567 replies to this topic

[Steel Smurf]

I like the new looks for these systems, however I would like to comment on the thermal imaging.

I spent ten years serving on M1A1 tanks, and I have to say that their 20th century imaging is much better than this notional future technology. With the TIS, you get incredible detail. I mean you can see enough to identify vehicle types at 2 kilometers, and can see individual track blocks at closer ranges. I am sure that we could get better detail. One function that the TIS also has, and that I would like to see here, is the ability to switch image polarity from white hot to black hot. When I was in the gunners seat, I used this alot.

Just my little bit of input. PGI has been wonderfully responsive to the concerns of the community. Keep up the good work!

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

Really looking forward to both vision modes. Now NV and normal vision are more viable, so I don't have to use thermal all the time!

[Shiro Matsumoto]

This looks very good. i alwys hated to have Thermal on, this game is too good-looking to shoot at color blobs.

[Gremlich Johns]

I like the new night-vision, it actually looks close to real-life thermal observation devices which have replaced passive night-vision devices on major weapons systems. I eschew thermals due to the 8-bit nature of the images so I will pass on judging the feature..

[anfadern]

Like WOT I believe the game would benefit from having pilot experience added into the game in better way. The thermal as well as the night vision modes could incorporate a skill factor. Stick a crew inside the mech and let their skills develop over time, so will their scouting skills.

[Orion Solitaire]

Unfortunately, since I'm out of town for quite awhile I can't see the new changes everyone is writing about. However, I would like to add that grayscale is an accurate implementation of thermal vision.

In addition, if I could add an enhancement for thermal vision, I would give mechwarriors a choice of selecting white hot and black hot as the two choices for viewing thermal images.

Depending on the temperature difference between the targeted object and the environment should dictate how much of the gray scale is actually used. For example, if the there is a 100 degree difference between the mech and the environment, without applying weather effects such as rain, fog or snow, then the contrast/balance would be visually distinctive. However, in hot environment with hot mechs, the temperature difference is minimal resulting in a washed out effect.

An easy way to understand the difference: Large temperature differences between ambient and mech will allow more of the mech to be seen including the outline of the mech against the environment. Small temperature differences will make it very difficult to see the surrounding environment and a mechwarrior would only see thermal reading around engine bays and exhaust outlets.

Also regarding effectiveness of thermals over distance; they can be very effective. If there were maps in which the distances between mechs exceeded the distance to the horizon, appx 8 to 12 miles in one axis depending on the height of the mech; then thermal vision could incorporate the detection of heat plumes.

I can't wait to get back in town and see all the changes since winter. Keep it up developers!

Edited by Orion Solitaire, 16 March 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Arguss10]

This will take away the thermal mode more often which is great. Will you guys be fixing the 4x mode also, as is pretty useless now with blurred vision.

[ArmageddonKnight]

Nice. Current thermals are just to OP atm. Hell its somtimes easier to use them even during Forest Colony during the day for long range shots And NV is just horrible atm. SO yey for changes.

I think the range of the thermal and night vision would need to be increased over 700m. As was stated in the CC post it does kinda nerf snipers. If the ranges stay the same then some of sniper vision would have to be implimented AT THE SAME TIME, to keep things fair.

[Jay Kerensky]

Just wanted to say thanks - it's going to be good to appreciate the detail of the maps again, in normal vision. It was wasted previously with thermal mode as that was the default 'spot a mech' mode.
Can you do anything about Frozen city while we're at it? Night map is great. Day map is just too annoying for words. If I have to play that in normal vision I will go mad. A big pair of mech sunglasses should do the trick

[UberFubarius]

ArmageddonKnight, on 17 March 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Nice. Current thermals are just to OP atm. Hell its somtimes easier to use them even during Forest Colony during the day for long range shots And NV is just horrible atm. SO yey for changes.

You think Forest Colony is bad? Try Caustic Valley. For some bizzare reasons, heat-vision is still more useful than normal vision on that map, a map that's supposedly really, really hot.

ArmageddonKnight, on 17 March 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I think the range of the thermal and night vision would need to be increased over 700m. As was stated in the CC post it does kinda nerf snipers. If the ranges stay the same then some of sniper vision would have to be implimented AT THE SAME TIME, to keep things fair.

I agree, I would argue that instead of a hard cutoff, beyond a certain range (let's say 700m), the contrast ratio will start to drop until say 1500m, where thermal and nightvision can no longer differentiate between the signals.

[Jman5]

Everything looks nice, but I'm very concerned about balance and fun factor with the nerf to thermal. I'm extremely worried that the lack of thermal will make ECM-Cap rushes too easy to pull off on certain maps. If I can't spot the 4 ecm ravens racing around the map, it will force teams to hug their base.

ECM Cap rushes are currently balanced by using your eyes and scanning the avenues of attack. Without thermal vision, you will have to get real close on River City Night or Frozen City Day.

Please, please do some balance tests where one team abuses ecm-capping. This is going to make the game much less fun if you can't adequately scout the rush.

[Zaydin]

I gotta admit, I definitely like both changes.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

UberFubarius, on 18 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

You think Forest Colony is bad? Try Caustic Valley. For some bizzare reasons, heat-vision is still more useful than normal vision on that map, a map that's supposedly really, really hot.

Mech sensors should be able to recalibrate according to the environment, with the ability to fine tune themselves even in hot environments like Caustic Valley.

[Bretii]

Generally I assume this change is ONLY for game play and has no meaning to anything remotely natural or realistically based... Having said that I can tell that many people have not had the experience of looking down the sights of a combat vehicle at night or daylight.

Back in the early 80s I had the luck of working with the Israelis on a project they were doing with thermal sights, one of the sights was ranged for about 3 miles, and the amount of clarity of a object at even 1 mile was very clear. The thermal sites I have used in my 11 years as a recon soldier were mostly red on dark imagery, but I have enjoyed the cool blue.

If you make the change to the X-ray themed thermals, you may as well just take thermals out of the game.

In regards to the night vision, those look dead nuts on.

Please consider that the game year is 3050ish and the tech should support the advancements in technology for the era that we are suppose to be in.

Please don't push tech backwards 2000 years. The 4x zoom is grainy enough, please work on that instead of changing thermal tech to something barely unusable.

[Chrisvader774]

Before I get jumped, two things...I do realize this is a balance issue as well as an aesthetic issue. I also realize this is a game and not real life.

Those two things having been said, based on the screenshots, I like the night vision but absolutely abhor the thermal. I think the night vision is less harsh on the eyes and will be of more use in getting around a map. Maybe not so much for targeting, but I can live with that. Thermal was probably that way by default in the Crytek engine for a reason...thermal imagining in every other medium that I've ever seen is based that way and it's a realistic depiction, in everything from Blue Thunder, to Preadator, to Navy Seals, all range from hues of blue (cool) to white (hottest). Again, I'm not blind to the balancing issues, but I think that there has to be a way to balance the issues with the current color scheme than tuning it to gray scale. For instance, environment may not show up in much of any detail while anything generating heat (including engines) do show up as amophous blobs of varying degrees of heat.

Lastly, I don't know what the final vision is to be on Mechwarrior Online, and I realize that Beta Testing is a great way to work out bugs and what does and doesn't work, so it is my ferverent hope that this will not be the final end goal of the different views, but might I make a humble suggestion? It makes perfect sense to have the different modes available as a free option during Beta as you are testing which modes are best viewed in different environments...for instance, it makes sense that night vision mode is best viewed in River City Night map since it's, well, night. Thermal makes very good sense in Frozen Planet Day, because a blizzard reduces visibility and renders night vision all but useless. But as you get closer to developing more maps with different environmental effects, I do think that you should be moving to integrating night vision and thermal vision as modules to be purchased with C-bills and gxp. Let's face it...night and thermal are supposed to ENHANCE normal vision...that's why we have them in the real world. It's SUPPOSED to give an edge in certain situations! Plus, there's always the option for consumables to help counter the effects for balancing issues (i.e. a blinding flash that washes night vision completely green for 5 seconds or a masking fire bomb that provides cover for a 'mech to get out of the line of fire). Just my two pennies worth.

[Zeus X]

Make these changes for March 19th

[ThePhoenix007]

Chrisvader774, on 19 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Before I get jumped, two things...I do realize this is a balance issue as well as an aesthetic issue. I also realize this is a game and not real life.

Those two things having been said, based on the screenshots, I like the night vision but absolutely abhor the thermal. I think the night vision is less harsh on the eyes and will be of more use in getting around a map. Maybe not so much for targeting, but I can live with that. Thermal was probably that way by default in the Crytek engine for a reason...thermal imagining in every other medium that I've ever seen is based that way and it's a realistic depiction, in everything from Blue Thunder, to Preadator, to Navy Seals, all range from hues of blue (cool) to white (hottest). Again, I'm not blind to the balancing issues, but I think that there has to be a way to balance the issues with the current color scheme than tuning it to gray scale. For instance, environment may not show up in much of any detail while anything generating heat (including engines) do show up as amophous blobs of varying degrees of heat.

Lastly, I don't know what the final vision is to be on Mechwarrior Online, and I realize that Beta Testing is a great way to work out bugs and what does and doesn't work, so it is my ferverent hope that this will not be the final end goal of the different views, but might I make a humble suggestion? It makes perfect sense to have the different modes available as a free option during Beta as you are testing which modes are best viewed in different environments...for instance, it makes sense that night vision mode is best viewed in River City Night map since it's, well, night. Thermal makes very good sense in Frozen Planet Day, because a blizzard reduces visibility and renders night vision all but useless. But as you get closer to developing more maps with different environmental effects, I do think that you should be moving to integrating night vision and thermal vision as modules to be purchased with C-bills and gxp. Let's face it...night and thermal are supposed to ENHANCE normal vision...that's why we have them in the real world. It's SUPPOSED to give an edge in certain situations! Plus, there's always the option for consumables to help counter the effects for balancing issues (i.e. a blinding flash that washes night vision completely green for 5 seconds or a masking fire bomb that provides cover for a 'mech to get out of the line of fire). Just my two pennies worth.

Thermal should be greyscale. Most vehicles use a greyscale thermal vision now. (one instance: )



On a different note, why mask the cockpit, shouldn't the visor each mechwarrior is wearing generate the vision?

[JayVrb]

Everything looks great and i am in full support.

However, as others have mentioned the "overpowered" thermal vision in its current state is one of the only effective counters to ECM. I am afraid this thermal vision nerf, for lack of a better term, is going to give ECM yet another piece of the unbalanced cake =/

[DirePhoenix]

ThePhoenix007, on 19 March 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

On a different note, why mask the cockpit, shouldn't the visor each mechwarrior is wearing generate the vision?

That's what I said earlier. I would think that having the vision modes being projected on the cockpit glass would be a weird choice.

Thontor, on 19 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I imagine it would be pretty hard to see the cockpit controls and computer screen readouts if the vision was on the visor.

But it also means that vision modes would need the integrity of the cockpit glass (the part that takes damage from the outside) to work. If it's projected on the windshield, it should be disabled if the cockpit gets hit. If it's projected on the neurohelmet, it could still function even with the cockpit glass blown out.

[KylleX]

Looks spot on and gorgeous very nice implementation. Here's hoping it comes in with no issues! Great work guys.