567 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

It's about time that every vision mode became viable.

+1 for awesome change

[Tarman]

BlueSanta, on 08 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

I have stopped paying.

They're not just dudes. They're professionals in their fields, supposedly. They don't always realize when they screw up and try to fix it (ECM, MM, Streaks, etc.).

And that's the exact reason we have a forum that they listen to, no matter how angsty and loud it gets in here sometimes.

Professionals are still people. Last I checked anyway. Ima assume you've never designed and built complex systems before, like say, a multiplayer online game. Being professional is not the same as NOTHING I DO CAN BE IN ERROR. It's called reality. Look at Bethesda, with literally millions in cash and a design team of hundreds, and then go look at how many times the players of their games have to patch their games on their own.

[NitroBurst]

Apnu, on 08 March 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Keep in mind that in 3050 technology was still being "rediscovered" from the dark age following Kerensky's exodus. In BT lore, many manufacturers hardly knew how their factories worked and knew about enough to keep them going. That's why the Gray Death Memory Core was such a big deal.

I wholly agree. "BARTENDER, SWING US SOME BEERS WOULD YA?!!"

[Dark Radiance]

What is the point of having direct fire weapons that can reach nearly 2km, when normal vision (and now all alternate visions) cap out around 700m-1000m? There's too much fog in the maps to see any further without the current thermal vision.

I'm not opposed to the vision mode changes, but what are you doing about the weapons that are being effectively nerfed b/c of the changes?

[KING-BASTARD]

This looks awesome guys! Really excited about this patch.

[Matthew Craig]

Dark Radiance, on 08 March 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

What is the point of having direct fire weapons that can reach nearly 2km, when normal vision (and now all alternate visions) cap out around 700m-1000m? There's too much fog in the maps to see any further without the current thermal vision.

I'm not opposed to the vision mode changes, but what are you doing about the weapons that are being effectively nerfed b/c of the changes?

No one said normal vision caps out, as mentioned in an earlier post the draw distance issue for Mechs was a bug that's been fixed.

[3rdworld]

Matthew Craig, on 08 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

No one said normal vision caps out, as mentioned in an earlier post the draw distance issue for Mechs was a bug that's been fixed.

Could you give us a screen of this? I know you said the pic was not zoomed in the command chair. It would help ease some tension.

[Noobzorz]

I'm concerned about the possibility that this is a thermal overnerf, but obviously I have no idea if that's true and I wont until I see it.

Anyways, a very cool direction for these two modes to go, and I'm happy to hear about the zoom as well.

[Tarman]

Matthew Craig, on 08 March 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Interesting but my first thought would be that if you now had Mechs both near and far that the smearing effect from the far ones would make the near information useless perhaps?

Would that depend on the decay length of the trail? If the trail decay had decent fade or a stuttered effect would that help to delineate it?

[jay35]

Matthew Craig, on 08 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

jay35, we're not saying that will always be the case in the short term perhaps but longer term there can be modes to give you the ability to snipe in the dark etc. but the goal is to ensure you have to make a trade-off to do so and that, that behavior is not just available by default to everyone. So in future you may have a spotter on your team who's load-out choices allow him to get your team that information and act on it actively encouraging more active team communication.

In the short term though this will be a side effect of these changes, though I don't think it hurts to see how it plays without that as an option for a little while, maybe it should be pretty hard to snipe in the dark/bad weather conditions?

Perhaps, but so long as we have random map assignment, why would anyone risk bringing a long-range build anymore if on half the maps they land on, they're going to be at a signficant combat disadvantage to a brawler?

There's presently no way to select a build appropriate for each map, so which do you think people will do: Risk taking a long-range Ballistic or Energy mech where half the time they're essentially put at an automatic disadvantage for their weapons compared to a brawler build, or, take the safe choice and bring a brawler build that will work reasonably well on any map and exceptionally well on those maps that are now 700m max engagement range?

These changes will likely discourage diversity in builds more so than is already the case due to random map assignment, because now the "safe" builds that will be effective across all maps are fewer because most long-range builds are potentially no longer as viable on half the maps.

Anyway, thanks for acknowledging the concern.

Edited by jay35, 08 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[jay35]

Thontor, I would consider short to mid-range brawling to be inside of 540m.

Are you aware of damage drop-off? Most weapons that range between 450-540m extend out to 700m with a good portion of their damage. And closing the gap from 700m to 500m happens very quickly.

I could be wrong, but I anticipate a 700m max distance on heat and night vision modes as described in the Command Chair post will curb or cull longer range builds as soon as players realize how pointless those builds become if they can't successfully spot and engage enemies at range on any map that isn't clear daylight. It shouldn't have any significant impact on brawler builds except to provide them more targets in their engagement range or more competition as more users bring brawler builds.

As for vision mode visuals, getting "stuck on River City Night" wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was the only map where using night vision or heat vision was a requirement. Instead, because presently we end up using heat vision on just about every map, RCN's downside is amplified. There's no question changes to the vision modes are needed. But cutting the range at which they work is likely to have unintended negative consequences.

Edited by jay35, 08 March 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Bromineberry]

The new vision modes look great. I really like them and I think, they're much better then the vision modes now.

[Vasces Diablo]

Can't wait to use the new night vision. Maybe I won't hate on Rver City Night so much anymore.

[Phoenix Gray]

We need a visual mode for those of us who play in a more "recreationally enhanced" frame of mind. More paisley. Maybe call it Lucid Systems Detection...

[Noth]

jay35, on 08 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Thontor, I would consider short to mid-range brawling to be inside of 540m.

Are you aware of damage drop-off? Most weapons that range between 450-540m extend out to 700m with a good portion of their damage. And closing the gap from 700m to 500m happens very quickly.

I could be wrong, but I anticipate a 700m max distance on heat and night vision modes as described in the Command Chair post will curb or cull longer range builds as soon as players realize how pointless those builds become if they can't successfully spot and engage enemies at range on any map that isn't clear daylight. It shouldn't have any significant impact on brawler builds except to provide them more targets in their engagement range or more competition as more users bring brawler builds.

As for vision mode visuals, getting "stuck on River City Night" wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was the only map where using night vision or heat vision was a requirement. Instead, because presently we end up using heat vision on just about every map, RCN's downside is amplified. There's no question changes to the vision modes are needed. But cutting the range at which they work is likely to have unintended negative consequences.

I will continue to have success with long range builds even after the change. If the change really effects you that much, then I suggest changing your playstyle.

[GroovYChickeN]

I don't know if its been said yet but you should give us the ability to change the polarity of the thermal view like in modern thermal devices. Being able to switch from white/hot to white/cold would be fantastic.

Otherwise FANTASTIC UPDATE!

[Wolfgang Landsknecht]

All very nice but i don't really see the point in fading out thermal contacts at 700m...

[jay35]

Thontor, on 08 March 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Of course I am aware of damage drop off. That's why I said 400m and not 270 or 300

Most brawler weapons do minimal to no damage at 540m.

Most short range brawler builds, perhaps.

Quote

I would consider a brawler weapon to be a weapon with an optimum range of 300m or less..

Well, I spoke to short to mid-range brawler builds. You're clearly speaking to only short-range engagements, out to 300m.
Long range typically doesn't begin until 650m+, and speaks to sniping with weapons like Gauss rifles, ERPPCs, ERLL, and LRM engagements.
450m-540m is the heart of mid-range combat. Yes, long-range weapons are reasonably effective there, but that's the only place they'd be effective when you remove long range engagement as an option. You'd still have the full range of short-range and mid-range weapons available and unimpeded, but only the low end of long-range combat would remain, so long-range weapons will clearly lose a significant portion of their intended and effective range of usefulness when long range is curbed like that.

Edited by jay35, 08 March 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[Dennis de Koning]

Matthew Craig, on 08 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

No one said normal vision caps out, as mentioned in an earlier post the draw distance issue for Mechs was a bug that's been fixed.

[Vulture2k]

good thing, now on to the advanced zoom please