448 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Tombe0, on 13 March 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

You might want to thank me sitting back (few) hundred meters next time I alpha the leg off of that annoying commando circling you and nibbling you to death.

An Atlas sitting back from the main scuffle doesn't mean the pilot doesn't know what he's doing... Most likely he knows far better what he's doing than you ever think.

It's true that an Atlas is a terrifying sight, but it comes with a dire cost too: You're a target the size of a mountain, and EVERYBODY, I mean absolutely everybody wants to kill an Atlas.

So next time you start foaming at mouth for that Atlas pilot staying a bit back, remember that he migth be the only thing keeping YOU alive because he stays back and uses his superior range to advantage.

Note: ALL my Atlas builds have now gone from closerange brawlers to sniper builds with ERPPCs / ERLLs / LRMs since the lag spike fixes

Or he could just have me guarding his six, and sanitizing lights off of him in my 95 kph heavy. And you could do your job and brawl, instead of getting us both killed because we don't have a 100 ton anchor point that we direly need in order to make it through combat alive.

Also, I can't sanitize mechs off -your- six when you're 800 meters due Backwards from the rest of us. I can't hit and fade when there's nothing to fade behind.
I can't take hits for you either when that splat cat sneaks up behind your overly zoomed backside either, because you're waaaay back there away from the rest of us.

Sure there's long arm atlases that don't suck. Infact having 1 to 2 long arm weapons on a Fatty isn't a bad idea. But to build your entire loadout around them and nothing but them is detrimental to the rest of the team. Especially when the enemy has fatties, and other assaults made to murder someone's face off at medium to short ranges.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 March 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Xando Parapasu]

Mavairo, on 16 March 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Or he could just have me guarding his six, and sanitizing lights off of him in my 95 kph heavy. And you could do your job and brawl, instead of getting us both killed because we don't have a 100 ton anchor point that we direly need in order to make it through combat alive.

Or you could stay within 1000m of your Fire Support platform. remember as we only have a few actual platforms to wiork with, we have to work with what we have, Would you tell a Naginata or Salamander to come into brawling range?

Quote

Also, I can't sanitize mechs off -your- six when you're 800 meters due Backwards from the rest of us. I can't hit and fade when there's nothing to fade behind.I can't take hits for you either when that splat cat sneaks up behind your overly zoomed backside either, because you're waaaay back there away from the rest of us.

If the match is going according to plan you should not have to come back to sanitize anyones' 6. And if that splatcat does make it to the fire support, well that just means the plan fell apart, as they often do. And again who is way back where? The Atlas is one of the slowest Mechs in the game, so if the Atlas is left behind your 95 Kph chassis, who left whom?

Quote

Sure there's long arm atlases that don't suck. Infact having 1 to 2 long arm weapons on a Fatty isn't a bad idea. But to build your entire loadout around them and nothing but them is detrimental to the rest of the team. Especially when the enemy has fatties, and other assaults made to murder someone's face off at medium to short ranges.

Again if you are outside 1,000 meters of your Atlas' guns(missiles, Gauss or ERPPC), it is not the Assaults' fault your 95 KpH Mech is getting murdered by the enemy Atlas now is it!

[DeaconW]

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

If one of them happens to be in my team I switch from "do your best and fight for the team" to " bite my shiny armored a..". Im switching rapidly between targets to make sure they waste ammo, or simply never pushing the "R". If I see some of the enemy flanking us, I lead them to the 100t waste of space and leaving him to the Rav... crows.

What a great "team" player you are...

[Havoc One]

This is entirely flawed and unrepresentative of all of the things an Atlas can be kitted to do for his/her team. Chances are you will never see my DDC, I'll finish the game with over a thousand damage and the final score will be 8-1/2. A well played and camo'd Atlas can stand about 300m from a brawl, never be seen and get to rain lrm45+art and Large Laser shots. An atlas is about positioning, you dont need to be a damage sponge and a waste of an ECM the first time the enemy team focuses you with PPCs. DO NOT be a spearhead as a slow mech, if the team ever needs to retreat you will be over run and burned down in seconds. You are a slow walking, ECM death machine, act like it.

[Dataman]

interesting topic. I'm trying to be neutral in this.

some says a brawler mech could do a double role as a tank, since they brawling in close range. (eg: a CTF-1X or CN9-AL), but it needs another mech as backup tank or backup fire.

some says an assault mech is automatically a tank, since they got most armor per ton, though I kinda disagree in this. an Awesome is not a tank, it's a PPC shooter mech that couldn't taking damage too long

IMO, an Atlas' reputation of tanker is built based on its own lore and legend and cool cutscene, where Atlas could shrugged off any damage, returning fire and then came out winner.

Well.. yes. look at their armor. 600 points default. Naturally they are a tank. But they aren't your moving fortress that could keep up with speed of average brawler. Their main job is: deployed in a coordinate, unleashed many damage in short time (without the overheat), and became a stationery fortress, taking damage, and repeat the 'unleashed damage in short time' part to keep enemy crossing perimeter. And that 100 ton giant still need backup to keep enemy little mech from circling them

and I think beside scout class and cicada, nearly every mech is suited for a tank, if you mean by tank is pushing enemies, taking damage from enemy while your teammate is circling enemies or shoot back or snipe or whatever.

[Royalewithcheese]

I've been messing around with an RS LLas/Gauss build recently for a change of pace (and because I need unlocks for the RS ) and my first impression is that an Atlas is just as terrible as I thought it would be as a fire support platform. The guns are just in really bad places for it, and it doesn't feel like it has enough mobility to get to where it needs to be. I do like that the sheer firepower makes you non-terrible at close-range (which is where basically all battles end up anyway) but yeah I think that in the future if I want to shoot stuff at long range I'll do it in a Jagermech or show some House Liao pride and make a poptart.

[Grauluchs]

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

You stated you'd deliberately switch targets to cause them to waste missiles.... Missiles which would have hit the enemy.

You stated its ok to hide an DDC with his Armor and ECM. Things that could protect the team and shield a wounded comrade. Both are doing it intentional so how is that different?

Maybe I just like to scare as much enemy mechs as possible by the potentional threat of multiple LRM boats, without denying the fun I have to see the LRM DDC strugle? Or manipulate the DDC as i need? It could be possible I want him to show his fatlas to the enemy hoping to get targets himself. which leads to my "distract them with the DDC LRM fatlas" plan?

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

And back-stabbing the enemy is fine, you were talking about back-stabbing your team-mates which is entirely different. Again, attempting to obfuscate the subject....

How is it different? If it serves the same purpose. If I win because we made your LRM DDC a scapegoat I see no problem. I see the LRM DDC as an attempt to backstab me.

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Oh and BTW for your information, I've spent approx 6 years studying military tactics and history, I've read the Art of War and many other different pieces of literature and they have NOTHING to do with what we were talking about.

Never doubted you. I am sure you are what you say to be, bacause you know I never doubt peoples in the internets. I dont want doubt you or the Girl who told me yesterday on the chat that she slept with Angelina Joilie or the fact that she is a girl.

Im just surpriesd that you never red in those "many pieces" things like

"Lies and betrayal are to be approved as long as they serve a higher purpose"

or the passage about the "doomed spy"

Maybe I made a mistake and the things I read are just some king of love novels written by some strange guys. But well, even in war and in love is everything allowed. I think it would be a good idea you put those 6 years of "studying" in good use and write a doctoral thesis how the humanity went wrong in the milenia of warfare using underhanded methods and betray if they fell there is a need and something to gain. Well I respect your hollywood farytale way of seeing things black and white in matter of warfare. Its so ....refreshing.

And they have EVERYTHING to do with the things we are talking about, because we are talking of different approches of acombat situations with a resources given.

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Between your mis-quotes and attempts to obfuscate the subject in question, I'm convinced you are trolling.

Misquoting, You should be the one talking. But nice move to call someone a troll because they have another/unpopular opinion. Well played sir.

DeaconW, on 16 March 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

What a great "team" player you are...

Thank you. I am, but not while pugging. There is a difference in beeing "teamplayer" and a "pawn"

Edited by Grauluchs, 16 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

"Attention: Atlas Pilots",I have always been jealous of you..!!!

Yup

[Drenzul]

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

You stated its ok to hide an DDC with his Armor and ECM. Things that could protect the team and shield a wounded comrade. Both are doing it intentional so how is that different?

Who said anything about hiding? Not me and a decent LRM boat normally doesn't hide unless he actually starts taking counter-fire.

Also the ECM is still useful for covering other LR boats near the atlas, so you are just wrong, a LRM atlas can use it's armour and ECM as well as a brawler can.

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Maybe I just like to scare as much enemy mechs as possible by the potentional threat of multiple LRM boats, without denying the fun I have to see the LRM DDC strugle? Or manipulate the DDC as i need? It could be possible I want him to show his fatlas to the enemy hoping to get targets himself. which leads to my "distract them with the DDC LRM fatlas" plan?

Yeah honest! Trying to make excuses now clearly.... Deliberately causing friendly missiles to miss will NOT convince the enemy team there are multiple LRM boats..... Not to mention any other mechs using your lock.

Your just making excuses for your childish behaviour now.

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

How is it different? If it serves the same purpose. If I win because we made your LRM DDC a scapegoat I see no problem. I see the LRM DDC as an attempt to backstab me.

LOL yeah more excuses... You aren't going to win by deliberatly causing friendly missiles to miss... or by leading the enemy ECM mechs to your LRM boats.... In almost all circumstances this will hurt your team not help it. And lol yeah, someone running a LRM atlas is an attempt to backstab you.... LOL honest....

Also this sort of behaviour is at BEST border-line griefing which is against the TOS.

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Im just surpriesd that you never red in those "many pieces" things like

"Lies and betrayal are to be approved as long as they serve a higher purpose"

or the passage about the "doomed spy"

Maybe I made a mistake and the things I read are just some king of love novels written by some strange guys. But well, even in war and in love is everything allowed. I think it would be a good idea you put those 6 years of "studying" in good use and write a doctoral thesis how the humanity went wrong in the milenia of warfare using underhanded methods and betray if they fell there is a need and something to gain. Well I respect your hollywood farytale way of seeing things black and white in matter of warfare. Its so ....refreshing.

And they have EVERYTHING to do with the things we are talking about, because we are talking of different approches of acombat situations with a resources given.

These situations are ALL about a King sacrificing a pawn to achieve a tactical advantage. IE sacrificing the spy to save the army or achieve a bigger objective. Again you go off the subject at hand in an attempt to obfuscate the point. They are about deceiving the enemy or a neutral to do something that benefits you. Perhaps if you took them in context it might help, instead of trying to twist everything to suit your argument.

Why big surprise that you are trying to twist my words to make out that I am saying deceiving the enemy was bad.

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Misquoting, You should be the one talking. But nice move to call someone a troll because they have another/unpopular opinion. Well played sir.

I don't care what your opinion is and you are entitled to it. You can think LRM atlases are a bad idea all you want, I don't have a problem with that, nor would I call you a troll for it. The fact you actually attempt to obfuscate the point in question with every response is what makes you a troll.

Also I never commented on your opinion or even if I agreed with it, I was commenting on the fact you are threatening to grief anyone who runs a LRM atlas on your team. Nothing to do with your opinions, its got to do with the actions YOU stated you make. Big surprise you try and obfuscate the point again here and twist my words.

[Uriah Fable]

Don't know how this topic got so much attention but all I can say to the OP is you're an *****. (same applies to all in this thread who want to place blame on one specific mech) If you think blaming Atlas pilots for all the things wrong with this game is the fix. Until we get a lobby system where we are not forced to drop with players who do not understand all the nuances of a combat sim where teamwork is key to success, the same arguement could be applied to ANY weight class or mech frame, period.

[Merky Merc]

I have found that decent "brawler" DDCs can make or break a game for a team. LRM boat DDCs do not, but it seems like assaults in general are often piloted by terrible pilots in one trick pony builds. I can make up the lack of damage when it's a medium or even heavy mech not carrying it's weight, but when these waste of space assaults are on my team, I'm gonna have a bad time.

Assault = spearhead assaults, not sit back in your ecm bubble and rain LRMs.

[Khobai]

Quote

Assault = spearhead assaults, not sit back in your ecm bubble and rain LRMs

Nope. Again... Atlases can't tank.

And this is going to become even more apparent when clan technology comes out. And you have four erppc madcats killing Atlases in two or three volleys of 60 damage.

There is a very serious imbalance with pinpoint aiming and convergence that makes it way too easy to kill mechs. I can kill an Atlas in less than 20 seconds with UAC/5s. They last about 5-10 seconds to any kind of serious focused fire.

Atlases really can't spearhead anything.

[Mavairo]

Xando Parapasu, on 16 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Or you could stay within 1000m of your Fire Support platform. remember as we only have a few actual platforms to wiork with, we have to work with what we have, Would you tell a Naginata or Salamander to come into brawling range?

If the match is going according to plan you should not have to come back to sanitize anyones' 6. And if that splatcat does make it to the fire support, well that just means the plan fell apart, as they often do. And again who is way back where? The Atlas is one of the slowest Mechs in the game, so if the Atlas is left behind your 95 Kph chassis, who left whom?

Again if you are outside 1,000 meters of your Atlas' guns(missiles, Gauss or ERPPC), it is not the Assaults' fault your 95 KpH Mech is getting murdered by the enemy Atlas now is it!

Or you could pilot a mech that's native role is Fire support, like an Awesome, or an LRM stalker instead of an Atlas. If you wanted to stay Assault. Or, you could have picked a mech that's even better geared towards bombardment like a kitty cat. And be faster in the bargain.

You can't work around the fact that once we get weight balancing back that there's going to be at least 1, 100 ton Fatty on the enemy team quite capable of wrecking havoc on the field, while ours? Is hiding aallll the way in the back like a chicken **** peeing all over himself and frantically taking long arm shots in a mech not made for it.

An Atlas who doesn't advance is going to be left behind. Especially if he's a chicken ****.

If you want to play fire support, how about play mech that is supposed to actually be fire support and not a 100 ton monstrosity that's meant to wreck people's face.
And then you fatty chicken turds complain that ''no one took the light mechs off of me!' well duh. Because we were too busy having to remove enemy mechs nearer the front lines to cover up the massive hole, that the absence of your 100 Ton Fat Backside made by not being there.

When I see an enemy Chicken **** Fatty I start giggling. Because I know all it takes is 2 lights getting over to him, and he's done. And they will get to him. Because he'll be so chicken **** that he'll never actually advance to keep within the majority of the groups ranges.

When I see a friendly Fatty that has nothing but long arm weapons on it, I seriously consider TKing him. Because that's all the use he's going to provide to the group anyway.

-my- Job is mid range, hits on the run, capping, or sanitizing sixes. Building my mech for anything else is functionally ********.
That's not the job of a Fatty. If I was in a kitty cat I'd be long range fire support, and much more capable of repositioning to be able to continue getting better and better shots on enemies, than some Fatty that's too slow to do that.
Hell the hard point locations on the fatty alone are not the least bit conducive to the kind of play you're after either.

TLDR play to what your mech is good at. You're forcing a square peg into a round hole by using a Fatty as a fire support mech.

Forcing everyone else on the team to play to your long arm fatty is completely backwards.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 March 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[Merky Merc]

Khobai, on 16 March 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Nope. Again... Atlases can't tank.

Atlases really can't spearhead anything.

Most armor of all the mechs. Wtf else is supposed to spearhead the assault? My 4SP while all my atlases derp around?

[p00k]

this thread:

Non-atlas pilots: go die for me so i can focus on shooting things
Atlas pilots: no.

[Drenzul]

So who decided the Atlas isn't a native fire-support mech?

You?

I don't see anything in game or in the lore saying 'The Atlas is a brawler'......

The whole point of configurable mechs is that they can be configured to fufill different roles and the Atlas works just as well as Fire-Support mech as it does as brawler.

Next you'll be telling people they shouldn't play 6xSRM6 cats since the catapult is naively a long-range boat and not a close-ranged mech......

A mid-long range atlas is just as effective as a short-ranged atlas if it is played well.
A bad player is going to suck regardless of if he makes it a long or short ranged mech.

Merky Merc, on 16 March 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Most armor of all the mechs. Wtf else is supposed to spearhead the assault? My 4SP while all my atlases derp around?

Also the biggest and slowest of all mechs which means it needs the armour just to survive the extra-firepower than you can avoid in your faster, smaller mech.......

In fact, hunchbacks/centurions make VERY GOOD spearheads simply because they CAN dodge a lot of incoming firepower thanks to their speed, assuming the pilot knows how to play of course.

[Merky Merc]

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Also the biggest and slowest of all mechs which means it needs the armour just to survive the extra-firepower than you can avoid in your faster, smaller mech.......

In fact, hunchbacks/centurions make VERY GOOD spearheads simply because they CAN dodge a lot of incoming firepower thanks to their speed, assuming the pilot knows how to play of course.

Also has massive firepower and serves as the vanguard in an assault given that armor and firepower, assuming the pilot knows how to play of course.

I can play this game too.

Hunchbacks and Cents are skirmishers, not the tip of the spear. A hunchback leading a charge is going to get just the tip.

[Mavairo]

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

So who decided the Atlas isn't a native fire-support mech?

You?

I don't see anything in game or in the lore saying 'The Atlas is a brawler'......

The whole point of configurable mechs is that they can be configured to fufill different roles and the Atlas works just as well as Fire-Support mech as it does as brawler.

Next you'll be telling people they shouldn't play 6xSRM6 cats since the catapult is naively a long-range boat and not a close-ranged mech......

A mid-long range atlas is just as effective as a short-ranged atlas if it is played well.
A bad player is going to suck regardless of if he makes it a long or short ranged mech.




Also the biggest and slowest of all mechs which means it needs the armour just to survive the extra-firepower than you can avoid in your faster, smaller mech.......

In fact, hunchbacks/centurions make VERY GOOD spearheads simply because they CAN dodge a lot of incoming firepower thanks to their speed, assuming the pilot knows how to play of course.

Look at it's hard points. It's convergence for the Long Arms is the worst, particularly while shooting medium to high speed targets at distance.

I don't have a problem with a fatty that has a long arm or two on the mech. I think if anyone was literate (guess long arm fatties aren't) I think they would have caught that. It's the whole mech being set as one that makes it completely stupid.

No it doesn't. Not compared to a K2, or Kitty cat. (the best long arm mech in the game. Irony that the same traits can make it one of the best brawlers as well, but that's mostly due to the insane torso twist it has)

Sure you ''can'' make an Atlas a long arm mech. But the sacrifice is not worth it in the slightest. It's still too slow to reposition, it's too slow to assist in late game pushes towards enemy bases, or for grouping up with friendlies again.

All you have is fat armor which is more useful in a fight than it is in a sniping match. Mobility, and good aiming convergence is far far more critical than armor and tonnage at that point.

However at the head of the fight, particularly in tight locations (where most of the above Suck For Luck ELO players play anyway to get cover from LRM fire) the Atlas's limited torso twist, poorer long arm convergence, and limited mobility stop being significant issues. Suddenly thanks to cover and the fact that you have a full team's fire support (particularly from the faster mechs), that armor goes alot farther than standing out where you can get sniped from enemy return fire which is vastly more accurate than your own.

1 LRM15, and something with reach like an AC10 (ballistics have 3x range remember) or UAC5? Okay. Good. It gives you some bite to get people to want to close abit.... 2 LRM20s/15s on the other hand? You might as well just sell that mech, because after the first couple of volleys unless you're running around in the Suck For Luck rankings isn't going to be doing successful bombardment what so ever.

Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should. Also hunchbacks, Centurions, Dragons, Kitty cats (outside of a tunnel, or in the city sections of river city), and even Cataphracts make pretty terrible spear tips compared to the Atlas, Awesome and Stalker. Because they don't have the raw firepower capability, nor heavy armor required for the whole of the team to be able to file out and start dancing with.

[Drenzul]

So is an atlas. 3-4 volleys can take one down.

Only difference is an atlas can't get out of the way.

There is NO mech in this game designed to tank.

There is NO mech in this game designed to spear-head a rush.

Mechs are ultra-heavy infantry, if you want to do a spear-head charge, thats what tanks are for. Mechs are the special ops forces of the BT universe.

[Merky Merc]

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Mechs are ultra-heavy infantry, if you want to do a spear-head charge, thats what tanks are for. Mechs are the special ops forces of the BT universe.

.... wat.