32 replies to this topic

[Ravennus]

EDIT: Added poll, as suggested.

Hey All,

I've been pondering the new system of 'quirks' lately and how PGI is trying to make each chassis and variant unique with special little boosts and penalties.

One of my favourite chassis is the Hunchback, and with so many other Medium mechs getting quirks I was wondering what the Hunchback should get.
Especially since the Cicada, Trebuchet and even Centurion seem focused more on speed and maneuverability, how can we make the Hunchback stand out among the ever growing crowd of medium mechs?


Sure, the Hunchback is already one of the better balanced mechs in the game.
It can still go decently fast, but it's now the slowest medium mech.
It has great torso twist (which I think it should definitely keep) and great lateral movement in the arms, which are already kind of a trademark.


But when I think of the Hunchback, I think of a scrapper and brawler.
Not a toe-to-toe brawler like the Atlas obviously, but still a scrappy little mech that isn't afraid to run into the thick of things and unleash hell.
A mech that is at home on the front line supporting heavier mechs and being an excellent flanking buddy.


That said, here is my suggestion for a Hunchback quirk. A higher armor cap.

Other mediums have speed and maneuverability; we don't want to copy that with the HBKs.
We want to give it a little boost in it's preferred role on the front lines, but without making it too overpowering.

Upping the cap on armor would be a great way to do this.
Obviously not to the level of an Assault mech, but perhaps closer to a Heavy like the Dragon.
Add another 50 or so points to the various locations on the mech, and it would give it just a little more staying power while supporting its bigger pals.

This wouldn't be for free obviously.
Good HBK builds are already really tight. A player would still need to free up a ton or two elsewhere to fit in the extra armor, but that is no different than what a lot of Centurion players have done in order to fit in the higher 275 engine.

The additional armor also wouldn't have to be evenly spread across the board.
Well, perhaps an even spread would work on a 4SP... but the other variants could use a little boost to those vulnerable hunches. Having a higher armor cap on the RT could really help.


Otherwise, IMHO the Hunchback is in a good place, and I'm sure many others would agree.
The weakest link is the 4G, which is common wisdom around these parts. The 4H just does the big single ballistic thing better, and with more laser backup.
I'm not sure if PGI has ever thought about it, but perhaps a minor weight discount on ballistics on the 4G to make multiple ballistics more viable? I'm not sure.


But TL;DR - To make the Hunchback more unique in a slower tougher front-line medium role, give the chassis a bit of an armor boost to help it survive longer. Maybe even a bigger boost to the RT hunch armor, specifically.
Getting close to the lighter Heavy mech armor caps, like the Dragon, seems fair.
Everything else is already great.... 260 max engine, 120 torso twist, good arm movement (with poor vertical reach).

As a negative, perhaps give it slight deceleration penalty. Once this little scrapper starts moving, it's tough to slow down.


Let me know what you think!

Edited by Ravennus, 11 March 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[Monky]

Ultimately, the hunchback doesn't need it. It's a fun mech to play that has specific achilles heels, but it teaches you to protect them and to manage the flow of a fight rather than just rush in headlong. I mastered the 4G, 4P, and 4SP variants, all using slow engine and full armor, had a blast and did well due to tactics. You're a middleweight slow support mech, if you play like that you will go far.

[Gremlich Johns]

Monky, on 10 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Ultimately, the hunchback doesn't need it. It's a fun mech to play that has specific achilles heels, but it teaches you to protect them and to manage the flow of a fight rather than just rush in headlong. I mastered the 4G, 4P, and 4SP variants, all using slow engine and full armor, had a blast and did well due to tactics. You're a middleweight slow support mech, if you play like that you will go far.

I agree, I have the same variants and really like how I can use them and still be successful despite the love being shown the Cent, cicada and trashbucket

[FrostCollar]

I think that the game would benefit from giving specific mechs the ability to mount more or less armor than their weight class. It would further differentiate mechs, especially those at similar weight classes.

However, does the Hunchback need it? As others have said, it's tough to find extra space in a good Hunchback build already.

[Ravennus]

What you both say is true, but PGI has demonstrated that they want to distinguish the various mech chassis with 'quirks'.

I love my Hunchbacks dearly. They are among my favourite mechs to play, if not my absolute favourite.
However, they are currently at a speed disadvantage to every other medium mech.

For something as light as a medium mech, speed is life.
After extensive experience mastering almost all the Hunchback variants, along with a significant amount of time spent in the Battlemechs subforum discussing builds and helping other people with their HBKs... I can confidently say that the 250 engine is the minimum I would recommend.

Going slower than that not only leaves you vulnerable, but you get a lot less heat efficiency out of the deal (due to 2x in-engine DHS).
Also, I don't see the point of going 60-70kph when Heavies and even Assault mechs can easily pull that off, with a LOT more armor and firepower.


This is what got me thinking about the inevitable quirks for the Hunchback.
I don't think it needs a speed boost, as other medium mechs already have that locked down.
It is already plenty maneuverable with excellent torso twist range and lateral arm movement (with crappier vertical movement to compensate).

So that made me think that adding to the armor cap might be a great quirk to add.
You still don't need to take advantage of it, and as I already said.... many HBK builds are tight.
But it certainly wouldn't be a bad way to give the Hunchback a little boost, especially since most of them are played up close and personal anyway.

[Ravennus]

FrostCollar, on 10 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

I think that the game would benefit from giving specific mechs the ability to mount more or less armor than their weight class. It would further differentiate mechs, especially those at similar weight classes.

However, does the Hunchback need it? As others have said, it's tough to find extra space in a good Hunchback build already.

The same could be said of those tight Centurion builds, yet many people have managed to make room for the upgraded 275 engine and love it.

Pound for pound, you a get nice chunk of armor for the tonnage.
Even without Ferro, you get about 32 points of armor for 1 ton.
Also remember that it's possible to shave a few extra points off the legs, if you can then shift those to other more vulnerable areas of the mech (like the Hunch!!).


For my builds, I likely won't change my AC20 4H build. It's way too tight as is.
My 4SP build could possibly sacrifice a DHS for an extra ton of armor, and a few points off the legs.
My 4P build would likely benefit the most. At the moment, I am using 2 MPLAS in the arms due to a lot of free tonnage.
I could downgrade to regular MLAS and even up the engine to 260, and still fit in an extra ton of armor.

Edited by Ravennus, 10 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

I agree with this. IE how about 25% more armour on the HUNCH? If an AC/20 can fit there, and an AC20 can fit on a trebuchet thats way tinier, well, if you look at the hunch it even looks like it is extra armoured.

I once suggested this as a module, perhaps as a mech feature this would be more unique.

Good post, +1

[Adridos]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 March 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

I agree with this. IE how about 25% more armour on the HUNCH? If an AC/20 can fit there, and an AC20 can fit on a trebuchet thats way tinier, well, if you look at the hunch it even looks like it is extra armoured.

It doesn't fit into a Trebuchet.

Yes, it sucks to have a quirk made useless by mechlab, but I don't think simply adding armor is the answer.

[Ravennus]

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

It doesn't fit into a Trebuchet.

Yes, it sucks to have a quirk made useless by mechlab, but I don't think simply adding armor is the answer.

The TBT-7K can easily fit an AC20, so long as you use a standard engine.

I'm not sure what you mean about the "quirk made useless in mechlab" comment though.

[Corvus Antaka]

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

It doesn't fit into a Trebuchet.

Yes, it sucks to have a quirk made useless by mechlab, but I don't think simply adding armor is the answer.

Fits just fine in my trebuchet...

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 10 March 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Ezazel]

I too think that HBK is a great fun little mech and as other mediums have lately gotten boosts HBK has become somewhat weak in comparison. You don't see that many hunchies in the field anymore while trebuchets and X-5s are everywhere. And Centurion A9 is now considered the king of mediums instead of HBK SP.

This suggestion to give hunchback more armor would be one way of giving that little extra oomph that is needed. Personally i think that engine cap of 275 might be better. I think mediums should be potentially faster than any assaults and the fastest assault Pretty Baby can go roughly 90 kph. So giving HBK the potential max speed of ~100 kph would be reasonable thing to do, especially now that lag shields are mostly gone.

[Raso]

I think it;s a possibility to consider. The values would have to be carefully chosen, of course, but it could work. As you said it wouldn't be free, you'd have to find room for it so it's not like suddenly all Hunchbacks will be unstoppable brick walls.

[Mattiator]

I do think the Hunchback should have quirks other than the usual 'higher engine speed, better arm aim' that most of the mediums have, but I don't think armor is the way to do it, since giving Hunchbacks higher armor would put them on par with heavy 'mechs for survivability. The following are just a few little ideas I had to make them a wee bit more viable. The names are just for fun (since none of the quirks have names so far), and you could very easily switch which mechs got which quirk.

HBK-4P - POWER COOLER: Provides cooling above and beyond the standard heat-sinks
HBK-4G - RAPID LOADER: Reduces cooldown time for weapons in the 'gun hunch' (except Machine Guns)
HBK-4H - ARMORED WEAPONS: Increases the HP of weapons mounted in the 'gun hunch'
HBK-4SP - ARM AIM+: Increases the arm aiming radius
HBK-4J - EAGLE EYE: Reduces lock-on time for missile weapons mounted on this 'mech

Edited by Mattiator, 11 March 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Frank the Tank]

Mattiator, on 11 March 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I do think the Hunchback should have quirks other than the usual 'higher engine speed, better arm aim' that most of the mediums have, but I don't think armor is the way to do it, since giving Hunchbacks higher armor would put them on par with heavy 'mechs for survivability. The following are just a few little ideas I had to make them a wee bit more viable. The names are just for fun (since none of the quirks have names so far), and you could very easily switch which mechs got which quirk.

HBK-4P - POWER COOLER: Provides cooling above and beyond the standard heat-sinks
HBK-4G - RAPID LOADER: Reduces cooldown time for weapons in the 'gun hunch' (except Machine Guns)
HBK-4H - ARMORED WEAPONS: Increases the HP of weapons mounted in the 'gun hunch'
HBK-4SP - ARM AIM+: Increases the arm aiming radius
HBK-4J - EAGLE EYE: Reduces lock-on time for missile weapons mounted on this 'mech

I'd be down if they replaced some of the basic 8 experience unlock for these kinds of mods on all mechs. Some mechs just don't need the "arm reflex" unlock so why not replace it with some thing unique. For example, on a catapult drop "arm reflex" for a "faster lock-on." Maybe hunchbacks would lose "hard brake," but gain one of these unique unlocks.

[Corvus Antaka]

I'm not so fond of increasing the hunches speed. it is traditionally a slower medium, and it has extreme torso twist to excel as a brawler already. If PGI can add stuff like bonus armour to differentiate chassis and give consideration for weird btech designs that never factors "that hunch is gonna hurt me when I roll the dice", it would be very cool indeed.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I would like to see some armor changes as well, I have been toying with the idea that a Hunchback would have less armor on it's arms than a Centurion would (they are what? 1/2? 1/3 the size?) but it would probably also have more armor on the hunch.

The best I have come up with though is tweaking it - same total amor cap, but the specific parts are variated
I.e. the Centurion's shield arm gets more armor (there is a shield there for Pete's sake!) but somewhere else gets less
The Huch gets more armor ON the hunch, but the arms get less.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Ravennus, on 10 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Hey All,

I've been pondering the new system of 'quirks' lately and how PGI is trying to make each chassis and variant unique with special little boosts and penalties.

One of my favourite chassis is the Hunchback, and with so many other Medium mechs getting quirks I was wondering what the Hunchback should get.
Especially since the Cicada, Trebuchet and even Centurion seem focused more on speed and maneuverability, how can we make the Hunchback stand out among the ever growing crowd of medium mechs?


Sure, the Hunchback is already one of the better balanced mechs in the game.
It can still go decently fast, but it's now the slowest medium mech.
It has great torso twist (which I think it should definitely keep) and great lateral movement in the arms, which are already kind of a trademark.


But when I think of the Hunchback, I think of a scrapper and brawler.
Not a toe-to-toe brawler like the Atlas obviously, but still a scrappy little mech that isn't afraid to run into the thick of things and unleash hell.
A mech that is at home on the front line supporting heavier mechs and being an excellent flanking buddy.


That said, here is my suggestion for a Hunchback quirk. A higher armor cap.

Other mediums have speed and maneuverability; we don't want to copy that with the HBKs.
We want to give it a little boost in it's preferred role on the front lines, but without making it too overpowering.

Upping the cap on armor would be a great way to do this.
Obviously not to the level of an Assault mech, but perhaps closer to a Heavy like the Dragon.
Add another 50 or so points to the various locations on the mech, and it would give it just a little more staying power while supporting its bigger pals.

This wouldn't be for free obviously.
Good HBK builds are already really tight. A player would still need to free up a ton or two elsewhere to fit in the extra armor, but that is no different than what a lot of Centurion players have done in order to fit in the higher 275 engine.

The additional armor also wouldn't have to be evenly spread across the board.
Well, perhaps an even spread would work on a 4SP... but the other variants could use a little boost to those vulnerable hunches. Having a higher armor cap on the RT could really help.


Otherwise, IMHO the Hunchback is in a good place, and I'm sure many others would agree.
The weakest link is the 4G, which is common wisdom around these parts. The 4H just does the big single ballistic thing better, and with more laser backup.
I'm not sure if PGI has ever thought about it, but perhaps a minor weight discount on ballistics on the 4G to make multiple ballistics more viable? I'm not sure.


But TL;DR - To make the Hunchback more unique in a slower tougher front-line medium role, give the chassis a bit of an armor boost to help it survive longer. Maybe even a bigger boost to the RT hunch armor, specifically.
Getting close to the lighter Heavy mech armor caps, like the Dragon, seems fair.
Everything else is already great.... 260 max engine, 120 torso twist, good arm movement (with poor vertical reach).

As a negative, perhaps give it slight deceleration penalty. Once this little scrapper starts moving, it's tough to slow down.


Let me know what you think!

You need to add a poll dude.
Incidentally, I'd vote yes. (Also, I just realized I have a 240 engine in my SP -- I forgot that engine DHS are better; I need to check what it would be if I took out a regular DHS to upgrade to a 250 engine)

[Fenris Krinkovich]

I say leave the overall armor cap the same, but let us put more armor on the RT. Not enough to make it invulnerable, just to make it a bit more forgiving; say a half-ton more spread across front and back. It's no fun having 75% or more of your firepower one-shotted early in the match. I don't think any other mech has that kind of vulnerability, and I don't think hbk's are particularly OP as-is.

[Saxophonist]

I agree with this, but only if the extra armor is placed on the side torso with the big weapon in it, or the "Hunch". It's way too easy to get that thing blown off. In TT, this wasn't a problem, because where the enemy's weapon hit was determined by a dice roll. However, in a video, game, one can easily aim at this gigantic box, and destroy it. The same should be done to the Centurion's right arm.

[Ravennus]

Spirit of the Wolf, on 11 March 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

You need to add a poll dude.
Incidentally, I'd vote yes. (Also, I just realized I have a 240 engine in my SP -- I forgot that engine DHS are better; I need to check what it would be if I took out a regular DHS to upgrade to a 250 engine)

Good idea! Done and done.