174 replies to this topic

[Suki]

Thegreatdive, on 06 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

The only major change that is really needed atm is, as others have said, get rid of integrated C3. I hate when the first thing I hear in a PUg is "LRM boat here, spot for me." Do your own damn spotting. LRM boats are typically Stalkers or Atlases, assaults designed to take punishment, who then complain that I can't keep a lock because I'm too busy not getting chopped to bits by the enemy assault group while our assaults sit behind a ridge tabbing targets, firing, and wasting ammo.

As a mostly Jenner pilot, I don't find LRMs particularly overpowered damagewise, or difficult to avoid, but they should have some skillcurve, support group, or thought behind them. Adding a c3 module would attentuate a true spotting role for the Tag/NARC users out there, and force LRM boats not using it out into the open. God forbid you actually have to see what you're shooting at.

You an such people by not giving targets created those Atlas/Stalker LRM-monsters. And now qq on forum to nerf them.
My experience from pug playing:
My first LRM mech was Catapult - relly good mech, but not enough cooling and ammo to do something course - people don't give targets, people don't defend vs lights, too many ECM which are not controlled by friendly ECM.
So I got my next LRM mech - Awesome, more cooling, more ammo, more armor, it felt reaaly better to hold longer and not to rely entirely on teammembers.
Tried D-DC - not my type, but best long range LRM boat with it's ECM module.
Last one - Stalker, - tons of armor, heat stable, tons of ammo, capable to do damage via LRM and at least try to defend itself and wait longer for help.
So I'm Stalker, I'm doing my own damn spotting, I'm doing this LRM HELL right in the face of any stupid enough to walk to me and IT's ALL YOUR FAULT - what goes around comes around - try to face it now like a man on the battlefield, not like a child qqing on forum.

[Suki]

Omni 13, on 06 March 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

LRMs are stupidly easy to deal with, 1) you can take ECM/stay with neerby ECM carrier and be completely immune to them 2)you can take an AMS with any mech (except the X-5 for some reason) a reduce the amount of damage you take from LRMs 3) you can not stand in the open, the only time I really manage to kill anyone with my Catapult-C1 (4 med lasers 2lrm 20s) is when they're standing out in the open/I start firing into a brawl.

Guess you don't understand it, it was all written before, but it's much easier to qq on forum than taking cover, using ECM support, taking AMS.

[Moonsavage]

So, OP wants LRM boats to stand in the open and get Alpha'd before even one missile lands.

They seem good at the moment, but I would like to see a little more spread on the volley - when an LRM20 lands atm your mech is fubar.

[Suki]

Jonathan E, on 06 March 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

I disagree. The game modes used now (assault/conquest) there is no respawn and therefore you cannot learn from your mistake and seek out the sniper in his favorite perch. PGI had mentioned a 'Drop Ship' mode where you would respawn... but they have not put it in the game, like many many features they had discussed.

Also I have found that - unless your mech speed is so high you can disappear after flanking an enemy - flanking a group of battlemechs while solo is basically suicide. Let's be honest, leaving the main group for any reason is kind of a questionable move. Thanks to the increase in armor, even with a good alpha, it can be difficult to one-shot a mech in the back. Usually needs a splat cat unless you are up against a light, and they are moving so much that they are not the LRM boats that you're trying to flank.

No what usually happens is you take a long time being very clever and taking a lot of risks to carefully flank the enemy, deliver a volley into the back of some anti-fun LRM build, and then have a herd of stalkers turn around simultaneously (remember they are on TS that's why they are successful LRM boats) and thank the MWO gods that some ***** has delivered themselves solo into their midst. Then your pilot doesn't remember anything after that because your mech has been reduced to a fine red mist.

To get back to the point I made earlier is that LRM boating is not fun for the people being shot but it is not particularly fun for the people DOING THE SHOOTING either. I have tried LRM builds and well they're just really boring for me. I achieve a lock and fire a bunch of missiles and they hit or they miss. When they hit, all I see is health going down - say from 84% to 76%. Or say they run out of health and they explode, but I don't see it. What am I going to do? Give a sigh of relief I narrowly overcame my enemy as my heart races? Type for all to see I CAME I SAW I CONQUERED?

No, firing LRMS is boring, being hit by LRMS is boring (and annoying), and those are things that should not be in games. MHO.

If using LRM bores you, that doesn't mean it's boring to others.
Battletech is not some flowers and kittens MMO, you make mistake - you're dead and hopefuly alone and didn't get your teammembers dead also.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zyllos, on 06 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

I also agree that they need to get rid of this "every mech has C3" equipped.

You do know there were rules for "spotters". We aren't using C3 yet. C3 allowed the launching Mech to use the spotters range Mods. We don't have range mods per-se. So C3 may not be a useful piece of equipment (don't know really).

So do stop whining because Missiles are being used as they are supposed to. Artemis is helping them be more effective, and the game has multiple ways to be played. Which I think is awesome. Don't screw up success.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 March 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[Belorion]

The "problem" you are describing is the way they designed LRMs from the very beginning.

a/k/a its not a problem, just your personal dislike of the way they operate. They are fine the way they are, and are designed that way to foster communication between scouts, and support.

Everyone else likes them that way.

[Mack1]

LRM boats have never been a problem to a good player, they will always be a problem to a player who has not yet realised how to defend against them. The big problem was that the ECM was a total 100% block to LRM's when it first came out and all the noobs would just press the big ECM button and then forget about LRM's for the rest of the game. I was a very vocal protestor to this as it ruined the tactics of MWO and replaced them with a button.

Fast forward to today and the slow nerfing of ECM is starting to show and the same old people are starting to complain about LRM's. What you people need to do is L2P and I don't mean that as an insult, I need to L2P against certain weapons, we all need to L2P in some aspect of our game. LRM's to me are so easy to avoid, probably because I spent a month as an LRM boat so I know all about how to counter them.

So my advice is play a Missile Boat for a bit then you will see that you don't need an ECM to counter them, just common sense, a few hills or buildings and good use of the on/off switch. People that walk towards an LRM boat die in under 10 seconds then cry nerf...it's all a L2P issue.

Finally I will ask you this, do you want an exciting game with different classes such as LRM artillery, snipers, Tankers, support classes and even some OP classes? I do because this adds excitment and variety to the game. If you continue to cry nerf just because someone has a bigger gun than you the game will just end up with everyone the same, all dmg the same and we all meet in the middle of the map and pew pew till one team dies.

[Suki]

Hedonism Robot, on 06 March 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

My question is why does AMS suck so bad? If you are an atlas K and have 2 AMS systems ripping into the air I would expect to be able to move between 2 pieces of cover without getting melted by the missile boat stalker sitting across the river. The problem is the only real counter to LRMs in the game at the moment is the ECM. The ECM is only available on limited chassis and is out of balance itself.

PGI if you read this please consider the following:

• Buff AMS to actually protect against missiles, I don't care if it tears through ammo faster a real AMS is more effective on clumps of incoming missiles
  
• Buff BAP to always count as an ECM in counter mode.
  
• Make ECM more available for lights.

My 2 AMS work properly shredding half the volley of 2LRM20 Cat. Maybe you forgot equipping some ammo?

[DeadlyNerd]

LRMs don't need a revamp, It's the way number of missiles per mech is restricted that needs a revamp.

One can't be allowed to jam in 20 LRMs into a 6 SRM missile pods.

[Rumrunner2]

LRMs are long-range Streaks ? Thats a laugh.
LRMs are very slow and can easily killed by AMS.

Only problem with AMS is, not enough ppl use it.
A single AMS is not a big help, thats true, but 3-4 AMS close together kill most incoming missiles.

[Belorion]

LRMs are fine the way they are now.

Currenlty I am playing all brawlers or direct long range support because lrms were under powered for such a long time. I am finally once again leary of exposing myself due to fear of lrm fire, but also lrms are not dominating the battle feild. This is the way it should be.

LRMs are in just the right spot right now.

[Marduk Moreau]

DeadlyNerd, on 07 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

LRMs don't need a revamp, It's the way number of missiles per mech is restricted that needs a revamp.

One can't be allowed to jam in 20 LRMs into a 6 SRM missile pods.

You are mistaken. It is a missile hard point. From a SSRM2 to a LRM20 fits in the space restricted by crit slots. Your intentions are good but misguided.

[Suki]

Grizley, on 06 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Engine DHS are 2.0 inside the engine 1.4 outside.

It's technically possible to hit outside of max range with ER PPCs and Gauss, but the damage is not good, it's certainly not worth the ammo for the Gauss and the ER PPC heat is situational. Not to mention, even with 2000 m/s speed on an ER PPC hitting at 1620m is not easy, that's 810 MS between fire and arrival, even a relatively slow mech covers a good bit of ground in that time. Plus even with max zoom they are a tiny target. The Gauss is looking at over a second and a half of flight time.

Yes, ammo weapons have the liability of explosion, Gauss and traditional both. The tradeoff is much lower heat/damage compared to energy weapons of comparable range and grouping.

Hit rates on moving targets in the open are pretty good, not 100% if you're targeting a Jenner going 140kph, but you're doing more damage vs that Jenner with LRMs than you are PPCs or Gauss.

You aren't doing anything to jenner with LRMs if he's moving fast enough and changing angles.

[Barghest Whelp]

Zabnicki, on 06 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Remember those, "Which-Way", books?
"Incoming Missiles" Betty said aloud within the confines of the mechwarrior's cockpit.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
Stand there and hope it does not hit you? Turn to page 17

Take into account the probable direction of where the salvo would be coming from and hurry to the nearest cover or concealment you can find? Turn to page 18

Push you mech into full throttle and run headlong into the incoming barrage? Turn to page 17

Page 17. The volley of missiles covers your battlemech in a cacophony of small explosions as you are jostled about in your cockpit.The klaxton blares and Betty signals that your right CENTER torso is critical and you have lost all weapons on the right side.

Page 18. You pull your mech up close to a mid sized hill as you hear a rapid succession of small explosions just on the other side. You see two missiles shoot just over you and one detonate a mere 4 meters from your cockpit.

Fixed it for you. Since the last patch LRM's concentrate way too much on CT. Secondly, when the enemy LRM carrier has OP ECM to hide it's sensor signature, it's not so easy to figure out where it's coming from. Sure, it's easy early on in the match, as the enemy can only move so far from the spawn within a limited amount of time, but later on in the match this is no longer the case.

And if you don't know where the missiles are coming from, you can hide behind all the cover you want, not realizing that they're coming from a totally different angle. By then it's already too late. And 50 missiles will pop most mechs in the current state of affairs.

Even an AC 20 cat, which has way more limitations can never hope to pop a mech in a single volley. They even buffed the damage output from the TT values, even though the TT LRM's hardly ever hit with 100% of the missiles. I really feel that the very least they could do in order balance this out is to make absolutely sure that the damage is ALWAYS spread across different sections of the mech. In fact, spread across sections of the entire mech. That's legs, head, CT RT LT CBT RBT LBT.

Another thing I've noticed since the last patch is that places that used to offer good cover no longer do. I don't know if this is the flight path or what, but this just adds to the OP of a weapon that doesn't require LOS or aiming. You have to guess and hope that the cover is sufficient. Being out of sight is in no way a safe bet, and never was. You need to ensure that the angle is steep enough so that the flight path of the missiles are broken. Add to this that there are LRM capable mechs that also have JJ capability. This invalidates a large portion of the cover arguement, as the LRM carrier can suddenly shoot from a higher position, and thus get a better angle. Add to this the fact that in certain situations the LRM carrier can position himself so that you simply don't have any cover close by, and will take 2-3 volleys before having any hope of reaching adequate cover just adds to this. Yes I know, clever him, but what's the counter again? Cover? Use scouts? How many scouts should I bring? Oh, I know, let's just have a whole team of raven 3L's. That way I'm guaranteed to have enough scouts, and I'm sure it'll be great fun for both teams.

Imo the best way to balance them would be to still allow locks, but no LOS, no damage. Simple as that. I know that this would mean that there would be no indirect fire weapons, but I really don't feel we need an always hits indirect fire weapon. This should be left to long toms, artillery strikes and such. At least you would have to aim with those. Not just point and click.

Another option would be to make it so that if you shut down the missiles loose lock and will not hit. Even if there was a lock before the target shut down. This would mean that there was a counter inherent in all maps and mech configurations, just like there is with all other weapons. You know, like stay out of sight, move to make you harder to hit. That sort of thing. Point being, that you don't need a specific mech or module that costs tons/crits in order to counter one single weapon system. And there would be a distinct disadvantage to it, just like moving around makes it harder for the moving mech to aim, and staying out of sight means you can't damage the opposing mech.

[Suki]

As for about, LRM indirect fire was already nerfed 2 patches ago. That's why most experienced LRM boats started to fight almost brawl style.
Before - 1 small spotter could get behind the enemy team and give targets to all carrying LRMs. Half the team could be dead before they see the spotter.
Now - friendly spotter holds the target and our Lovely Betty immidiatly warns the target about it and he starts jumping like a flea and spotter is immidiatly compromised.

[Yokaiko]

Moonsavage, on 07 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

So, OP wants LRM boats to stand in the open and get Alpha'd before even one missile lands.

They seem good at the moment, but I would like to see a little more spread on the volley - when an LRM20 lands atm your mech is fubar.

At 10 tons the LRM 20 is supposed to be feared, wait till clan LRMs hit sans minimum range. No more charging the LRM boat, he'll just kill you without the flight time.

[Sheraf]

Suki, on 07 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

As for about, LRM indirect fire was already nerfed 2 patches ago. That's why most experienced LRM boats started to fight almost brawl style.
Before - 1 small spotter could get behind the enemy team and give targets to all carrying LRMs. Half the team could be dead before they see the spotter.
Now - friendly spotter holds the target and our Lovely Betty immidiatly warns the target about it and he starts jumping like a flea and spotter is immidiatly compromised.

You are right. The most effective range for my LRM is around 300 to 400. I use LRM as initial attack then come in with my other weapons. If the enemies is confuse enough to just stand there, of course I will keep launching LRM at them

Edited by Sheraf, 07 March 2013 - 05:50 AM.

[Zabnicki]

Yokaiko, on 07 March 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

At 10 tons the LRM 20 is supposed to be feared, wait till clan LRMs hit sans minimum range. No more charging the LRM boat, he'll just kill you without the flight time.

Oh man if you thought threads on ECM raised Cain and LRMs are OP. The Clans will make it all look like none of that ever happened. Medium mechs with 12 ER Medium Lasers that jump. Lights that can run backwards around our tweaked out lights. All without the TT rules of one mech, one target enforced on them. But I digress. LRMs are not a win button. If no one is spotting them and the target runs out of LOS, you have one second, (or 3.5 if you have the ultra - modual ) to rectify it otherwise, it follows the path to last known point EVEN with Artemis.

[Fut]

Barghest Whelp, on 07 March 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Fixed it for you. Since the last patch LRM's concentrate way too much on CT. Secondly, when the enemy LRM carrier has OP ECM to hide it's sensor signature, it's not so easy to figure out where it's coming from. Sure, it's easy early on in the match, as the enemy can only move so far from the spawn within a limited amount of time, but later on in the match this is no longer the case.

Alright.
So what would you rather be up against:
1) An ER-PPC sniper being hidden by ECM. You find out that he's firing on you when you feel the PPCs impact on your 'Mech.
2) An LRM boat being hidden by ECM. You find out that he's firing on you when you hear Betty screaming at you to evade.

Damn, that's a tough call, eh?

Barghest Whelp, on 07 March 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

And if you don't know where the missiles are coming from, you can hide behind all the cover you want, not realizing that they're coming from a totally different angle. By then it's already too late. And 50 missiles will pop most mechs in the current state of affairs.

It's called situational awareness. At any given time during a match you should have a rough idea of where your enemy is. Chances are they're somewhere between you and their base. Always keep your eyes open to your flanks though.

If you're playing with blinders on, you deserve to eat full volleys of LRM fire.
Sorry, but it's true.

Barghest Whelp, on 07 March 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

Imo the best way to balance them would be to still allow locks, but no LOS, no damage. Simple as that. I know that this would mean that there would be no indirect fire weapons, but I really don't feel we need an always hits indirect fire weapon. This should be left to long toms, artillery strikes and such. At least you would have to aim with those. Not just point and click.

No LOS, no damage? Why not just remove LRMs completely at this point?
The reason why I like LRMs is that I can fire them as direct or indirect weapons, depending on the situation I find myself in. If they were LOS only, it'd make way more sense to just take Lasers or Ballistics - as you wouldn't have to worry about slow travel time to the target, AMS, and ECM.

Also, don't you just point and click when you're shooting every single weapon in this game?

Edited by Fut, 07 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Jonathan E]

Should it be surprising that the only people defending LRMs are the ones that boat them? You are beginning to sound like the ECM IS NOT OP LERN TO SHOOT F*G LOLZ Raven-3L pilots that everyone despises.

You guys think that because you say one correct thing, it validates your entire argument. Let me stipulate, YES IT IS HARDER to hit mechs with LRMs than with any other weapon, because cover is more effective given the long travel time, and yes people have a warning, and many carry AMS.

If I give you that will you please allow what every other person is saying here THEY DO TOO MUCH DAMAGE. Just way too much, and on purpose too. The designers had to bump the damage up because the LRM was not effective enough. A few matches ago, I saw an untouched assault disintegrate with one salvo. Last match I was hit with one salvo (LRM20 x 2 from Catapult), and left arm, left torso, and center torso are completely without armor. And yes I was moving to cover, but even the suped up engine on my Awesome-ly slow mech could not steer me into safety fast enough. I don't think any mech is supposed to alpha an undamaged assault mech. Why do you think people also complain about 6x6 splatcats and AC20-cats and 6PPC stalkers? Same reason. You should be punished for making a mistake, but that should not be the end of it. If you continue to make mistakes, sure you should die.

When these LRM battles - which don't happen every match - get ugly, it seems like it just remote death. Who is going to make a jet fighter sim where every combat is concluded with a missile that strikes the opponent from beyond visual range? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Since the last patch it is more noticeable because the change in their pattern is apparently more effective, and I think that lower forms of terrain no longer function as cover. Like, the terrain can't just block LOS or be as tall as your mech. It has to be much higher than your mech (e.g. buildings in River City) or the LRMs will simply arc over the cover.

A decent fix would be to make it easier to hit with LRMS and have them do less damage. Right now they are an all or nothing weapon. They just don't seem to make the transition from tabletop that well.