174 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

Jonathan E, on 07 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

THEY DO TOO MUCH DAMAGE.

I disagree. I don't think that they do enough damage.

Think of them as - for this example, we'll use modern weaponry - a Javelin missile launcher. The Javelin typically fires very fast rockets that can decimate targets hiding behind cover due to its particular flight pattern (which is to say it flys almost straight up, and then smashes down on the target's head). Okay, fine, now we'll make it ps explosion twice as big, but the flight time needs to be increased by a factor of 5, it can't drop right onto the target, and, oh yeah, when fired it emits a particular sound that is unmistakable for anything else that let's everyone within a mile know a Javelin has been fired. Oh, and to top it off, you can't shoot at anyone wearing a $3 buzzer, because.

[IrrelevantFish]

I'll agree that removing indirect fire is a terrible idea. That's kind of the whole point of LRM's in the first place.

However, I'd still like to see their damage reduced significantly (~1.4dmg/missile seems a reasonable figure to me). People talk about "playing smart," but it doesn't work like that. If you're out-boated, this is what happens:

• Any lights sent to harass boats are almost guaranteed to die, as they'll be completely unsupported and facing off against most of the enemy team, leaving you not only outnumbered but extremely vulnerable to being capped and poorly equipped to deal with enemy lights playing spotter.
  
• So long as boats are operating, you can't leave cover, severely curtailing your maneuverability and leaving you vulnerable to being focused down by enemy non-boats when you have to pass through choke points, such as cave mouths.
  
• Once you are close, even if you've managed to get this far with pristine armor, you still have to get within that minimum range, and since a single salvo from two or three boats can take out a fresh assault, your team will still take losses making it those last few meters.
  
• If the enemy is smart, the boats will be set up such that they can provide fire support for each other. While you're taking out one boat, the others will be raining on you. That means even more losses.
  
• While you're focusing down the boats, the enemy team's non-boats can shoot you in the back.

The only times I've seen missile-boating successfully defeated, it's been because the boats were stupid or at least 50% of the opposite team consisted of one or both of the most irritating mechs in the game: the RVN-3L or the 6xPPC Stalker.

[IrrelevantFish]

Volthorne, on 07 March 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Think of them as - for this example, we'll use modern weaponry - a Javelin missile launcher.

Rule of Cool, dude. Real life is boring.

After all, in real life, mechs would sink up to their knees in dirt and be annihilated by missiles with shaped-charge warheads fired from twenty miles away ... assuming, that is, that all the spacecraft in orbit ran out of stuff to drop on them.

Seriously, dude, regardless of their realism, LRMs aren't fun right now, and that's what matters.

[Khobai]

LRMs currently arn't fun for two reasons:
1) ECM+LRM interaction makes using LRMs not fun.
2) LRM+Artemis makes getting hit by LRMs not fun (can one or two shot Atlases with the right stalker build).

[Revorn]

To Face a Stalker unprepared is never funny at all.


For the LRM Thing. Some should realy think about using AMS. Belive it or not, its quite usefully. 3 Of em as Umbreall are taking out the most impacts.

If you then add, getting from Cover to Cover, you should have not much Problems with LRMS.

[IrrelevantFish]

Revorn, on 07 March 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

For the LRM Thing. Some should realy think about using AMS. Belive it or not, its quite usefully. 3 Of em as Umbreall are taking out the most impacts.

Sorry, but it takes a lot more than three AMSs to deal with 100+ LRMs falling out of the sky all at once, and I've been seeing that kind of missile density a lot recently.

I once came up against a team with two 4xLRM20 Stalkers and two flavors of D-DC boats. We were on Frozen City, and they had a 3L spotting. We lost two assaults within the first few seconds of the engagement, and everyone but the lights were pinned behind the dropship or buildings. Since we were scattered and unable to regroup without breaking cover, their four non-boats killed the rest of us one by one. There was literally nothing we could do.

[Cest7]

Buff AMS please

People are bringing more and more launchers but I can only bring 1 AMS

Edited by Cest7, 08 March 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Sheraf]

AMS buff to me would the ability to deactivate and activate it during the match. I don't want to see it shooting at LRM that will not hit me.

[Windsaw]

Buff AMS?

Question: How useful is an LRM 5 if the enemy has one AMS right now? (three tons to operate)
How useful will be an LRM 10?
Even buffed, how useful do you think it will be against 100 LRMs? How useful do you think LRM 5 and 10 will be?

Let's face it: By buffing AMS you will only achieve one thing: Relative to balanced builds, boats are getting even stronger because balanced builds are hurt even more.

I am against any change that hurts balanced builds more than boats.

Edited by Windsaw, 08 March 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Revorn]

IrrelevantFish, on 08 March 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

Sorry, but it takes a lot more than three AMSs to deal with 100+ LRMs falling out of the sky all at once, and I've been seeing that kind of missile density a lot recently.

I once came up against a team with two 4xLRM20 Stalkers and two flavors of D-DC boats. We were on Frozen City, and they had a 3L spotting. We lost two assaults within the first few seconds of the engagement, and everyone but the lights were pinned behind the dropship or buildings. Since we were scattered and unable to regroup without breaking cover, their four non-boats killed the rest of us one by one. There was literally nothing we could do.

I guess you missed some Snipers in your Group.

2LRM 20 Stalkers and 2 D-DC Boats looking like some "nice" Premades, who are out for some Puggstoping. The regulary Pug Team have rarly a change against such Groups. But a good 4 Man Premade should be able to rock this LRM Boats with their Sniper easyly. Imho

But to meet some superrior LRMBoating Premades, dont means that AMS dosent help much against LRMs.

[Fooooo]

Windsaw, on 08 March 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Buff AMS?

Question: How useful is an LRM 5 if the enemy has one AMS right now? (three tons to operate)
How useful will be an LRM 10?
Even buffed, how useful do you think it will be against 100 LRMs? How useful do you think LRM 5 and 10 will be?

Let's face it: By buffing AMS you will only achieve one thing: Relative to balanced builds, boats are getting even stronger because balanced builds are hurt even more.

I am against any change that hurts balanced builds more than boats.

It is a problem.

However, you could possibly avoid it by having the AMS systems check what launchers are being fired against it.

If it could do this, then you could have it set to ams will 100% take down.... (change the numbers to whatever, I cant be arsed to do the exact math)

1 missile from an LRM5.
2 missiles from an LRM10
3 missles from an LRM15
4 missiles from an LRM20

If multiple launchers are firing at the ams then its easy for it to work out. Each LRM5 loses 1 missile, each LRM10 loses 2, etc etc.......


That way AMS would pretty much be a straight % reduction in dmg from missiles, and leaves LRM5's still somewhat viable as long as its only against 1 AMS system etc. (you would need 5 AMS to make all LRM5s firing at you do 0 dmg....so long as you still have ammo.....or you make it so AMS doesn't stack increase the amount of missiles killed, and only the targetted mechs AMS will fire at missiles coming at them.)

The problem I guess would be more load on the server checking all this stuff, and the coding to get it working....and its still not really a buff at all.......

Edited by Fooooo, 08 March 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Sheraf]

I would rather have AMS targets individual missile, not just fixed on a % of missile they can take down.

[Yankee77]

Mack1, on 07 March 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

LRM boats have never been a problem to a good player, they will always be a problem to a player who has not yet realised how to defend against them. The big problem was that the ECM was a total 100% block to LRM's when it first came out and all the noobs would just press the big ECM button and then forget about LRM's for the rest of the game. I was a very vocal protestor to this as it ruined the tactics of MWO and replaced them with a button.

Fast forward to today and the slow nerfing of ECM is starting to show and the same old people are starting to complain about LRM's. What you people need to do is L2P and I don't mean that as an insult, I need to L2P against certain weapons, we all need to L2P in some aspect of our game. LRM's to me are so easy to avoid, probably because I spent a month as an LRM boat so I know all about how to counter them.

So my advice is play a Missile Boat for a bit then you will see that you don't need an ECM to counter them, just common sense, a few hills or buildings and good use of the on/off switch. People that walk towards an LRM boat die in under 10 seconds then cry nerf...it's all a L2P issue.

Finally I will ask you this, do you want an exciting game with different classes such as LRM artillery, snipers, Tankers, support classes and even some OP classes? I do because this adds excitment and variety to the game. If you continue to cry nerf just because someone has a bigger gun than you the game will just end up with everyone the same, all dmg the same and we all meet in the middle of the map and pew pew till one team dies.

This is an excellent post all around.

I love LRMs, both as an LRM users (and no, I don't boat them, my main mech has 2 PPCs and 25 LRM tubes and only 3 tons of ammo, best LRM build I've seen so far IMO), and from a tactical standpoint.

LRMs help define the battlefield, just like sniper weapons do. They turn open spaces into kill zones and covered positions as safe zone, and make moving from point A to point B on a map a more meaningful (and sometimes difficult) tactical question. In short, they add depth.

And as suggested above, try and use an LRM boat for a bit to learn how to defend from LRMs, and also how LRMs aren't necessarily an "easy button". Better yet, try to use them in 8-mans, where everyone actually DOES know how to use cover. There's a reason LRMs are almost never used in 8-mans (though they're finally making a more reasonable comeback, I think).

Once you know how to defend against LRMs, they're not really a major problem. Yes you can get torn apart if you screw up, but the same could be said of any weapon system. The main difference is you have to be more careful (since LOS is not required)... but conversely you also get this big warning and plenty of time to find cover (and if you find yourself far enough from cover that you can't get there in time, then you really screwed up).

Edited by Itkovian, 08 March 2013 - 06:38 AM.

[Sheraf]

I favor balance build on all my mechs. I often fill out most if not all the weapon slots on my mech. My stalker 3F beside the 2x large lasers, and 4x medium lasers, I also carry 2 LRM 10 Artemis. That give me a good coverage of long, medium and close range. I also have no trouble fighting with pure LRM mech, and I can also shoot back if the distance is out of my large laser range.

[MaddMaxx]

DuoAngel, on 06 March 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Actually, I don't get why you have to have lock on LRMed mech, if you are assistant. OK, you've spotted them, they are in your sight of view, so any of your teammate should see red triangles and get a lock-ons for themselves. So, why to get that red square, if you are going only to point them with TAG for better landing of your teammates' LRMs?

Looking out the cockpit glass does not count. You have to electronically spot them, or press "R" so then your mech can send that "coordinate location data" back to your Allies.

Just seeing them and waving "over here" from inside your cockpit or trying to describe their exact location in a Grid via text or Comms would be quite difficult.

Especially when all you would hear back is.

"Yes Scout! G5, perfect. Now where in G5 might that be? We have no visual cue yet!

"Yes, Scout! We know "you can see them visually", how about you lock em up for us!"

[MaddMaxx]

Sheraf, on 08 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

AMS buff to me would the ability to deactivate and activate it during the match. I don't want to see it shooting at LRM that will not hit me.

And I would disagree with this sentiment in principle simply due to the fact that every Missile that does not strike a Team mate, may allow that Teammate to survive and then in return save my hiney or actually Win the Match. Pretty hard to argue that if you "Help the Team", you also, by simple osmosis, help yourself...

That is why I mount AMS on almost ever chassis and add 2t of ammo on some.

[CrushLibs]

Problem isn't LRMs its players not able to get behind cover and that's pilot error on most maps.

New LRM flight path is better but at 100 meters per second LRMs suck at distance.

Fix the NARC make it usefull , increase TAG to 1000 meters , increase LRM speed to 150 meters per sec , and increase min range to 270 meters.

Want protection under 270m get SRMs or MED lasers.

Want to keep from getting killed by LRMs use cover and get inside the 270m range.

[MaddMaxx]

CrushLibs, on 08 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Problem isn't LRMs its players not able to get behind cover and that's pilot error on most maps.

New LRM flight path is better but at 100 meters per second LRMs suck at distance.

Fix the NARC make it usefull , increase TAG to 1000 meters , increase LRM speed to 150 meters per sec , and increase min range to 270 meters.

Want protection under 270m get SRMs or MED lasers.

Want to keep from getting killed by LRMs use cover and get inside the 270m range.

The simplicity of that statement is what makes it erroneous. "Just get behind cover" easy peezy. How in hell are you going to be able to actually fight that other enemy Mech who decided he wants your arse dead?

"Excuse me good sir. Would you mind if we stepped over here, under cover of your friends LRM's, while we dual? Thanks a bunch. Really preciate it."

The reality is there is not always cover and with the current Artemis cluster LRM's will shred you Mech quickly and efficiently when "otherwise" engaged. You know, with the non-LRM based enemy Mechs.

I have no idea what has caused their renewed potency, but LRM's are back with a vengeance and there has only ever been one reason they were used. They will Kill stuff quick. When they didn't do that you never saw them. Only the Forums whines about how UP they were at that time.

The correlation is crystal clear.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 March 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[MischiefSC]

The problem is that ECM/missile balance trumps all other tactics in the game. It's not that I don't know how to deal with them - I rarely die to missiles. The problem is that the balance between ECM and LRMs drives boating, the gimping to ECM to only working on certain mechs (which it appears will be getting gimped down in turn to punish pugs for trying to bring ECM mechs I guess?) because it's otherwise OPed, this random feast/famine approach to LRMs based on which map you are on....

I have a drastically better idea. Less damage, faster speed, less maneuverability, no missile warning. ECM slows but doesn't block locks. TAG and NARC become information warfare tools (making TAGed or NARCed mechs show up different in all allied huds for a period of time and increasing missile hit percentage and location) and suddenly....

LRMs are a weapon balanced like the other weapons. Useful at extreme range and with some indirect fire ability but not too much out of balance with other long ranged weapons. Boating it is no more viable than boating PPCs or ACs, trading pinpoint accuracy for some indirect fire with an allied spotter.

TAG should last 5 seconds. NARC should last 30 seconds. ECM shouldn't work as team stealth shield but block TAG, NARC, BAP which should be buffed to be useful. It should slow missile locks and break up the tight cluster of Artemis and make SSRMs dumbfire. Maybe have some spendy modules and pilot unlocks for ECM that hide paperdolls.... how about even have it scatter accuracy of artillery/airstrike targeting within its radius?

Currently though it's broken. Not that you can't work around it. I can work around clan ERPPCs when they come out too (15 damage each, that'll be a 90 point Stalker alpha, betcha can't wait) but it doesn't mean that it's fun and balanced.

ECM/missile balance is broken.

Please fix it. Please.

[CrushLibs]

I guess you have never used LRMs without a dedicated spotter ?? Locks are impossible to hold and you miss your target.

LRMs are only bunched tighter now but still are LOS guided and useless if cover/ECM is avail.

To answer your question I generally will put a pair of UAC-5s or GUASS up the mech arse and kill it.