400 replies to this topic

[Tikkamasala]

Jestun, on 12 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

...
WOW! the laser is sooooo much more skillful! How can people manage to use them?!?!!?

You sound like someone who would be happy to get a red reticle once in a while sweeping laser beams across the screen.

Edit: There's a slight but important difference between laser step 3 and guided missile step 2.

Edited by Tikkamasala, 12 March 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[Jestun]

Tikkamasala, on 12 March 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

You sound like someone who would be happy to get a red reticle once in a while sweeping laser beams across the screen.

Edit: There's a slight but important difference between laser step 3 and guided missile step 2.

I clearly stated that you need to maintain the aim, and in my edit added that a standard (non-pulse) laser required 1 second of aim.

At no point did I advocate clicking and wiggling the mouse at random.

re: your edit, yes there is. Lasers last 1 second, lockon can take longer depending on the circumstances.

No circumstances require laser aim to be maintained for a longer period of time.


However, the other difference in LRM / SSRM's favour is that it maintains the lock after firing. This means that for consecutive shots you may not need to maintain aim. Personally I would have no problem with LRM / SSRM losing lock when you fired so acquiring a lock was required each time you wanted to fire.

Edited by Jestun, 12 March 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Tikkamasala]

The target cross section is much larger to acquire and maintain a guided missile lock. Having LoS to tiny parts of the enemy is already enough to ensure an artemis enhanced flight-path and damage spread (centered too much on the ct, even though i only saw a toe or shoulder).

[Sheraf]

Jestun, on 12 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I clearly stated that you need to maintain the aim, and in my edit added that a standard (non-pulse) laser required 1 second of aim.

At no point did I advocate clicking and wiggling the mouse at random.

re: your edit, yes there is. Lasers last 1 second, lockon can take longer depending on the circumstances.

No circumstances require laser aim to be maintained for a longer period of time.


However, the other difference in LRM / SSRM's favour is that it maintains the lock after firing. This means that for consecutive shots you may not need to maintain aim. Personally I would have no problem with LRM / SSRM losing lock when you fired so acquiring a lock was required each time you wanted to fire.

I do release lock on purpose after firing to have the missile do some unexpected steering. LRM need to maintain lock to continue guiding the missile. If you suggest it lose lock after firing, but it still need to track. That means I can now target multiple mechs to launch LRM at, and don't even need to worry about maintaining the lock

Tikkamasala, on 12 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

The target cross section is much larger to acquire and maintain a guided missile lock. Having LoS to tiny parts of the enemy is already enough to ensure an artemis enhanced flight-path and damage spread (centered too much on the ct, even though i only saw a toe or shoulder).

If the LoS duration is so little, that means you have the cover, use it

Edited by Sheraf, 12 March 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Revorn, on 10 March 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Atm when you wrote TAG and easy to use, your Post comes obsolent. Ever tryed to TAG an Mech consant for 5 seconds, or maybe only 3? Every shot with an Point Klick weapon is more easy, exept your Oponent stand still or is an slow movin Awesome/Atlas.

You've got to be joking! You do realise that LRMs have a minimum range of 180m right? So we're not talking about tagging a light that's in your face. I love, simply love tagging lights and melting them with LRMs. It's so easy that usually it only takes one salvo with Artemis. 109 damage spread over LT/CT/RT? Yeah. Not surviving that. If you can't keep your cursor hovering on something over 200m away it's either gone behind cover (in which case you should seriously consider saving your ammo) or you need to buy a better mouse!

[StalaggtIKE]

This has already be stated before, however I'll just reiterate:
LRM received no changes this latest patch. The only difference that effects them, was a change in Artemis formation, which requires los. Take a look at the video below:

As you can see Artemis forms the missile up in a helix like formation. This means two things:

• missiles impact a tighter more uniform point
  
• missiles no longer hit in one clump, but staggers

First off, you must allow the LRM pilot get los sight to you, without presenting a challenge (firing back). Next, the missiles come in at you and impact at a precise location. The missile formation staggers, giving you time to torso twist, in order spread the damage. Unlike lasers, he can not compensate the aim to make up for your ability to shift the damage around prior to impact.

[Tikkamasala]

Sheraf, on 12 March 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

If the LoS duration is so little, that means you have the cover, use it

That's exactly what happened. I killed the enemy mech with aLRMs even though he was mostly behind cover.

[Sheraf]

Tikkamasala, on 12 March 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

That's exactly what happened. I killed the enemy mech with aLRMs even though he was mostly behind cover.

That one must be very bad. Hope we will meet someday, try to kill me behind cover with your LRM

[Tikkamasala]

StalaggtIKE, on 12 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

This has already be stated before, however I'll just reiterate:
LRM received no changes this latest patch. The only difference that effects them, was a change in Artemis formation, which requires los.

The changes to the missile flight path resulting in more concentrated damage in the center torso is probably what started the current round of complains. And the LoS requirements for that are not as tight as for other direct fire weapons.

Sheraf, on 12 March 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

That one must be very bad. Hope we will meet someday, try to kill me behind cover with your LRM

I usually don't waste my lrms on useful cover. There's a lot of "cover" that won't save you from lrms though. I can move around as well...
Long story short, artemis lrms are very safe and effective in the solo launch environment. I'd like them to increase the damage spread again; especially if you cannot benefit from artemis, i.e. LoS.

[Sheraf]

I found this situation where even direct LoS artemis doesn't work very well, when you launch LRM at target in the open, but moving up a slope. I wish I could actively disable my Artemis whenever I want

Edited by Sheraf, 12 March 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Void Angel]

RickySpanish, on 12 March 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

You've got to be joking! You do realise that LRMs have a minimum range of 180m right? So we're not talking about tagging a light that's in your face. I love, simply love tagging lights and melting them with LRMs. It's so easy that usually it only takes one salvo with Artemis. 109 damage spread over LT/CT/RT? Yeah. Not surviving that. If you can't keep your cursor hovering on something over 200m away it's either gone behind cover (in which case you should seriously consider saving your ammo) or you need to buy a better mouse!

You're... not hitting my light with your LRMs. Because I am not an *****.

Edit: Ok, enough is enough; I cannot believe that "*****" requires a language filter. After all, I can say, dullard, fool, nincompoop, ignoramus, imbecile, dolt...

Edited by Void Angel, 12 March 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Tikkamasala, on 12 March 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

The changes to the missile flight path resulting in more concentrated damage in the center torso is probably what started the current round of complains.

Yes, but that was coupled with a staggering of the missiles. Look at the video I posted. Before the last patch, missiles impacted in one big THUD! Now it is more like CLUNK.., CLUNK,CLUNK. During that period you can torso twist to limit the severity of the impact.

Quote

And the LoS requirements for that are not as tight as for other direct fire weapons.

Nonsense! If anything it's stricter. Your volley must start off with los and end with los, with enough time to impact. Too late and your volley is too spread out to make a difference. As for direct fire weapons, perhaps I'm just a really good shot..., LOL. I doubt it. I can fire my UAC5 and PPCs way easier with a couple of seconds of los, because they're so much faster.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 March 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Void Angel, on 12 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

You're... not hitting my light with your LRMs. Because I am not an *****.

Edit: Ok, enough is enough; I cannot believe that "*****" requires a language filter. After all, I can say, dullard, fool, nincompoop, ignoramus, imbecile, dolt...

If you're within my LOS and more than 200 metres away, you're not going to be duking my laser bro.

[Nightcrept]

I wish we could see each others elo scores.

The reason I say that is in my games there are generally tons of direct fire sniper builds and light mechs and very few lrms.
If you break cover to fire your lrms with the artemis bonus you get nailed by at least one sniper. If you stay out in the open to keep lock and artemis bonus you get repeatedly hit by the snipers and nearly killed.

You must stay with your team or get eaten by the light mechs.

If you stay with your team you almost always end up caught up in the brawl.


I run a lrm boat as one of the 4 I rotate when pugging and I would definitely enjoy being in the elo brackets you guys are describing.

[Suko]

Nightcrept, on 12 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

I wish we could see each others elo scores.

The reason I say that is in my games there are generally tons of direct fire sniper builds and light mechs and very few lrms.
If you break cover to fire your lrms with the artemis bonus you get nailed by at least one sniper. If you stay out in the open to keep lock and artemis bonus you get repeatedly hit by the snipers and nearly killed.

You must stay with your team or get eaten by the light mechs.

If you stay with your team you almost always end up caught up in the brawl.


I run a lrm boat as one of the 4 I rotate when pugging and I would definitely enjoy being in the elo brackets you guys are describing.

You might be on to something. I don't see LRMs too often in my games. When I do, they are always in groups of 3+ mechs, making me believe that they are probably with 1 or 2 groups. Like you, most of the games I play in have PPCs/AC20s and buttloads of lasers. I would say that I only see 1/10 mechs in the games I play have LRMs of any significance.

[RickySpanish]

Nightcrept, on 12 March 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

I wish we could see each others elo scores.

The reason I say that is in my games there are generally tons of direct fire sniper builds and light mechs and very few lrms.
If you break cover to fire your lrms with the artemis bonus you get nailed by at least one sniper. If you stay out in the open to keep lock and artemis bonus you get repeatedly hit by the snipers and nearly killed.

You must stay with your team or get eaten by the light mechs.

If you stay with your team you almost always end up caught up in the brawl.


I run a lrm boat as one of the 4 I rotate when pugging and I would definitely enjoy being in the elo brackets you guys are describing.

ShadowVFX, on 12 March 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

You might be on to something. I don't see LRMs too often in my games. When I do, they are always in groups of 3+ mechs, making me believe that they are probably with 1 or 2 groups. Like you, most of the games I play in have PPCs/AC20s and buttloads of lasers. I would say that I only see 1/10 mechs in the games I play have LRMs of any significance.

Aha! The ol' skill argument!

Even if I throw aside every point I've tried to make about LRMs being a terrible weapon to snipe with and instead being FAR more effective as a medium range weapon focussed on someone who is already being harassed, skill requirement still (sadly) has little baring on whether or not something is balanced.

Because LRMs + Artemis are available to everyone of all skill levels, the average use case must be evaluated.

PS. Sniping and brawling takes no more skill than sitting on a hill lobbing LRMs like a tit.

Edited by RickySpanish, 12 March 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Nightcrept]

No.

Actually I was wondering were all the lrm boaters where since they aren't in my games.

Elo separates players according to how well they play. That being said I have no clue if your better then me only that I don't see any lrm boats.

One per team is the avg in most of my games.
The majority of players in my games are ppc-erppc snipers.

I just ran alpine and was the only lrm boater on either team. I couldn't hit anyone for half the game because they sat back and used their long range weapons.

I was not referring to balance only trying to figure out if lrm boaters are being grouped together for some reason.

[RickySpanish]

Nightcrept, on 12 March 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

No.

Actually I was wondering were all the lrm boaters where since they aren't in my games.

Elo separates players according to how well they play. That being said I have no clue if your better then me only that I don't see any lrm boats.

One per team is the avg in most of my games.
The majority of players in my games are ppc-erppc snipers.

I just ran alpine and was the only lrm boater on either team. I couldn't hit anyone for half the game because they sat back and used their long range weapons.

I was not referring to balance only trying to figure out if lrm boaters are being grouped together for some reason.

Look at any MMOG that has balance issues (all of them). They will always balance around whatever nets them the most money or they will perish. In the case of MWO and in the absence of e-sport play, they will balance in a way which makes the majority user experience most enjoyable. This is likely to result in an adjustment to LRM + Artemis use in the same way that ECM is going to be looked at - even if it does take a while. I personally would welcome a nerf to the effectiveness of the LRM + Artemis combo, which I foresee happening once more people start running LRMs as a medium range weapon instead of sniping with them. Although I enjoy my Awesome 8R's 4.0 KDR, I'm pretty sure the majority of my opponents don't.

[Nightcrept]

I do not think they need a nerf. AS I have repeated over and over and over we balanced them as close to perfection as we could get them back in nov just before the ecm patch.

All the lrm artemis changes in this past patch did was stop me from using a flight path glitch to cause more damage then I should.
It has not increased ct hit rate in the least.

[Suko]

<REDACTED>

My momma always told me that if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all. So, I removed this post.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 12 March 2013 - 02:11 PM.