101 replies to this topic

[Weatherman]

Shield rules exist in the Solaris VII book along with rules for claws, maces, flails, and all sorts of other craziness. They are very specific to Solaris VII and should stay that way.

I love Solaris VII, but for MWO, short of having specific Solaris VII scenarios, I think stuff like that should stay fluffy and out of sight.

[OJ191]

Thorn Blackwell, on 30 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

It's a simple question of weight restrictions. Armor weighs a lot, and a shield is just armor. There is no way to add it to a supporting structure. If you're thinking the mech can just hold it, then you aren't thinking about the internal structures that have specific weight limits. Picking up a bit of this and that is one thing, but a significant amount of armor to make a difference is too much to support. It would throw off the balance of the mech, and make it heavier thus slowing it down. It's just not an option according to the design rules in the game.

There are limitation to the internal structure yes, there is no (real life) reason why you could not just remove 1 ton of weapons/ammo and give it a slab of armour equivalent to 1 ton as a "shield" on the arm which it could use to block ballistics.

canon-wise I have no idea.

Edited by OJ191, 30 May 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[cinco]

dumb idea. that's what armor is for. and while we're changing lore around, lets change the cockpit to be more sensible. it should simply be a sensor suite with the pilot embedded deep inside the armor instead of behind a piece of glass.

Edited by cinco, 30 May 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Steel Talon]

Reactive armor works like "shield", see how it works in BF3, that is "close" to reality

[Lightdragon]

infinite xaer0, on 30 May 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

well.. some mechs do have "ballistic shields", if you consider the arms to be ballistic shields for the mech's torso

those arent really shields though.. those are false armor baffles

Edited by Lightdragon, 30 May 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Novakaine]

This Mechwarrior Online not Robotech Online.
Good Gravy.

[Slyck]

I always sort of wondered something like this. Why did no one develope a a slab of armour that a mech with hands could just carry in front of itself for cover and then ditch when it was approaching an enemy strong point?

Game-wise I suppose the balance of a few extra tons of temporary armour is an issue, but in lore it seams like the kind of goat thinking that regularly happens in a battlefield.

Edited by Slyck, 30 May 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[NeoDac]

cinco, on 30 May 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

dumb idea. that's what armor is for. and while we're changing lore around, lets change the cockpit to be more sensible. it should simply be a sensor suite with the pilot embedded deep inside the armor instead of behind a piece of glass.

sorry sir but you just quoted lore here.. some mechs do have a "ferroglass" or "armorplas" viewport but many mechs also cannonically do just what you suggested. the outside of the head has sensors and the pilot has screens inside that give the illusion of direct vision but no mech uses anything as simple as "glass" these materials are nearly as tough as the true mech armor the main screen which is a mechwarriors primary view of the world (supposedly even in cockpits with see through canopies) gives a 360 degree view of the battlefield in 180 degrees visual (keeping everything within range of the peripheral vision when looking straight ahead) there is also a smaller backup screen though the direct view is considered a good backup.. as lets face it it can't break down.. get smudged cracked broken ect yes but its not going to short out if say.. a mech taser (also real tech not good tech but real tech) pumps a few million volts through it.

Btw i have a lot of laughs ever time people mention how huge the marauders cockpit is because anyone who says it is most probably looking at a "robotech officers battlepod" picture (those have huge cockpits for huge people) mind the tech readout picture doesn't leave you a good idea where it is.. but i tend to say its that little square right at the nose assuming it has a view-port at all

and yes shields are in the Total wars rule-set and official i was actually a bit saddened to see project blue shield made official though.

so yeah aside from a rant about cockpits cause i get annoyed sometimes.. shields exist accept it move on do not mention mechassault as cannon again those shields were their version of reactive and reflective armor (the difference being the REAL thing isn't a turn on turn off)

[Skylarr]

The picture of a Cyclop actuals shows an Armored Cowl (5 points extra head armor, 0.5 tons. For non-frontal attack). The head should look like a bent tube.

Edited by Skylarr, 30 May 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[tynaiden]

Skylarr, on 30 May 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

The picture of a Cyclop actuals shows an Armored Cowl (5 points extra head armor, 0.5 tons. For non-frontal attack). The head should look like a bent tube.

Only other thing of any sort relating to armor or shielding is Armored Components, also from Maximum Tech as Armored Cowl was.
The ZUE-X picutred on the Maximum Tech book cover (and DireWolf307's sig, great one btw) are another example of the Cowl

[Vanguard319]

I don't see a problem with it, there are a few mechs that feature shield-like armor sections whose only function seems to be to take 1~3 hits that may have otherwise destroyed a component, also, the Centurion appears to have a shield-like bracer on it's left arm, so it doesn't seem out of the question.

[Kassious]

I'd have to agree, seeing the mechs that have a manipulator arm that's currently useless in MW:O.
I'm not sure how they are going to do it, but in MW4's mechlab you had a max amount of armor you could put on a specific area of the mech (which made sense, internal structures only being able to hold up so much weight) so having another way to get more protection could be handy on an arm that doesn't do much. (No pun intended)

[Toothman]

Steel Talon, on 30 May 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Reactive armor works like "shield", see how it works in BF3, that is "close" to reality

Reactive armor is only effective against HEAT rounds. Anything else, APDS for example its pretty much useless.

[Oswin Aurelius]

I'm all for shields, but only like what's already on the Centurion's artwork. Something that's on an arm that doesn't otherwise hold any equipment and helps cover the 'mech's torso from that side. You know, make that extra limb actually count for something.

For all of you saying this isn't Gundam or Armored Core or whatever and nothing else, screw you. We're trying to discuss the merits and disadvantages external armor plates (which are both feasible AND canonical) and all you have to say is how you hate (insert other mech franchise here). We don't care if you hate Gundam or Armored Core, we care about why you think shields are not a good idea.

[tynaiden]

The flanges, panels, stand-offs, and cowl-like structures are all assumed to be represented by the armor points allocated on the 'mech sheets. Images of 'mechs past and present are just visual representations of how the armor points are presented physically on the 'mech design, and with a bit of artistic license thrown in. Nothing more than extra flair.
Not even in expanded tech manuals (to my knowledge) are there handheld shields or separate structures for protection.

A discussion in general about merits and downfalls of external armor plates or shielding is not an issue. When it is presented as a part of Battletech and/or Mechwarrior Online, it can become one as there is no precedence for them in the universe being presented by the developers or the Battletech universe thus far.

[Clay Pigeon]

OP seems not to be talking about metaltech-esque energy shields, but rather the shields you would associate with combat from the middle ages. I don't see why they couldn't implement that if/when they implement melee.

[Helphyre]

I voted yes for shields, but I only though of them in a limited sense. Basically fixed shielding that could ba allocated to a specific location. i.e. could mounts weapons on one side and shield on other so you could turn your shielded side to attacks to wait until a volley is over or your heat level drops. Or on the back of light mechs to protect against retreats. I have several other ideas for a limited implementation of shields but Ill wait to spell them out if they are even gunna be present in games. But like everyone else....,. please no Gundam, ninja shields.

[Orion Pirate]

How do you use it?

Mechs do not move faster then bullets. You are a harder target to hit if you are moving, not standing still holding a shield.

Also, if you have a shield out in front of you, how do you use your weapons, since it would block most of them in some way.

Not to mention the fact that Battletech mechs are slower in reaction then what you are considering... At least that is how I think of them...

Edited by Orion Pirate, 30 May 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[NeoDac]

tynaiden, on 30 May 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

The flanges, panels, stand-offs, and cowl-like structures are all assumed to be represented by the armor points allocated on the 'mech sheets. Images of 'mechs past and present are just visual representations of how the armor points are presented physically on the 'mech design, and with a bit of artistic license thrown in. Nothing more than extra flair.
Not even in expanded tech manuals (to my knowledge) are there handheld shields or separate structures for protection.

A discussion in general about merits and downfalls of external armor plates or shielding is not an issue. When it is presented as a part of Battletech and/or Mechwarrior Online, it can become one as there is no precedence for them in the universe being presented by the developers or the Battletech universe thus far.

page numbers and books have been quoted and all forms of shields are being considered though handheld shields are not a far stretch since "modular" or "handheld" external weapons are cannon as well the tonnages for what each arm on a mech of any given tonnage can carry above and beyond the armoring and weapons this could easily be used to mount a shield (via the shield rules given) in a handheld format as long as the weight matches up (handheld weapons have to have internal ammo and heat sinks and thus are very limited in usefulness..) such a shield would make all weapons and such in the holding arm (or arms as it might take both to lift) would be useless as probably would the chest weapons if held in two

so yeah i'd have to run the actual numbers but i see nothing in the rules that keeps one from making one

ps. armored cowls are also cannon rules 5 points of extra head armor that make max head armor 14 (it has been mentioned that they are directional.. havent read the rules recently enough) so your arguments on cowl like structures not having game effects are invalid

[Steel Raven]

As pointed out befor, already exist in the BTU



Untill they make it modular like hatchets, your better off using the tonnage for standad armor in my opintion