390 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

I think a problem with the "napkin" math is that we don't have the full story there. The AC/2 supposedly fires every 0.5 seconds, but players report it doesn't. So there is something altering the values we see in the game files or are now described even in the mech lab. Also I am not sure we actually have exact values for Jam probability and Jam duration.

[Mr 144]

MustrumRidcully, on 16 March 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

I think a problem with the "napkin" math is that we don't have the full story there. The AC/2 supposedly fires every 0.5 seconds, but players report it doesn't. So there is something altering the values we see in the game files or are now described even in the mech lab. Also I am not sure we actually have exact values for Jam probability and Jam duration.

I agree, which is why we did in-game testing of the two most common Dakka Builds faced off at 100 paces We were testing the mech builds themselves, but we can extrapolate some data.

Testing shows:
2xAC5 > UAC5+3xML every single time in-game tested
so...this is not entirely accurate, but we can get a best guess range from this
ML = 1.25 DPS
AC5 = 2.94
Both figures relatively predictable
So 5.88 DPS for the 2xAC5
Total DPS for the UAC5+3xML must be less than 5.88, so...
5.88 - 3.75 = 2.13
Never in any test did the Ilya win out against the 4X build, so at most...in actual gameplay, the UAC5 only puts out less than 2.13 DPS over a sustained 100 point damage CT coring spam contest....dissapointing ain't it?

Now ya know factors such as managing jams with re-positioning, luck of the spam, burst damage, etc. are all mitigating factors in build choice, but inherently, the AC/5 is a superior DPS 'Dakka' weapon...sure don't feel like it though.

Mr 144

Edit: sorry for the De-Railing Homeless Bill

Edited by Mr 144, 16 March 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[Commander Kobold]

it'd be better it the U/ACs just did the little double shot trick that they're supposed to have instead of being AC machineguns
I don't like using un implemented things to enforce my point but don't the clans have U/AC20...those things are going to melt atlai...ATLAI

[MustrumRidcully]

Mr 144, on 16 March 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I agree, which is why we did in-game testing of the two most common Dakka Builds faced off at 100 paces We were testing the mech builds themselves, but we can extrapolate some data.

Testing shows:
2xAC5 > UAC5+3xML every single time in-game tested
so...this is not entirely accurate, but we can get a best guess range from this
ML = 1.25 DPS
AC5 = 2.94
Both figures relatively predictable
So 5.88 DPS for the 2xAC5
Total DPS for the UAC5+3xML must be less than 5.88, so...
5.88 - 3.75 = 2.13
Never in any test did the Ilya win out against the 4X build, so at most...in actual gameplay, the UAC5 only puts out less than 2.13 DPS over a sustained 100 point damage CT coring spam contest....dissapointing ain't it?

Now ya know factors such as managing jams with re-positioning, luck of the spam, burst damage, etc. are all mitigating factors in build choice, but inherently, the AC/5 is a superior DPS 'Dakka' weapon...sure don't feel like it though.

Mr 144

Edit: sorry for the De-Railing Homeless Bill

Interesting. Maybe should rework my damage efficiency charts with your findings...
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2067816

I remember that Vapor Trail once suggested a jam rate of 25 % and an average jam duration of 8 seconds, and when I used that figure, the UAC in double shot mode was definitely less effective than without it, but I don't remember how it stacked up against the AC/5.

[Op4blushift]

One Medic Army, on 14 March 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

What the heck was he doing with the extra weight?
Seriously, I ran 6smalls, 1medium, and 2 larges on my P, with a 245std engine and plenty of heatsinks.
The only think I can imagine is if he had a large standard engine, and a large number of STD heatsinks, but even then he should have had mediums on the arms...

I've used the 9SL hunchback a few times, and I always run either a 255 or 260 on my 4p. You do have a ton left over after you've filled every space possible with DHS, I usually just add a bit of armour to the leg and leave it at how ever much tonnage is left. Pretty effective build although its completely useless at anything but brawling. Personally I find 7SL and 2 ML works better.

[Calamus]

LRM Stalker with LRM15+Art...

and 0 ammo.

The dude forgot to reload the ammo when he added Artemis.

[JokerVictor]

A Raven 3L - With a LL, TAG, and an LRM10... and no ECM.

[LeMans]

Moromillas, on 12 March 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

The "90 missiles" build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44ccac4e5fc9e3d

I saw an A1 built similarly, but he had Zero (!) armor on the entire chassis, he was very fast though, he was good at running away but I eventually caught up to him and downed him.

[BattleGnome]

Mr 144, on 16 March 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I agree, which is why we did in-game testing of the two most common Dakka Builds faced off at 100 paces We were testing the mech builds themselves, but we can extrapolate some data.

Testing shows:
2xAC5 > UAC5+3xML every single time in-game tested
so...this is not entirely accurate, but we can get a best guess range from this
ML = 1.25 DPS
AC5 = 2.94
Both figures relatively predictable
So 5.88 DPS for the 2xAC5
Total DPS for the UAC5+3xML must be less than 5.88, so...
5.88 - 3.75 = 2.13
Never in any test did the Ilya win out against the 4X build, so at most...in actual gameplay, the UAC5 only puts out less than 2.13 DPS over a sustained 100 point damage CT coring spam contest....dissapointing ain't it?

Now ya know factors such as managing jams with re-positioning, luck of the spam, burst damage, etc. are all mitigating factors in build choice, but inherently, the AC/5 is a superior DPS 'Dakka' weapon...sure don't feel like it though.

Mr 144

Edit: sorry for the De-Railing Homeless Bill

Wait... doesn't this prove that the AC5 is only superior to the UAC5... when it gets help from 2 UAC5s?

In all fairness though, I guess this does prove that there are exceptions to the rule in regards to, "All AC5 builds suck!"

[Moromillas]

LeMans, on 16 March 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I saw an A1 built similarly, but he had Zero (!) armor on the entire chassis, he was very fast though, he was good at running away but I eventually caught up to him and downed him.

Yeah, there's really no point to running around in a heavy with less armor than a light.

[MrPils]

Treb 5N with 3 LPL in the arm, a 255xl and nothing else. Seriously?

[Targetloc]

STK-5N

2 ERPCC
2 SRM6 + Artemis
2 TAG

[MustrumRidcully]

Targetloc, on 17 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

STK-5N

2 ERPCC
2 SRM6 + Artemis
2 TAG

Symmetry must be preserved.

[Phoenix Gray]

Yammato, on 11 March 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

i droped once in my x2 lbx-10 catapult forgot to equip my 4 ml and no ammo. The worst part is i ended up be one of the last ones left. I guess every one was laughing to hard or just wached with pitty as i scampered by.

Just remember, the Cat chassis is optimized for charge and kicking attacks...oh, wait...

Roburn Bliss, on 12 March 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

I know on paper it should be quite poor, but, 7 deaths and 42 kills with that build would disagree with you. It MELTS centre torso's.

Check out the "Salad Cutter" youtube vids. Everyone ignores the LBX 10 shooter even as he's killing them. Think about it...

[Phoenix Gray]

Dead Eye 01, on 11 March 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f1928dfb6f6b230
and
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...16f1301be14a4d6

Don't drink and design.

[KEMikos]

Had a Stalker on the opposing team yesterday.He was the last one alive (because he never left the vicinity of the drop point - on Alpine). The opposing team were calling "AFK at the base" on all chat - one of our guys said "No, he's not AFK..."

Next drop he ended up on my side, I ended up spectating him. 3 LRM20, 2 LRM15. Maybe Artemis, but nothing else. Max speed 19.9 KPH. He never fired a shot, never got further than 500M from the base.

Dude, I think you might be looking for www.turretwarrioronline.com...

Edited by KEMikos, 17 March 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Any light Mech rolling with 1 PPC and nothing else.

[HlynkaCG]

Merchant, on 17 March 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Any light Mech rolling with 1 PPC and nothing else.

If you're running a spider with ECM and JJs that's not necessarily a bad build. Got a guy on my team who runs one and he does pretty well for himself as a sneaky little point capping, ECM sniping, PITA.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 17 March 2013 - 07:56 PM.

[RLBell]

GalaxyBluestar, on 11 March 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

so long as training grounds doesn't match the latency and has an enemy that stands still it is no true test of a good build, just target practice and heat /ammo management. effecient at fighting is a different story...

The best uses of the training grounds are trying to find the head hit box and setting up the weapons grouping

[Ravingdork]

I'm a little ashamed to say that my first custom mech in MWO was a Spider SDR-5K with four machine guns and a small laser as backup. This was before they got their crit upgrade what's more. I was attempting to recapture the golden days of older PC Mechwarrior games where there were no hard points and I could put 16+ machine guns on a single mech and tear through enemies at short range like they were made of tissue paper.

Needless to say it didn't work out very well. It wasn't even a 1/4 as powerful as it used to be. The four together weren't even as powerful as my small laser.

I have since discovered the MWO wiki and have built far better builds based on the numbers therein.

Sifright, on 12 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

What is this? I proved this wrong earlier.

25% more heat for 50% more damage SRM4 vs SRM6

The only thing you've proved is that SRM6s have a better heat to damage ratio, that they are more efficient.

But they still produce more heat than a bunch of SRM4s, which can make the the SRM4s more desirable in some cases as it can free up room for other things as you don't need as many heat sinks, or allow you to fire more continuously in order to harry your opponents since heat is easier to manage.

There are far too many "I know better than thou" elitists in this community when it comes to builds.

Edited by Ravingdork, 17 March 2013 - 09:26 PM.