186 replies to this topic

[Dragonkindred]

Novawrecker, on 08 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

In part, I get what you are saying. In other parts, this totally messes up the concept behind Omni-mechs (be them Clan or IS). Or are you meaning not being able to adjust the "fixed" aspects of Omni?

Nope. I mean you can only use the standard configs. Take the Timber Wolf for example http://www.sarna.net...r_Wolf_(Mad_Cat) . It has a set number of variants. Before each match, you choose which variant you want to take. You don't get to change the weapons to your own liking. This stops boating, unless there is a clan mech that is already a boat (Nova I'm looking at you).

It doesn't mess up the concept of an Omni, it just stops players from rorting the clan tech/omni system.

[Taemien]

The only balance that is needed is not allowing Clan mechs to share targeting info and not allowing their half weight LRMs to indirect fire (needing LOS to hit something).

No need to have uneven teams (the only ones that want this are those that want to gimp Clan so bad they'll hardly ever win against IS, especially in premade vs premade).

No need to rebalance the weapons beyond what we currently do with weapons now.

And no need for mixtech that would cause abomination builds that would be so out of whack its not even funny (which would be even worse as the timeline is advanced).

As for the naysayers that said no one would play IS without mixtech, that is so false its not even funny. MWLL and MW4 had plenty of IS based units and in MWLL players preferred IS even with mechs that didn't have advanced IS tech(RACs, Heavy Gauss, ect.). For example the Raven Prime (MWO RVN-3L) was still a monster in Puretech matches.

[Mazzyplz]

Taemien, on 08 March 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

The only balance that is needed is not allowing Clan mechs to share targeting info and not allowing their half weight LRMs to indirect fire (needing LOS to hit something).

No need to have uneven teams (the only ones that want this are those that want to gimp Clan so bad they'll hardly ever win against IS, especially in premade vs premade).

No need to rebalance the weapons beyond what we currently do with weapons now.

And no need for mixtech that would cause abomination builds that would be so out of whack its not even funny (which would be even worse as the timeline is advanced).

As for the naysayers that said no one would play IS without mixtech, that is so false its not even funny. MWLL and MW4 had plenty of IS based units and in MWLL players preferred IS even with mechs that didn't have advanced IS tech(RACs, Heavy Gauss, ect.). For example the Raven Prime (MWO RVN-3L) was still a monster in Puretech matches.

how did they balance it in living legends? never got to play it

[FunkyFritter]

Mismatched teams will be a nightmare to balance no matter how it's set up. I much prefer a solution that keeps the playing field symmetrical, be that allowing people to mix and match tech or something else entirely.

[Spectre250]

Anyone ever consider keeping some kind of weapon disparity, but adding in/giving the IS some major edge in information systems (ECM, IFF/real-world style RADAR jammers, drone recon, etc.)? Well, maybe not ECM. When you think about it, guns are not always the way to go when considering combat capability. I for one would be happy with that approach at least considered.

[Mazzyplz]

inner sphere mechs should be required to spend gxp to unlock clan weapons 1 by 1.

clans would be balanced the same way the awesome was buffed- engine, twist rate.. if they do want to mess with their engines then convert the omni mech to a non omni.

if you need more balance do it with limitations to elite and maybe even take away some consumables or even all modules completely from clans.

maybe reduce the ammount of free slots it has with "dynamic armor" since they should all come with standard ferro fibrous right? so less room to work with. and you can't remove it
how about that.

oh yeah and the targeting thing could work too, a combination of all these could be possible, balance them by taking away some options that IS mechs have like these, modules, elite unlocks, everything could be a bit worse and balance out in an imperceptible way. this would be good,
putting a lot of little disadvantages would make them feel and play like the clan mechs but with unique tradeoffs.


i think the worst possible option for balance is 8v12/10v12.
followed in a close 2nd with only stock builds for clan mechs - i loathe these ideas.

i think it should be even, 8v8, 12v12 - and the balancing needs to be done on a mech per mech basis, balacing them against the existing IS mechs, better in some ways worse in many other little ways

maybe instead of taking away their modules just give them their own clan crappier modules, and a smaller collection of modules of which to choose from

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 March 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[ColonelMetus]

clan vs innersphere will be balanced because all the hardcore players will stay innersphere and obliterate all the bandwagon kiddies piloting the "best" mechs.

[Taemien]

Mazzyplz, on 08 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

how did they balance it in living legends? never got to play it

The weapons were pretty balanced in the default values as it was. Inner Sphere has access to Small, Medium, and Large Lasers where Clan does not. They only have Er versions. In fact a Clan Medium Laser (as they call it) is an ER Medium Laser. Therefore most Clan weapons deal more heat than IS for increased damage and range.

Autocannons and Gauss rifles are roughly equal in range and damage.

Missiles are where Clan Weapons were a bit OP. In MWLL they balanced this by replacing many IS LRMs with ELRMs which have longer ranges (1500m) than Clan LRMs (1000m). Of course this is why I said to not allow them to indirect fire in MWO. A Clan LRM 20 weighs 5 tons vs the IS 10 tons. So you can imagine how much devastation a Vulture would cause with 4 LRM20s+Artemis at only 6 tons a piece.

Most Clan mechs seem scary on paper until you actually see what they can do. For example a Stock Daishi Prime has a bazillion weapons (4 ER Large Lasers, 2 UAC5s, 4 Medium Pulse Lasers, and a LRM10). It generates 74 heat in a turn with only 22 Double heatsinks. In MWO terms it can't really dissipate that heat.

What would actually happen is the mech would have to be modified so it can reliably fire its weapons more often.

Lets not forget that Omnimechs cannot swap engines, internals, heatsink type, and armor cannot be modified. In addition criticals are often hard mounted. Pumas for example have a Flamer hard mounted in their CT. And apparently FF armor and ES structure criticals are also hardmounted, limiting critical placement even further. In addition I believe omni mechs aren't going to have full pod space available, but have hardpoints with some being omni here or there.

[Vassago Rain]

Taemien, on 08 March 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

The only balance that is needed is not allowing Clan mechs to share targeting info and not allowing their half weight LRMs to indirect fire (needing LOS to hit something).

No need to have uneven teams (the only ones that want this are those that want to gimp Clan so bad they'll hardly ever win against IS, especially in premade vs premade).

No need to rebalance the weapons beyond what we currently do with weapons now.

And no need for mixtech that would cause abomination builds that would be so out of whack its not even funny (which would be even worse as the timeline is advanced).

As for the naysayers that said no one would play IS without mixtech, that is so false its not even funny. MWLL and MW4 had plenty of IS based units and in MWLL players preferred IS even with mechs that didn't have advanced IS tech(RACs, Heavy Gauss, ect.). For example the Raven Prime (MWO RVN-3L) was still a monster in Puretech matches.

LL has its own pretend universe, where mechs and guns don't operate like in actual battletech... This game follows CBT as closely as possible, and there are no uber IS aerotech or ultra-cheap tanks you can squeeze out.

Taemien, on 08 March 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Words

One word: mechlab.

Everything you're saying's void. Have a good day.

[Malora Sidewinder]

actually i just thought of this...
instead of queing clans vs IS and letting the clans steamroll everyone, why not set up two seperate ques, one for clan mechs only the other for IS only?

it seems better than 90% of the alternatives i've seen on the forums, any reasons why it would't work?

[Vassago Rain]

Malora Sidewinder, on 08 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

actually i just thought of this...
instead of queing clans vs IS and letting the clans steamroll everyone, why not set up two seperate ques, one for clan mechs only the other for IS only?

it seems better than 90% of the alternatives i've seen on the forums, any reasons why it would't work?

Because the clans are making war on the IS, and clanners end up in IS mechs, while the IS steal/win/salvage clan mechs.

[Mazzyplz]

Malora Sidewinder, on 08 March 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

actually i just thought of this...
instead of queing clans vs IS and letting the clans steamroll everyone, why not set up two seperate ques, one for clan mechs only the other for IS only?

it seems better than 90% of the alternatives i've seen on the forums, any reasons why it would't work?

are you serious?

because the whole idea of a clan invasion is clans vs IS

[Vassago Rain]

Mazzyplz, on 08 March 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

are you serious?

because the whole idea of a clan invasion is clans vs IS

Legendary founders rarely know anything at all about mechwarrior or battletech. But I think you've realized that on your own already.

[Taemien]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

One word: mechlab.

Everything you're saying's void. Have a good day.

Explain how to place a Clan LB-20X Autocannon in either the left or right torso using the MWO build rules. And a hint for you, the components in black are part of the Omnimech's frame, meaning you cannot modify them or move them.

In addition, since you missed it. Even in a mechlab, Omnimechs, if PGI sticks to their building rules (which I see no reason why they wouldn't if they intend for them to have omni hardpoints), you will be unable to modify the Armor, Internal Structure, Locked Hardpoints (such as the flamer in the Puma's CT and the DHS on that Daishi above), Engine, and Heatsink Type.

So while Clan OmniMechs will have the option of greater weapon hardpoint variety, they will not have the flexibility that BattleMechs have in terms of engine or armor.

But if you were such an expert on BattleTech you would know that already. Seems like you just got schooled by a Legendary Founder.

[MustrumRidcully]

By what Battletech rule can IS mechs alter their armour, engine or internal structure?

All I know is from some kind of field refit/upgrade kits, which turn one variant into another - no freedom - and the free construction rules, that are jsut about creating new mechs, not modifying existing ones.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

There are no BT rules for the instant modification of mechs in BT. There are the construction rules (as you say for new mechs), field refit kits and modification. The last involves access to the appropriate techs and equipment, often a factory and lots of time and money. there is also a chance for failure of the modified systems as they are "untested". The mechlab is an artifact of the computer games with no basis in lore or directly in the rules.
It would be interesting to see if they ever introduce a "stock only" in the matchmaker, even with the present heat system. look at the videos from the matches KAOS and the Ponies played the other day where everyone used the same trial mech. It looked like great fun.

[Novawrecker]

Dragonkindred, on 08 March 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Nope. I mean you can only use the standard configs. Take the Timber Wolf for example http://www.sarna.net...r_Wolf_(Mad_Cat) . It has a set number of variants. Before each match, you choose which variant you want to take. You don't get to change the weapons to your own liking. This stops boating, unless there is a clan mech that is already a boat ...

It doesn't mess up the concept of an Omni, it just stops players from rorting the clan tech/omni system.

I see what you mean about providing Omnimechs the flexibility of deciding which version to pick from as a match starts. However, this completely messes up the concept of Omni. As things are currently (and with your example), standard mechs are more "omni" than Omni-mechs themselves are as one can completely muck around with loadouts with the only limitation being hardpoints and their allocations.

With your example, the flexibility of being modular is replaced with the option of choosing what (pre)configs they have. That is not Omni modular pod space flexibility. That's just allowing the flexibility of variant changes as a match starts and the same can be applied to standard mechs and their variants (X match? I'll drop in my Stalker. Alpine map? 3H variant chosen ....)

Dragonkindred, on 08 March 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

(Nova I'm looking at you) ...

I didn't do it (nor did my 'cat), I swear!

[MustrumRidcully]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 09 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

There are no BT rules for the instant modification of mechs in BT. There are the construction rules (as you say for new mechs), field refit kits and modification. The last involves access to the appropriate techs and equipment, often a factory and lots of time and money. there is also a chance for failure of the modified systems as they are "untested". The mechlab is an artifact of the computer games with no basis in lore or directly in the rules.
It would be interesting to see if they ever introduce a "stock only" in the matchmaker, even with the present heat system. look at the videos from the matches KAOS and the Ponies played the other day where everyone used the same trial mech. It looked like great fun.

They had fun mostly due to the ridiculousness of the situation and the terriblness of the stock mechs.

Sometimes I think PGI should have not tested the mech lab so early, but first focused on the stock mech experience. Then their heat system would probably make more sense, and the move from stock to custom would be only about "boating weapons" rather than "boating heat sinks".

[Asmosis]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

Explain how to place a Clan LB-20X Autocannon in either the left or right torso using the MWO build rules. And a hint for you, the components in black are part of the Omnimech's frame, meaning you cannot modify them or move them.

In addition, since you missed it. Even in a mechlab, Omnimechs, if PGI sticks to their building rules (which I see no reason why they wouldn't if they intend for them to have omni hardpoints), you will be unable to modify the Armor, Internal Structure, Locked Hardpoints (such as the flamer in the Puma's CT and the DHS on that Daishi above), Engine, and Heatsink Type.

So while Clan OmniMechs will have the option of greater weapon hardpoint variety, they will not have the flexibility that BattleMechs have in terms of engine or armor.

But if you were such an expert on BattleTech you would know that already. Seems like you just got schooled by a Legendary Founder.

Thats an assumption on your part, which you then take to be fact to base your opinion on.

We're not playing BT, we're playing MWO.

We know they will do something to balance it out, whether its fast forwarding the timeline to allow IS to use clantech/mixtech w/e you want to call it (they have already said they can/will FF timeline as needed) or modifiying omni mechs so they more closely resemble what most of the player base are used to (previous MW games).

[Karr285]

not to say it would be the balancing feature, but Clanners do not use such methods as Artillery and Airstrikes as they cause collateral damage that clanners despise and goes against the whole "honour" thing. so thats a +1 to playing IS i guess... maybe???