than the guy with the cbill flush.

Aside from your argument being mathmatically silly, it's also not very forward thinking. What are the limits on what is "ridiculous" and what is "noteworthy" ? Is it a 5% advantage? 10%? Where do you draw the line?

[Orzorn]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Ilya should be P2W by numbers too..

Ilya has no jump jets.

This coolant flush? It is literally pay to win, because all it is are numbers. No different weapon types to consider, no change metagame, hitboxes, jump jets, jump sniping, etc. Just 35% compared to 20% (or one module slot used versus two used).

That's it.

It is pay to win.

There is no metagame to take into account here. Because the module does one thing, and one thing only. Flush heat. It does it better than the 20% one, or it does it with one more module slot to spare. It is better.

Do not forget that if these scale linearly, 20 heat sinks would be 70% cooling versus 40% cooling for the tier 2 module, which is now a 30% change as opposed to a 15% change, but as Tenderloving said above, its still a 75% difference in capability. Combine tier 1 and tier 2, of course, and you get the same cooling, but still have the issue of one extra module slot being used.

Think about that. A 75% difference in capabilities. Where do you draw the line, Livewyr? Does it have to be 100% difference? 200%?

And if you combine the tier 1 + tier 2, you're still out a module, so now we're comparing module differences (because the flush is the same), so now the tier 3 is 100% better (1 extra module).

So which is it. You take only the tier 2 and have a 75% disadvantage, or you take the tier 1 + 2 and have a 100% disadvantage?

Edited by Orzorn, 06 March 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Incorrect assumption.

A good player that knows heat management AND has way to dump heat at will has an advantage against just heat management.

...from a someone who usually runs 1.2-1.3 on the heat scale.

I never said they wouldnt have an advantage /facepalm. Jesus l2read people. I said they wouldnt NEED IT. Sheesh

[Budor]

MaddMaxx, on 06 March 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Oh, an alternative of "equal proportion" right? Riiiight.... got it.

Well if same cooling or 2x less is worth the same as another module of your desire than it may be equal to you...

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Is the MC version better? Yes. Is it a P2W worthy Advantage? hardly.

Maybe I am looking at things from a different angle compared to many here.

For me, the MC version is like the proverbial Get Out of Jail Free card, very desirable, and very useful, in one of those "Oh ****!" moments.

On the other hand, I see the c-bill version as something designed for more strategic use. If I am really good at heat management, and timing, I can probably squeeze more out of it.

But, I will not be certain until I have actually used it. So I will hold off final judgment on the MC version being P2W (i.e. decisive advantage). But, frankly, I really doubt it.

[Yokaiko]

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Ilya should be P2W by numbers too.. shall I fabricate a situation where the Ilya beats everything?

Incorrect.

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Ilya versus any mech at 600 meters: weapons don't Jam, Ilya wins. (almost 15 DPS..sustainable...at range)
That's Pay 2 Win.. in that situation

A x2 UAC x2 AC5-4x has highter DPS also assuming the weapons don't jam. Likewise the x4 AC2 does higher DPS..period, assuming the target is dumb enouught to stand there

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

But the Ilya is not P2W...

See above

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Is the Ilya better than the Cataphract 4X? Yes

Not always.


However, being Pay 2 Win is speculation.

Livewyr, on 06 March 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Is the MC pod better than the Cbill Pod? Yes
However: Being Pay 2 Win is speculation as well..

You just said it, its better and its MC only. That is pay to win.

[DogmeatX]

It's the principle. Who knows where this might slip slide down into...?

Otherwise why wouldn't it work just like mech purchases right now? i.e. exact same spec and requirements (module slot) but you can buy it with either mc or cbills.

Instead there are differences in the actual requirements beyond just the grind required for a cbill purchase.

Edited by DogmeatX, 06 March 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

EgoSlayer, on 06 March 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Which is exactly what I said in my message, twice. The percentage doesn't change, the actual amount of heat removed does change based on the number of heat sinks.

Which is exactly how they are supposed to work, right? The more HS's the higher your threshold. The higher your threshold, the more Heat you can accommodate, but the Cooling times are also increased.

Even the TT Pods work based on each HS individually. So any Flush mechanic has to do the same.

If I can get to 100, then flush, I reduce to (using 1 MC based unit) to 65.

If I can reach 125, then flush I reduce to (using 1 MC based unit) 81.25.

Same 35%.