188 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Pater Mors, on 07 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

I don't think ECM or LRMs are OP but that's just me. How do you know a 'majority' of players are unhappy with ECM? You know there are a lot more players than just us on the forums right? The FB page alone has over 50k likes.

I haven't had a single issue that other people seem to be having with ECM mechs, it just takes different tactics against them than it does a standard Mech. Maybe you need to adjust your tactics to suite the situation instead of raging about how unfair it is that someone is using a piece of equipment that puts you at a disadvantage in a war.

Soon we're going to be drafting the Geneva convention of MWO.

My issues with ECM have effected you just you were not aware of it.

One big issue is,you may have noticed,that ECM has soaked up inordinate amounts of developer attention for what should be a peripheral piece of support equipment.

We have had numberous adjustments made to the game to suit ECM as it functions now instead of simply addressing ECM directly.

We had mechlab functionality changed to make ECM chassis specific because (in the dev's own words) "some builds become to potent with ECM".The stupid thing about this excuse is standing next to an ECM is just as good as having one on your mech.Instead of altering ECM the Devsalter mechlab.

Apparently the Devs thought ECM was still to potent because TAG was altered to mitigate ECM effects.Again ECM is not altered but some other aspect of the game this time an unrelated missile guidance augmentation is co-opted into the ECM mess.

Next we have TAG enhanced to better perform it's newly added role as an ECM countermeasure that frankly is stupid on a basic design level because ECM actually hard counters TAG.Once again some other feature is altered to try to jam ECM into the game as is rather than alter ECM.

Next we have the module system dragged into the ECM mess by adding in sensor enhancments to help reign in ECM.
Yet again something other than ECM gets developer time in an attempt to make ECM fit.

But wait there's more.PPCs get pulled into the ECM issue by making them yet another countermeasure against ECM.
Why change ECM to fit the game when they can alter yet another totaly unrelated feature to suit ECM.

Next up we have an actual alteration to ECM as a truely idiotic attempt to curb ECM dominance.The Devs who apparently still feel ECM needs more counters set ECM health values to 3 per critical instead of 10.Yet of course all other features and effects of ECM remain unchanged thus the core issues of ECM still exist meaning that this alteration was a total waste of time.

So now we have numberous alterations to the game most of them being to systems that are not ECM.The Devs keep hammering away the rest of the game structure to fit the over powered ECM feature into the game instead of directly addressing ECM.

As a result of spending development resources in this way other features are back burnered like the maps we were suppose to have already or the mechs that are no longer coming at two per month as originally planned.Streak missiles are still not scaled to other weapons in performance or any of the dozens of other additions bug fixes or adjustments that are not specificly designed to cram the giant square peg of ECM into the round hole of everything else.

How many times should developers alter features other than ECM to try to make ECM function before it gets to where we start to take notice? Obviously it's more than 7 times because you feel uneffected.

Edited by Lykaon, 08 March 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Its allways sad to see how many people do care more for joining the "winning train" than to care for a healthy game environment...

Balance means not equalism but a reasonable placing of any type of arms and equipment in context to the game environment and game entertainment - thus the current implementation fails very hard in that regard:
ECM use is absolut void of skill - its a passive type of equipement that has no real drawback while it hard counters weaponsystems, targeting systems, info war - yet it has only soft counters with many drawbacks aside of Counter-ECM that promotes ECM escalation warfare - also ECM is neither fun to use nor is it fun to fight.

ECM = Fail!

Edited by Thorqemada, 08 March 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

now that LRMS hit like a frieght train Im happy with ECM.

The point is LRMs should not hit like a freight train. LRMs should be balanced without ECM. And then there'd be absolutely no reason for ECM to have to counter LRMs.

The whole rock->paper->scissors dynamic of LRMs+ECM is not fun. It's not fun because rock->paper->scissors is not a fun game. Hard counters create scenarios that players can't overcome regardless of how skilled they are. Nobody likes playing games where the enemy mechs hard counter you and there's nothing you can do about it because your team didn't bring certain mechs.

LRMs/Streaks should be useful without being overpowered.
ECM should not hard counter missiles (and wouldn't need to if missiles weren't overpowered).

Simple as that.

Edited by Khobai, 08 March 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[Kernfeuer]

yashmack, on 07 March 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

ECM isnt just fine.......tweak it

fixed that for you..dont need to thank me

[Ursh]

People who want to play a balanced game, rather than drive the OP flavor of the month, will eventually play and pay less and less.

I mastered an A1 streak/splatapult. How often do I play it? Once every 300 matches or so now, because it's boring.
I mastered a Raven 3L. How often do I play it? I think I ran it once in January sometime, it's a boring mech that requires very little skill to do well in.
I mastered an Atlas DDC, only to find that I'm not particularly great at driving Assaults. Haven't really played with it much in the past two months.

Honestly, I don't know how someone can play a Raven 3L match after match without getting bored. ECM+streaks+broken hitboxes is not particularly enjoyable to me. Then again, I'm not a boring person, while so many people are.

[Ralgas]

Teralitha, on 08 March 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

You mean.... this poll? ---> http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/


Yep. The majority of the players dont like ECM. Its a fact. PGI doesnt care either, The opinion of 1 developer, outweighs the hundreds that disagree.

Funny how quickly they changed their minds about the consumables idea though, and there wasnt even that much feedback about it.

People have been groaning about ECM since the day it was implemented. There is a new topic almost everday, and even sometimes several ECM topics a day complaining about how it ruins the balance of the gameplay.

Yet PGI ignores it all. They probably think they have to have a feature like this to create an endgame skill curve. They look at other games and are copying their model, but they are doing it wrong. They add in an OP feature, and expect the players to find a way to balance it out on their own in the meta. LOL does it, but LOL also nerfs things that are "too" strong all the time.

ECM is too strong. It has created a very narrow minded meta. Its not diverse, its not tactical, its not strategic. Its a very base meta that doesnt take much thought. LOL meta game is very complex, and has considerable diversity. But they also make a provision for players to ban certain champions from ranked play. Its a balancing feature. PGI also needs to make such provision for endgame play. If they dont want to balance ECM, give us the option to ban it from our premade matches. Even previous mechwarrior titles have banning options for any weapons and tech the server owner deemed unfun, or unfair.

PGI may never change ECM, but they need to add provisions for players to decide whether they want such things in their matches. Like a filter. Otherwise a huge chunk of the playerbase will eventually lose interest in playing... and paying.

You mean the poll that was only 50% in negative, and only 1100 voters from a player pool that on a single weekend can consist of 100,000+ players?

Thinking op's sample size is a bit small, but then......... /shades........ they are the 1%

[Shadowsword8]

Xmith, on 07 March 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

That poll still does not represent the majority. Polls mean nothing to me. This would be one boring game if there was a complete counter for everything.

This is horsecrap. A poll IS representative of the majority (minus the degree of inaccuracy associated with sample size). Denying this is like claiming that everyone who did'nt vote approve of ECM, which is behond stupid. It's even denying the democratic system, since presidents are elected on the results of a huge poll.

Most players dislike the current ECM. If you can't even accept that, your reasonning has no objectivity from the start.

[Sorter]

Well, ECM simply g2 be there, It should have higher tonnage or slot cost etc. or even should be available to every single mech (...this would be something interesting to watch actually...), but it should be there.

Without it LRM boats would destroy everything...over specialised "pro's" are the main problem of this game, 1 trick ponies.
But every one knows, that lrm boats/streak/splashcats and gauusapults are piloted by the most skilled of all players.(...and strange its always the catapult with shitloads of missle slots...:>)

If U play a balanced mech with some lasers/ac's + lrm's + srm's/streaks, and got something to cover every possible range, everything is ok. and ecm doesnt make a differance. U just use other weapons and use Youre sight's.

[Ursh]

Shadowsword8, on 08 March 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is horsecrap. A poll IS representative of the majority (minus the degree of inaccuracy associated with sample size). Denying this is like claiming that everyone who did'nt vote approve of ECM, which is behond stupid. It's even denying the democratic system, since presidents are elected on the results of a huge poll.

Most players dislike the current ECM. If you can't even accept that, your reasonning has no objectivity from the start.

Yep, good point.

Voter turnout for presidential elections is around 50-60% of the eligible population, and the winner typically wins around 52% of the popular vote, sometimes less. People will accept leadership that is often determined by less than 25% of the adult population.

Yet they won't admit the significance of over 50% of concerned players voting that ECM diminishes their enjoyment of the game.

"Learn to play. Learn to aim. Focus fire 3Ls." All these comments aren't constructive. You can focus fire any mech. A team shouldn't have to coordinate a strategy for taking out a 35 ton mech though.

Edited by Ursh, 08 March 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Ralgas, on 08 March 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

can consist of 100,000+ players?

where did you get that from? best reliable source on any player base that i know of was the tourney expressing 7000 participants. please enlighten us to your source.

back your claim or ecm still gets the blame, the same the same the same...

edit: yep i know why i never became a rapper.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 08 March 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Ralgas]

Ursh, on 08 March 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Yep, good point.

Voter turnout for presidential elections is around 50-60% of the eligible population, and the winner typically wins around 52% of the popular vote, sometimes less. People will accept leadership that is often determined by less than 25% of the adult population.

Yet they won't admit the significance of over 50% of concerned players voting that ECM diminishes their enjoyment of the game.

"Learn to play. Learn to aim. Focus fire 3Ls." All these comments aren't constructive. You can focus fire any mech. A team shouldn't have to coordinate a strategy for taking out a 35 ton mech though.

Firstly the only actual poll pointed at here was less than .5% in op's favor (and i'll admit it wasn't by the op), not approx 25% as you infer. Show me a better poll that may mean something post the feb netcode patch and i'll concede. As for ravens now it only takes 2, or even 1 mech with an appropriate payload. As stated in my 1st post in this thread a patch or 2 more and we'll be swimming in their tears as they ask for buffs. hitbox fixes +state rewind puts em in the same boat as the rest of the lights, no better than an ecm trollmando or cicada

GalaxyBluestar, on 08 March 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

where did you get that from? best reliable source on any player base that i know of was the tourney expressing 7000 participants. please enlighten us to your source.

back your claim or ecm still gets the blame, the same the same the same...

edit: yep i know why i never became a rapper.

"We saw some excellent BattleMech combat through the course of the weekend, with over 100,000 players joining the 8,026 challenge participants in some epic battles."

http://mwomercs.com/...and-statistics/

Edited by Ralgas, 08 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Cebi]

ECM / LRM / Streak, triangle of bad, is still broken. Have not forgotten.

Come on PGI, stop messing around with consumables when you have bigger fish to fry!

Edited by Cebi, 08 March 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Weiseth006]

I play a mech without ECM and the most boring games I'm in is when the other team is 3-7 boats. Its fine that some people like staying in the back just blasting away missiles, but it is op as it only takes one salvo 3x20 to take out whole systems and cripple you many times. I have 1 ATM and it helps against smaller LRM but the 20LRM is just op, If PGI are going to nerf something then nerf missile boats capacity for stacking just missile weps. Increase the tonnage of the LRM's or the slots they use.

Edited by Weiseth006, 08 March 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[Shadowsword8]

Ralgas, on 08 March 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

Firstly the only actual poll pointed at here was less than .5% in op's favor (and i'll admit it wasn't by the op), not approx 25% as you infer. Show me a better poll that may mean something post the feb netcode patch and i'll concede. As for ravens now it only takes 2, or even 1 mech with an appropriate payload. As stated in my 1st post in this thread a patch or 2 more and we'll be swimming in their tears as they ask for buffs. hitbox fixes +state rewind puts em in the same boat as the rest of the lights, no better than an ecm trollmando or cicada

Why are you limiting your thinking on the Raven when we're speaking about ECM as a whole? You're missing the big picture by a mile.

Fact: Balance in MWO is based on TT battletech numbers, except for tripled rate of fire and doubled armor, and some minor tweaks here and there.

Fact: ECM in-game is a mix of 3 differents TT ECM:
- Guardian ECM: weight 1.5 tons, 2 crits.
- Angel ECM.
- Null-signature system: take 1 crit slot on each mech part except head (7 total), disabled as soon as the mech lose a limb. Generate as much heat as a PPC while active.


If you want to claim ECM is fine, then answer this: why is it only weighting 1.5 tons and taking only 2 slots, without heat generation? When it gives so many advantages?
But you won't be able to answer that, that's the question every pro-ECM player pretend very hard not to see.

[Sifright]

Barushkukor, on 07 March 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

ANGRY MECHWARRIOR IS.......ANGRY!

I have never used ECM and I run LRM's from time to time....I am totally fine with it as it is. It is TACTICAL equipment....same as deciding between an AC10 and an LBX10 is a TACTICAL choice. It certainly makes the game interesting when you're staring down 3 D-DC's!!!

I was almost about to agree with you then I read the AC10 and LBX10 comment and it invalidates anything you
could possibly say ever again.

The LBX 10 is a trash weapon utterly worthless.

ECM is very strong and acts as a hard counter to lrms this undeniable to beat ECM you have to use soft counters with very bad downsides. There is no parity between ECM and it's counters.

personally I'm not that bothered about ECM because I prefer a brawling game, but make no mistake ECM is to strong for it's tonnage.

[Corvus Antaka]

Khobai, on 08 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

The point is LRMs should not hit like a freight train. LRMs should be balanced without ECM. And then there'd be absolutely no reason for ECM to have to counter LRMs.

The whole rock->paper->scissors dynamic of LRMs+ECM is not fun. It's not fun because rock->paper->scissors is not a fun game. Hard counters create scenarios that players can't overcome regardless of how skilled they are. Nobody likes playing games where the enemy mechs hard counter you and there's nothing you can do about it because your team didn't bring certain mechs.

LRMs/Streaks should be useful without being overpowered.
ECM should not hard counter missiles (and wouldn't need to if missiles weren't overpowered).

Simple as that.

I respectfully disagree.

[Psikez]

Shadowsword8, on 08 March 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

This is horsecrap. A poll IS representative of the majority (minus the degree of inaccuracy associated with sample size). Denying this is like claiming that everyone who did'nt vote approve of ECM, which is behond stupid. It's even denying the democratic system, since presidents are elected on the results of a huge poll.

Most players dislike the current ECM. If you can't even accept that, your reasonning has no objectivity from the start.

[Moromillas]

Shadowpunisher, on 07 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

But it's fine YOU WON ! LRMS are now more imbalanced, Streaks are still too powerful against light mechs, ECM rule the game, and you are manipulating us with your Consumables changes surprisingly made in 1 day when it is something that need weeks to balance ...

I thought they made streaks damage different components instead of just hitting the one component most of the time, didn't they?

Also hoping that there's some sort of balance with ECM.

[Tigerchen]

Shadowpunisher, on 07 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

It has been 3 months since ECM has been implemented.

Three months of frustration playing against an obviously OP equipment, requiring NO skill at all to use but a lot of unfunny efforts to counter.

Three months trying to make YOU, PGI, change opinion and balance this equipment.

ECM is not OP. It was hard at the first implementation but with all the the counter options that are available right now, it's fine. If you can't handle a enemy mech with ECM you should think about what you doing wrong.Use the counters, stay with your group or another ECM Mech and it will never be a problem for you again.

Inappropriate1191, on 07 March 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Really, ECM just needs another counter or two, and it'll be just fine. So far, the best counters to it are PPCs, tag, and its inherent fragility. Buff the BAP, AMS, NARC, and Command Console, and it won't be nearly so OP.

ECM has enough counters. There are no more needed. Just use them.

Yoseful Mallad, on 07 March 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

thats the problem... We don't need more counters to ECM. We need ECM to be what it should be. ECM should not stop streaks or LRMs. It should stop you from using Artemis and other advanced electronics. It should not completely cover your signature altogether but instead not allow the enemy to know exactly what mech with ECM is out there. If an ECM equipped mech is not in LOS it should still show up on radar but not give its exact variant and load out information away. ECM should then allow its user to throw out ghost sigs so any LRM mech looking for an easy kill has a harder time targeting and hitting the REAL target. But when you have a system like ECM as PGI has set it up, that needs counter after counter after counter just so it starts to feel like you can play against it... There is a major problem.

+++++

That is one of the best ECM Improvement Posts i have ever seen. Somebody who understand, how ECM should work.

[Ralgas]

Shadowsword8, on 08 March 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Why are you limiting your thinking on the Raven when we're speaking about ECM as a whole? You're missing the big picture by a mile.

Fact: Balance in MWO is based on TT battletech numbers, except for tripled rate of fire and doubled armor, and some minor tweaks here and there.

Fact: ECM in-game is a mix of 3 differents TT ECM:
- Guardian ECM: weight 1.5 tons, 2 crits.
- Angel ECM.
- Null-signature system: take 1 crit slot on each mech part except head (7 total), disabled as soon as the mech lose a limb. Generate as much heat as a PPC while active.


If you want to claim ECM is fine, then answer this: why is it only weighting 1.5 tons and taking only 2 slots, without heat generation? When it gives so many advantages?
But you won't be able to answer that, that's the question every pro-ECM player pretend very hard not to see.

Point comes down to is any game doesn't balance well as soon as they give us the levels of customization we have. Tbh the whole ecm/lrm/streak synergy, given only certain chassis can mount them is fine.

I argue ecm does not hard counter a lrm build as long as it's done properly (tag/artemis as well as the lrm'er having some defensive weps). Then it comes down to the player actually having to work for a kill rather than waiting for a target and spamming a button

streaks are strong, but the bigger maps as well as the game evolution vs lights (and you cant tell me a lot of the hate is not due against both streaks and ecm is not due in a large part to the 3L and 2D ) is bringing them into line.

On top of that you have to consider programming issues with making it work as well as server load tracking them if they got split, which a ton of people tend to forget about when making these suggestions.

Now you don't have to see it my way, that's fine. But i still challenge you to produce these numbers that show the majority of the community is with you and your thoughts, in the context of the changes i talked about above (post netcode fix, wont ask post state rewind cause that's too short a time frame to get a true reaction imo) when the only ones forwarded so far say otherwise and instead divided roughly 50/50 on the issue