567 replies to this topic

[Fiachdubh]

Vast improvement, hate using Thermal as it is currently.

EDIT: Oh yea and thanks!

Edited by Fiachdubh, 08 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Again I say:

How will this coincide with the current implementation of ECM? Currently, thermal was the only way to see a group under ECM bubble. Will this result in more successful base rushes? Also, in the River City picture, I can vaguely tell that's a Jenner, so when IFF is disabled through ECM, there will be further confusion. They look nice, however ECM must be considered.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 March 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[ParasiteX]

Volume, on 07 March 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

Any chance of getting some Mechwarrior 2-style "enhanced imaging" with wireframes and damage representation? I think it'd be cool

I'm pretty sure that the enhanced image mode in MW2 is clan tech.

[Agent of Change]

In deference to the ToS I'll keep this PG and restrain myself.

This looks like absolute awesomeness. I will actually need to cycle vision modes now, NV looks like it will actually be useful and HV well it doesn't automatically replace regular vision.

*golf clap* Good jorb i say good jorb

[FuzzyLog1c]

Night vision looks good, but PGI should consider offering an user-toggled IR illuminator which offers better visibility at the cost of making your mech stand out like a beacon. For the art guys, check out these comparison images showing grain, artifacting (dust/bugs), and barrel distortion. You may want to check out this thread, which offers EXCELLENT comparison images between different systems, at different ranges, with and without illuminators:

http://www.ar15.com/...&f=209&t=203259











Thermal vision also looks good, but PGI should consider implementing color as an upgrade.







To recap, the problem with PGI's original implementation is that night vision was calibrated way too hot, and thermal vision had unbelievable range.

Now that the basic problems have been fixed, the next step for both of these devices is to implement their major weakness: a delayed response to rapidly changing lighting and thermal conditions. Most devices nowdays feature a stepped or progressive auto-calibration feature. Flashes of light (e.g. headlights) and blasts of heat (e.g. the flamer) can temporarily blind the user, if limiters are not properly set. Systems tuned to detect cold objects will rapidly become overwhelmed by hot objects, and vice versa.

This also brings to the forefront the possibility of implementing more primitive countermeasures such as smoke (both dumb smoke and smoke systems under testing that are intended to hamper thermal systems), flares, decoy heat sources (e.g. setting a pile of trash on fire), and thermal masking by standing in front of warm objects. You may also want to note that thermal doesn't work so well against very fast, cool objects. It is effectively useless against distant ones.

Edited by FuzzyLog1c, 08 March 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Matta]

Improved night vision - check !
Slightly nerfed "allmighty" thermal vision - check !
Normal vision gets more important - check !

Good job guys.

[skamage]

Love the changes to both really. Thermal is hard on the eyes and didn't like it on night maps for that sole reason. Night vision was terrible and unusable. Now all three have their place.

[NitroBurst]

Night Vision actually looks way better I think. Thermal will need tweaking as was mentioned by the Devs, but I like the direction they are taking with it. It won't be the "go to" vision mode for many scenarios and I like that (it's more tactical; gives it the feeling of speciality that it should have). In short: "ME LIIIIIIIIIKE!!!!"

[3rdworld]

Staunchly oppose this.

Limiting vision to 700m is an artificial limit on pilot skill. If this were a MMO, it would be nerfing an encounter for casuals

This change makes all ER weapons completely obsolete. Why use an ERPPC to shoot targets under 700m when a PPC can deal damage out to 900m?

This buffs the already powerfull D-DC & RVN-3L by decreasing the available fire window on these mechs, with already higher than average usage and the upcoming buffs from Modules these mechs will be vastly superior to all others.

Solution. Make all vision modes capable of being used to snipe, instead of nerfing the only way we have to see a mech at distance.

[NitroBurst]

FuzzyLog1c, on 08 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

THAT LOOKS COOL!! Ok, so PGI take notice! Add smoke rounds to the SRM missile inventory. This can be used in such a diverse sort of ways (offense, defense, decoy, etc.) but the Thermal Vision can penetrate some if not all of that. Move and countermove sort of mentality. Thermal should then be limited in some fashion, maybe range (idk, not much experience with them in general) that way it counters the smoke rounds but the limits after that are evident.

[Neklatan]

It's a good change the one made to nighvision. The "eye melting" bloom had to be removed for it to be viable.

Regarding the thermal change, looks like a good one, but I would like more screenshots (possibly a video?) that can show the progression of distance on it's effect. But looking good so far.

Despite those positive changes, I think that film grain and depth of field should be part of that discussion, given how negatively they affect normal vision. IMO, both should be removable.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

StalaggtIKE, on 07 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Looks great! My only concern is, how will this coincide with the current implementation of ECM. Currently, thermal was the only way to see a group under ECM bubble. Will this result in more successful base rushes? Also, in the River City picture, I can vaguely tell that's a Jenner, so when IFF is disabled through ECM, there will be further confusion.

I hope you'll do a command chair soon for ECM since it's been ignored for a month since the QnA when you said you would.

Every time you make a change, ECM is affecting it. Even when it's something like thermal and night vision.

[StalaggtIKE]

3rdworld, on 08 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Staunchly oppose this.

Limiting vision to 700m is an artificial limit on pilot skill. If this were a MMO, it would be nerfing an encounter for casuals

This change makes all ER weapons completely obsolete. Why use an ERPPC to shoot targets under 700m when a PPC can deal damage out to 900m?

This buffs the already powerfull D-DC & RVN-3L by decreasing the available fire window on these mechs, with already higher than average usage and the upcoming buffs from Modules these mechs will be vastly superior to all others.

Solution. Make all vision modes capable of being used to snipe, instead of nerfing the only way we have to see a mech at distance.

You hit some great points. If anything, these modes should have visibility extended to 1000m. With ECM providing stealth, one can not rely on normal mode to see. Currently, ECM mechs fulfill the role of scouting, brawlers and skirmishers. While the rest of the mechs being less adaptable. With these proposed changes to vision, ECM mechs will now fulfill the role of sniper. After all they can still pick out a non-ECM mech at 800m+ with radar assistance.

Edit: Toss in the Airstrike and Artillery modules and non-ECM mechs are further screwed. I imagine that the launch screen for these two modules will be similar to the Battlegrid map. Which means ECM mechs will be invisible. In the meantime non-ECM mechs will be lit up, prime targets for bombardment.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 March 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[NitroBurst]

3rdworld, on 08 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Staunchly oppose this.

Limiting vision to 700m is an artificial limit on pilot skill. If this were a MMO, it would be nerfing an encounter for casuals

This change makes all ER weapons completely obsolete. Why use an ERPPC to shoot targets under 700m when a PPC can deal damage out to 900m?

This buffs the already powerfull D-DC & RVN-3L by decreasing the available fire window on these mechs, with already higher than average usage and the upcoming buffs from Modules these mechs will be vastly superior to all others.

Solution. Make all vision modes capable of being used to snipe, instead of nerfing the only way we have to see a mech at distance.

Ehhhh...If you cannot see any opponent beyond 700 meters, the logic would be that they cannot see you either. ECM does not mask heat signature so if the situation calls for thermal vision (which should be almost the same to your opponent) and it has a range limit (and I believe that is realistic and good) then switch to thermal and keep your eyes peeled. Work as a team and you will have several pairs of eyes peeled for such enemies. Each Vision Mode should have its pros and cons. It would not be as challenging or tactical as it should be if all vision modes had the same stats, just with a different lens. If it were like this, ppl would just find the most useful and stick to it (kinda like the 3L and DC you mentioned earlier ) I believe the problem you are referring to does not have anything to do with the visions, it is with those mechs themselves or the equipment they carry. That is what should be addressed in order for things to fall into place.

Edit: What I mentioned is a situation of visibility (eyeball). Sensors is a different ball game because of the ECM equip you mentioned. But like I mentioned as well, the problem then most likely therein lies on that piece of tech.

Edited by NitroBurst, 08 March 2013 - 06:18 AM.

[AmAce]

that grey scale is perfect for that military feel allot like the thermal used by military and police around the world today and not so much like the predator movies

also will be happy to run night mode on river city with a better night vision mode

[StalaggtIKE]

NitroBurst, on 08 March 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ehhhh...If you cannot see any opponent beyond 700 meters, the logic would be that they cannot see you either. ECM does not mask heat signature so if the situation calls for thermal vision (which should be almost the same to your opponent) and it has a range limit (and I believe that is realistic and good) then switch to thermal and keep your eyes peeled. Work as a team and you will have several pairs of eyes peeled for such enemies. Each Vision Mode should have its pros and cons. It would not be as challenging or tactical as it should be if all vision modes had the same stats, just with a different lens. If it were like this, ppl would just find the most useful and stick to it (kinda like the 3L and DC you mentioned earlier ) I believe the problem you are referring to does not have anything to do with the visions, it is with those mechs themselves or the equipment they carry. That is what should be addressed in order for things to fall into place.

Edit: What I mentioned is a situation of visibility (eyeball). Sensors is a different ball game because of the ECM equip you mentioned. But like I mentioned as well, the problem then most likely therein lies on that piece of tech.

You are completely correct. However until that tech is "fixed", it must be considered in the development of all subsequent technologies and additions.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 08 March 2013 - 06:26 AM.

[Herne-son]

I'm very glad to hear that these are being improved, there's some great suggestions in the thread too.

For my own two cents: in keeping with the gameplay/appearance/realism requirements, i'd suggest only the following. Each mode of view (thermal, NV, none) should have its benefits and drawbacks. So, you'll never be okay in just one mode at all times, there's going to be information you have to go looking for in the other modes.

Thermal, as shown in the proposal, looks great aesthetically and realistically. For gameplay limitations, any non-heated objects (e.g. buildings, mountains, roads) should appear more like blobby fudged shapes. So the only clear objects are hot (e.g. fires, cars, trucks, lamps, hotter mechs), but it is very difficult to navigate the terrain. I realise this is probably not how real life FLIR cameras work, but this is a game that needs its player to weigh the variables.

NV, as suggested above, could fare differently based on the amount of ambient light in any given section of the map. All objects render clearly, given the light level (or lack of). The pilot has the option to toggle an IR lamp, which has its own quirks:
- makes objects in a cone ahead clearly visible, but over exposed/glarey (like how the current version looks)
- makes you highly visible to other users of NV mode
- blinds users of NV whom have the lamp pointed at them (works both ways of course)
I realise this could require something of a considerable review of map lighting, so as to keep everything balanced.

I hope that's of use. Cheers

Edited by T Hickock, 08 March 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[3rdworld]

NitroBurst, on 08 March 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Ehhhh...If you cannot see any opponent beyond 700 meters, the logic would be that they cannot see you either. ECM does not mask heat signature so if the situation calls for thermal vision (which should be almost the same to your opponent) and it has a range limit (and I believe that is realistic and good) then switch to thermal and keep your eyes peeled. Work as a team and you will have several pairs of eyes peeled for such enemies. Each Vision Mode should have its pros and cons. It would not be as challenging or tactical as it should be if all vision modes had the same stats, just with a different lens. If it were like this, ppl would just find the most useful and stick to it (kinda like the 3L and DC you mentioned earlier ) I believe the problem you are referring to does not have anything to do with the visions, it is with those mechs themselves or the equipment they carry. That is what should be addressed in order for things to fall into place.

Why do I care about ecm masking heat? I can peal the armor off of an atlas at 1000m pretty easy. You are letting the D-DC get closer at the start of the fight. That is a huge buff for a mech as large and slow as an atlas. I can place rounds consistently on targets over 700m currently as can most skilled pilots. This nerf to range buffs brawlers while limiting sniping.

How is 700m realisitic? You know that is not even half of a mile correct? My eyes would not have any trouble spotting a 3-5 story mech walking around at half a mile.

What do you possibly gain by limiting my vision? Oh it prevents nubs from getting destroyed from 1000m but that is it. It does nothing positive than buff bads.

The modes don't need pros and cons. They each just need a purpose. winter maps ->heat vision. Clear maps->normal. Night maps->night vision. People use thermal now because it is the only way to see a mech at over a 1000m (you know the effective range of half of the weapons). If Night or normal could see that far, I would use them. But nerfing my ability to see that far is absurd.

[MadPanda]

I don't like the thermal vision change. It reminds me of the Alien night vision.

[VagGR]

absolutely perfect...pls implement those changes asap....