68 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

It's more of a preditiction of things to come. You can name the biggest damage build around and I will come up with a Clan alternative that has less weaknesses and 2x the damage. 3xUAC/20, for instance, which is 120 points of pin-point damage.

When the clans come out (and keep in mind we have no idea exactly how they are going to do this), but when they come out, IS mechs are supposed to get pounded to scrap for a while. IMO, they should include clans during the invasion restart after the election of the new ilkahn. To do so before would interfere with the lore in the books.....

Some theories out there include:
1) Yes, they are coming and yes, we are going to get out collective butts kicked.
2) They will come out, but due to clan superiority and organization, they'll drop vs IS 5v8 or 10v12.

[John Clavell]

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 04:24 AM, said:

It's more of a preditiction of things to come. You can name the biggest damage build around and I will come up with a Clan alternative that has less weaknesses and 2x the damage. 3xUAC/20, for instance, which is 120 points of pin-point damage.

PGI has to think outside of the box in order to balance for the Clans. Because otherwise, we end up back with a silly arms race to get to Clan Tech, with little or no reason to bring Inner Sphere tech. These changes dramatically effect the game across the board. Battletech aside, the importance is to balance interplay between both Inner Sphere and Clan tech for a richer game.

[Adridos]

cdlord, on 10 March 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

Some theories out there include:
1) Yes, they are coming and yes, we are going to get out collective butts kicked.
2) They will come out, but due to clan superiority and organization, they'll drop vs IS 5v8 or 10v12.

I don' think it would matter that much to them, since after the initial shot is fired, it would be 5v3 against anything but fully armored Atlas, which would be in red.

And that super damage doesn't coem in snail speed, unarmored and undersinked mechs. We're talking about fully viable mechs.

John Clavell, on 10 March 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

PGI has to think outside of the box in order to balance for the Clans. Because otherwise, we end up back with a silly arms race to get to Clan Tech, with little or no reason to bring Inner Sphere tech. These changes dramatically effect the game across the board. Battletech aside, the importance is to balance interplay between both Inner Sphere and Clan tech for a richer game.

Yeah, something has to be done, but first, they have to at least balance IS tech, since even that is broken right now. How can they balance Clan weaponry when they don't even have a solid ground for what they are going to face against?

Edited by Adridos, 10 March 2013 - 04:41 AM.

[DanielZX]

The problem is not only in convergence but in precision aiming AND ability to keep weapon firing on boat mechs several times. If you would be able to make only one single shot from 4xppc before turning off you will you will think twice. So in my opinions we need adjust heat containment level for every mech ( decrease it drasticly,), increase passive heat generation while running full speed to 15-20%+, and increase cooldown effect from heatsinks. You wont be able to fire 3+ppc at one time, but you would be able to chain-fire longer, it will increase survivability under fire and you will need more skill for sniping. Also other way to solve problem of boat-builds is to add level of power output from the reactor, just for example 80 tonns awesome's reactor would be able to ignite instantly only 2 ppc, imagine -lets make power output from reactor 20 and to fire 1 ppc you will need 10 power, so you can use only 2 of them in 1 moment, for sure you can mount 3 or 4 or even more but in one time you will be able to fire just from 2ppcs,

[CDLord HHGD]

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I don' think it would matter that much to them, since after the initial shot is fired, it would be 5v3 against anything but fully armored Atlas, which would be in red.

And that super damage doesn't coem in snail speed, unarmored and undersinked mechs. We're talking about fully viable mechs.

It's a puzzle for PGI to be sure. Unfortunately with the coms blackout from them, we have only our speculations to go off of.

Zin, on 10 March 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

The problem is not only in convergence but in precision aiming AND ability to keep weapon firing on boat mechs several times. If you would be able to make only one single shot from 4xppc before turning off you will you will think twice. So in my opinions we need adjust heat containment level for every mech ( decrease it drasticly,), increase passive heat generation while running full speed to 15-20%+, and increase cooldown effect from heatsinks. You wont be able to fire 3+ppc at one time, but you would be able to chain-fire longer, it will increase survivability under fire and you will need more skill for sniping. Also other way to solve problem of boat-builds is to add level of power output from the reactor, just for example 80 tonns awesome's reactor would be able to ignite instantly only 2 ppc, imagine -lets make power output from reactor 20 and to fire 1 ppc you will need 10 power, so you can use only 2 of them in 1 moment, for sure you can mount 3 or 4 or even more but in one time you will be able to fire just from 2ppcs,

Here's a thought. Lets take it back to TT! No matter where you aim, the hit location is random with the only sure thing being front or back. Use the same ratio's in TT for hit location and done!

[Elessar]

cdlord, on 10 March 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

When the clans come out (and keep in mind we have no idea exactly how they are going to do this), but when they come out, IS mechs are supposed to get pounded to scrap for a while. IMO, they should include clans during the invasion restart after the election of the new ilkahn. To do so before would interfere with the lore in the books.....

Some theories out there include:
1) Yes, they are coming and yes, we are going to get out collective butts kicked.
2) They will come out, but due to clan superiority and organization, they'll drop vs IS 5v8 or 10v12.

Considering the fact that the clans always give the bid to the commander who wants to take the objective with the smallest force possible, I assume that (2) is the most probable possibility

[DanielZX]

Cdlord, check my previous post:
"Malora Siderwind +1, no need to make random hit mechanics - it will eliminate competitive part of gameplay and difference between ppl who are trying to shoot directly or just firing in enemies direction, also random hit mechanics will give chance of "golden bullet" shots. Right now balance between weapons and armor is fine".

[CDLord HHGD]

Zin, on 10 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Cdlord, check my previous post:
"Malora Siderwind +1, no need to make random hit mechanics - it will eliminate competitive part of gameplay and difference between ppl who are trying to shoot directly or just firing in enemies direction, also random hit mechanics will give chance of "golden bullet" shots. Right now balance between weapons and armor is fine".

I was being a smartass

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Zin, on 10 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Cdlord, check my previous post:
"Malora Siderwind +1, no need to make random hit mechanics - it will eliminate competitive part of gameplay and difference between ppl who are trying to shoot directly or just firing in enemies direction, also random hit mechanics will give chance of "golden bullet" shots. Right now balance between weapons and armor is fine".

Right now balance between weapons and armor is fine.
It is unless you boat 4+ high dmg weapons like PPCs,GRs,LRMs,SRMs

[Peiper]

Zin, on 10 March 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

The problem is not only in convergence but in precision aiming AND ability to keep weapon firing on boat mechs several times. If you would be able to make only one single shot from 4xppc before turning off you will you will think twice. So in my opinions we need adjust heat containment level for every mech ( decrease it drasticly,), increase passive heat generation while running full speed to 15-20%+, and increase cooldown effect from heatsinks. You wont be able to fire 3+ppc at one time, but you would be able to chain-fire longer, it will increase survivability under fire and you will need more skill for sniping. Also other way to solve problem of boat-builds is to add level of power output from the reactor, just for example 80 tonns awesome's reactor would be able to ignite instantly only 2 ppc, imagine -lets make power output from reactor 20 and to fire 1 ppc you will need 10 power, so you can use only 2 of them in 1 moment, for sure you can mount 3 or 4 or even more but in one time you will be able to fire just from 2ppcs,

This is a really interesting idea and deserves note.

_______________________

Regarding the inner sphere vs. clan imbalance: Clan mechs die just as easily as inner sphere mechs. The difference between Clan and Inner Sphere is firepower. Clan mechs can pack more weapons and heat sinks than inner sphere mechs, and their engines, heat sinks, and armor are smaller/lighter. BUT, they still have the same max number of armor points on them. Sure, it might take 2 inner sphere mechs to take out one clan mech, but that's only because the clanner has to kill one before he gets to the other, and in doing so, exposes him/herself to the combined fire of both. He might be able to take down one, but the other will be pummeling him the entire time. A splatcat as it is can kill an clan or inner sphere mech with the same ease - if the Clan pilot is stupid enough to let it get close enough.

[Angus McBeef]

We don't have low armor.

[HRR Insanity]

Double, tripling, or quadrupling armor will not help the game balance.

Weapon balance is currently screwed up because all weapons hit the same point (pinpoint convergence).

There is a fix for this.

[Bishop Steiner]

KingCobra, on 09 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I agree the mechs are like butter and 3-5 minute matches are a joke but you have to remember the DEVS are the old NHUA=NO HEAT UNLIMITED AMMO players that like one shot kills and mechs that melt in a few seconds.Its more like playing Planetside2 than mechwarrior.

yes... they like it so much they already doubled the armor from ANY other MW title or the TT. Saying this doesn't play like MW because we still die to fast indicates you really don't know what you are talking about. And NHUA? Seriously? THis is the most heat addled version of MW ever released, and the added ammo had to be made as a concesion to the already doubled armor, because if you try to carry "stock" ammo supplies, you run out before killing a single mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

10 Turn TT game that took hours to play was 100 SECONDS of combat. That's right, it was less than 2 minutes of combat!

[KingCobra]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

yes... they like it so much they already doubled the armor from ANY other MW title or the TT. Saying this doesn't play like MW because we still die to fast indicates you really don't know what you are talking about. And NHUA? Seriously? THis is the most heat addled version of MW ever released, and the added ammo had to be made as a concesion to the already doubled armor, because if you try to carry "stock" ammo supplies, you run out before killing a single mech.

Like i have stated before we have tested the armor on all mechs shot for shot the dammage now compared to a year ago has doubled DPS and the armor remained at its first values.In fact you keep saying they doubled the code for the armor to take 2x the dammage? lets see the line of code? what they did was adjust the visual count of the armor not the actual ingame difference of the armor.

Edited by KingCobra, 10 March 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[Valsalva]

Grayseven, on 10 March 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

Heat needs to affect aim and convergence, just as it did in the TT game and the single player games.

Heat is the great equalizer and until this game uses heat effects as it should we will see balance issues.

If high heat were to affect convergence we would see either more damage spread from high heat builds or less shots over time from those same builds.

In addition, if heat had an effect on the HUD such as fade, flicker and outright loss at certain levels, the shots coming from mechs would not be so accurate when they ran hot. I've already experienced bugs where I completely lost my HUD and cross-hair as well as the ability to tell the difference between friend and foe and fighting under those conditions is next to impossible.

Speed loss due to heat also needs to be in effect. I'd also like to see engine hits causing heat increases instead of being outright destruction, with each engine hit having an increased chance of loss of fusion containment resulting in destruction.

If ammo explosions don't cause heat build up, they should. It would make splatcat builds a little like driving a bomb just waiting to start cooking off ammo in a chain reaction that could destroy the whole mech. You'd see more thought put into builds that just "how much damage can I do in a single salvo?".

Increasing armor isn't the answer. Putting in real penalties for heat would go much farther towards balance.

I really like these ideas. I think heat should do more than just make you shut down after a certain point. Losing your hud even for a sec or two would be terrifying lol

[Ranek Blackstone]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 March 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

10 Turn TT game that took hours to play was 100 SECONDS of combat. That's right, it was less than 2 minutes of combat!

Which is, oddly enough, pretty much right where we are now in terms of average match length once the shooting starts.

As for durability, as long as I don't do anything stupid my XL powered Cataphract will see the end of a match despite his large side torsos and that shotgun I mount in my hip.

Edited by Ranek Blackstone, 10 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Weapon balance is currently screwed up because all weapons hit the same point (pinpoint convergence).

Adding RNG to the game is a terrible solution. It replaces skillful aiming with luck. No thanks.

There are better ways to increase mech survivability in MWO.

IMO aiming should be allowed. But the max armor should be altered based on how often locations get hit in MWO rather than being based on how often locations get hit in TT.


In tabletop, an Atlas having 62 center torso armor is based on its center torso only getting hitting 20% of the time.

In mechwarrior online, an Atlas gets hit in the center torso more like 60%-80% of the time I'd say. So the max center torso armor should be increased significantly.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[HRR Insanity]

Khobai, on 10 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Adding RNG to the game is a terrible solution. It replaces skillful aiming with luck. No thanks.

There are better ways to increase mech survivability in MWO.

IMO aiming should be allowed. But the max armor should be altered based on how often locations get hit in MWO rather than being based on how often locations get hit in TT.


In tabletop, an Atlas having 62 center torso armor is based on its center torso only getting hitting 20% of the time.

In mechwarrior online, an Atlas gets hit in the center torso more like 60%-80% of the time I'd say. So the max center torso armor should be increased significantly.

Did you even read the linked post?

In the proposal, individual weapons can be aimed with perfect accuracy.

Read the proposal.

PS: Manipulating the level of armor in a given location will only make people more likely to shoot other things intentionally. That's another game of 'increase the armor' wack-a-mole which will lead nowhere.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 10 March 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In the proposal, individual weapons can be aimed with perfect accuracy.

Bundled weapons should be able to fire with perfect accuracy too. Any RNG is bad for the game. Period.