448 replies to this topic

[Locan Ravok]

Do you play the same game that I do? The only thing that soak damage in this game is speed. Sending an Atlas to tank is like throwing it into a lake o hot acid full of mutant piranas.

[Omega MK1]

Atlases are really being wasted, ive just killed three of your "meatshields" in a match in a dragon, seriusly, people dont know how to use them, they simply fire at everything that they see and let the atlases die for nothing, because when the atlases are down, they are next, and then they claim to have a "noob team". i always end up aiding the atlases on my team, while the rest of my team runs off scared... Seriusly people, atlases aren't invincible, if you dont aid them, they'll die. And, yes atlases are better on tanking damage, but they can also do other roles, like sniping, for example, on one match some time ago, ill ended fighting with the entire enemy team with 3 guys, i ll would have died if it wasnt for the sniper atlas pilot that aided me and the rest of my team.

[Wintersdark]

Josef Nader, on 16 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Holy crap people still don't understand what the word "tank" means in this context. It doesn't mean rhinohiding through damage. It means being able to be the primary focus target of the enemy for as long as possible. The Atlas is a tank. That armor does not let you meathead through attacks. It gives you the durability to survive prolonged periods of enemy engagement. If you aren't a trash pilot, the enemy will be -hunting- you for the entire duration of the engagement, not shooting at you.

I'm with you entirely on this. My arguments with regards to "tanking" were due to the posts directly equating tanking with damage soaking and the bizarre desire so many posts expressed(appeared to express?) to see atlases march up the center absorbing as much fire as possible. Several specifically calling out Atlas pilots for using cover, for example.

[Forestal]

Locan Ravok, on 16 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Do you play the same game that I do? The only thing that soak damage in this game is speed. Sending an Atlas to tank is like throwing it into a lake o hot acid full of mutant piranas.

That's cos you were lucky that there wasn't a trebbie sniper to take you out, while you were cluelessly playing with the atlas-- beware the rise of the trebbie sniper...

Yes, I have taken out lites that way-- they are to all appearance "stationary" at the apogee of their "dance/orbit" around the heavies, and they don't have the armor to take chain-firing PPCs...

Edited by Forestal, 16 March 2013 - 06:32 PM.

[Drenzul]

Sorry but if your putting yourself in a position to actually be hit by more than 2-3 enemy mechs, you've already made a huge ****-up.

The best tactic is to have everyone popping round and up from cover at different locations, forcing the enemy to NOT focus fire and to be constantly readjusting their aim.

The only way an atlas is 'Tanking' in this context is in that its big and scary so a lot of the enemies will probably make it a priority target, but the atlas should NOT be played as a tank.

Certainly exposing yourself to more than 2 enemy mechs is pretty dumb in pretty much any situation other than a coordinated rush anyway..

And I agree that my main cause of death is because I get surrounded cos I can't keep up with my team's lighter mechs and in PUGs they have a nasty tendency to ignore the atlas trying to keep up

[Grauluchs]

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Who said anything about hiding? Not me and a decent LRM boat normally doesn't hide unless he actually starts taking counter-fire.

I said an LRM DDC is basicaly hiding. Hes hiding behind his armor, the ECM and the LRM. I dont see a problem using any of this system, but the combination makes me think you are a coward. depending on John Doe Mechwarrior pugging and helping you, because you think youa re to awesome to be the active one.

counterfire? yes you will always get some most probably after the team made their job and you are finishing off the 20% mechs. My policy is to make sure those special builds get their share of enemy fire to "counter".

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Yeah honest! Trying to make excuses now clearly.... Deliberately causing friendly missiles to miss will NOT convince the enemy team there are multiple LRM boats..... Not to mention any other mechs using your lock.

Your just making excuses for your childish behaviour now.

oh please calling arguments excuses for your convinience. I would say that is childish. You can tell without a FAIL what the enemy is thinking? Impressive.Now you are mindreading the enemy additional to your wide military knowlledge. I admit Im at the disatvantage becaus I only assume. Yes they will probably consider there are multiple mechs if multiple targets are beeing targetet by LRMs. thats all I need. And whats wrong with not going with the plan of some random coward and using your own one?

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

LOL yeah more excuses... You aren't going to win by deliberatly causing friendly missiles to miss... or by leading the enemy ECM mechs to your LRM boats.... In almost all circumstances this will hurt your team not help it. And lol yeah, someone running a LRM atlas is an attempt to backstab you.... LOL honest....

LOL yeah you are right. LOL. But please consider LRM boat and a DDC LRM are not the same category for me. LOL. It doesnt hurt me If I win and you in your LRM DDC die as long as I can gain adavntage LOL. Yeah someone is running a build depending on me to sacrifice myself is trying to backstab me. the Pug game is a loneWolf not lone sheep or lone Lemming game. If you are depending on others do the job suited for an Atlas then yes you are backstabbing them. LOL... honest I see your attempt to redicule a valubale point of viewwithout using arguments...honest LOL thats what I find childish. But maybe you a just a funny person who likes to lough and jouyfully forgot some arguments, then sorry. LOL honest.

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Also this sort of behaviour is at BEST border-line griefing which is against the TOS.

You want to report me? Please do. Stop threaten me if you are not able to accept other people oppinions or bring some valuabale arguments.

As far as I recal the mission Brefing tells me to capture the zone and/or to kill enemy mechs. maybe its a hidden bonus Mission " be the errand boy for the LRM DDC because he is to scared of bullets". Im doing my best to win and I realy like to use the LRM DDC for my convenience (as decoy). Im not obliged to say yes to his strategy. Im using my own. My only fault Is to feel pleasure doing so.

Maybe you should report all the light mech pilots trying to kill the enemy LRM DDC or assaults in general, because they clearly have some fun. They are griefing.

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

These situations are ALL about a King sacrificing a pawn to achieve a tactical advantage. IE sacrificing the spy to save the army or achieve a bigger objective. Again you go off the subject at hand in an attempt to obfuscate the point. They are about deceiving the enemy or a neutral to do something that benefits you. Perhaps if you took them in context it might help, instead of trying to twist everything to suit your argument.

Why big surprise that you are trying to twist my words to make out that I am saying deceiving the enemy was bad.

If you are trying to undermine the credibility of my approach please use argument and not accusations.
Sarificing a pawn to gain a tactical advantage? Thats what I said. You said sacrificing a pawn, in this case a comrade, is not a strategy. Now you admit its a common practice. Im not twisting words just making clear where you are wrong. If you miss the contex maybe this will do:

his strategy + nice feeling for him
LRM DDC(King) -----> 7pugs(7 pawns to be used fo the sake of king)

my strategy + nice feeling for me + you calling me bad
7 Pugs(valuable warriors) ------>LRM DDC(Pawn)

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I don't care what your opinion is and you are entitled to it. You can think LRM atlases are a bad idea all you want, I don't have a problem with that, nor would I call you a troll for it. The fact you actually attempt to obfuscate the point in question with every response is what makes you a troll.

Also I never commented on your opinion or even if I agreed with it, I was commenting on the fact you are threatening to grief anyone who runs a LRM atlas on your team. Nothing to do with your opinions, its got to do with the actions YOU stated you make. Big surprise you try and obfuscate the point again here and twist my words.

boiling down to

I dont care. You think LRM DDC is bad dont make you a troll

never commented your opinion buuuuut you think LRM DDC is bad -> you stated you do your own thing ->you are griefing -> you a re a troll

I do not contradic myslef, its all your fault.

Drenzul, on 16 March 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Ok, time to correct some idiots I think.

1> The assault class in MWO does NOT mean a mech is actually designed to assault.
Any mech from 80-100 tons falls into this category regardless of if they are designed for attack, defence, scouting e.t.c.
2> An atlas is NOT a damage soak. An atlas putting itself in a position to soak damage is a dead atlas. The only real reason an atlas has more armour is because of it's lower speed and larger size meaning it will take more damage and take longer to get back into cover than smaller mechs.

3> Ranged atlas builds are perfectly viable and sensible builds, especially ECM builds providing cover for other LRM/Long range boats.

How is this not commenting an opinion? you say my oppinion of the atlas makes me an ***** then you present your own which obviosly dosnt make you the *****.

Thinking LRMDDC is junk and changing my strategy, or feeling anger is making me troll? If I feel anger about Raven raptor swarm and saving my own *** makes me troll too. If i dont like the 8 flamer HBK Im a troll, because I actualy felt something when he was firing them at the enemy? If I differ from you in my feelings, opinions and LoneWolf strategies Im a troll.

[Suki]

Merky Merc, on 16 March 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I have found that decent "brawler" DDCs can make or break a game for a team. LRM boat DDCs do not, but it seems like assaults in general are often piloted by terrible pilots in one trick pony builds. I can make up the lack of damage when it's a medium or even heavy mech not carrying it's weight, but when these waste of space assaults are on my team, I'm gonna have a bad time.

Assault = spearhead assaults, not sit back in your ecm bubble and rain LRMs.

Just to You and topickstarter....
It's only YOUR opinion about the assaults, thanks to share it but it means absolutely NOTHING to others.
Don't wanna play with atlases? - form your 8 man premade without ones and get rid us off your sorry *** opinion here and in game.

Edited by Suki, 16 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Suki]

Grauluchs, on 16 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

I said an LRM DDC is basicaly hiding. Hes hiding behind his armor, the ECM and the LRM. I dont see a problem using any of this system, but the combination makes me think you are a coward. depending on John Doe Mechwarrior pugging and helping you, because you think youa re to awesome to be the active one.

We're on the war here, didn't you noticed?
The person using all the equipment available just uses some of his brain to stay alive longer.
Try to say any police officer that if he's using armor he is coward, I wanna see it on video.

[Merky Merc]

Suki, on 16 March 2013 - 10:06 PM, said:

Just to You and topickstarter....
It's only YOUR opinion about the assaults, thanks to share it but it means absolutely NOTHING to others.
Don't wanna play with atlases? - form your 8 man premade without ones and get rid us off your sorry *** opinion here and in game.

You seem grumpy. And attempting to personally insult me was probably your best bet to make me see you have a valid opinion.

If I may be so bold, do you happen to run an LRM DDC? Do you often find yourself alone and outflanked because you left your brawling mediums and heavies to deal with enemy assaults while you wasted missiles on a light behind cover? If I were to form an 8 man I would certainly want Atlases, just... good atlases which seem to be in very short supply when pugging.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

An Atlas is a damage soak. It has the most armour, it has the most durability and in a lot of cases it has ECM. If you are not soaking damage, you are not doing your job. Did you get 600 damage? Great. Did you get 2 kills? Well done. Did the rest of your team die because they got alpha struck to death while you were playing coy buggers in the buildings? Then you're next, bucko, and the game has been lost. If you're winning, then it's likely because someone else has been soaking up the damage that you should have been sharing.

Due to the nature of how MWO works, an Atlas is always needed on the front lines. Massive burst damage and concentrated fire can and will annihilate members of your team that, if able to actually fire their weapons (perhaps due to the enemy team instead firing at the large 100 ton behemoth striding towards them) will allow your team to do more damage overall than you alone can manage. 400 + 400 is better than the 600 you will do by yourself.

Your Atlas is not an LRM boat. Get a Catapult. Your Atlas is not a sniper. Get a Stalker. If you want to use those weapons, by all means do so - on your way towards the battle lines. Your mech is one of the most important in any game you play and you must use its strengths to help your team succeed. Because it is your team that is important - if you yourself get blown up with only 200 damage done, but succeed in drawing enough fire to let your team win the match, then your role has been fulfilled and you can congratulate yourself on a job well done. That is your purpose. Start doing it.



Disclaimer: a Stalker could also arguably fill this role, but for several obvious reasons is not as effective.

There is a difference between being a damage soak and being the target of 8 guys focus fire.. The Purpose of an Atlas isn;t to just die first... If you are letting your atlases go in unsupported your no better then the Atlas pilot that hides

[Suki]

Merky Merc, on 16 March 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

You seem grumpy. And attempting to personally insult me was probably your best bet to make me see you have a valid opinion.

If I may be so bold, do you happen to run an LRM DDC? Do you often find yourself alone and outflanked because you left your brawling mediums and heavies to deal with enemy assaults while you wasted missiles on a light behind cover? If I were to form an 8 man I would certainly want Atlases, just... good atlases which seem to be in very short supply when pugging.

I'm not the grumpy one here but all the people wrighting somthing like - "I hate LRM-atlases, whenever i see one I shot him in the back".

Tried it myself, but humanoid mechs are not for my taste. I like more raven, cicada, cata, stalker, etc. all the chickenlegs ones.
And, I'm never alone, I'm almost always brawling even pure LRM-boats, course as I wrote many times before (and many other pro or semipro boats) - good LRM-boat in our game, not TT, is brawl-almostbrawl distance, when the enemy can't evade missiles using cover.

[p00k]

surprised this thread has lasted this long

atlas pilots will still play the way they feel is best
people like OP will still think they know how to pilot any mech better than the people who actually do pilot them

[B E E L Z E B U B]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

An Atlas is a damage soak. It has the most armour, it has the most durability and in a lot of cases it has ECM. If you are not soaking damage, you are not doing your job. Did you get 600 damage? Great. Did you get 2 kills? Well done. Did the rest of your team die because they got alpha struck to death while you were playing coy buggers in the buildings? Then you're next, bucko, and the game has been lost. If you're winning, then it's likely because someone else has been soaking up the damage that you should have been sharing.

Due to the nature of how MWO works, an Atlas is always needed on the front lines. Massive burst damage and concentrated fire can and will annihilate members of your team that, if able to actually fire their weapons (perhaps due to the enemy team instead firing at the large 100 ton behemoth striding towards them) will allow your team to do more damage overall than you alone can manage. 400 + 400 is better than the 600 you will do by yourself.

Your Atlas is not an LRM boat. Get a Catapult. Your Atlas is not a sniper. Get a Stalker. If you want to use those weapons, by all means do so - on your way towards the battle lines. Your mech is one of the most important in any game you play and you must use its strengths to help your team succeed. Because it is your team that is important - if you yourself get blown up with only 200 damage done, but succeed in drawing enough fire to let your team win the match, then your role has been fulfilled and you can congratulate yourself on a job well done. That is your purpose. Start doing it.



Disclaimer: a Stalker could also arguably fill this role, but for several obvious reasons is not as effective.

heres the thing, i have been playing an atlas for a long time, though allways as a pug so this is relevant for a pug play style.
i earned my first kill in mwo with an atlas back in closed betta. here is the sum of my atlas experience. the atlas should be something of an all rounder front liner... it should be played (no exaggeration) with a minimum of 4 weapons groups. it should cover all ranges and it should be able to unleash good amounts of damage from far away all the way down to face to face action. an atlas can never play alone, that means that sniping in an atlas IS a bad idea. an atlas should allways rely on his teams support fire while being exposed (this is where your thread is correct). an atlas is big and intimidating but only when it has the ability to shoot at all targets. if an atlas is shooting all targets its obviously attracting all the fire power, so his team should support fire him (those who can). an atlas shouldnt be allways on point, its job is not to die. so you dont just rush like a noob, you move, shoot from cover points, you rush when your team has downed 2 heavy/assaults. so in the end an atlas is a good front liner because he should dictate your teams battle line but only until its armor is gone. the moment the armor is gone is the the moment the roles flip and the atlas should become a long range support mech

Edited by Karma Police, 17 March 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Karma Police, on 17 March 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

heres the thing, i have been playing an atlas for a long time, though allways as a pug so this is relevant for a pug play style.
i earned my first kill in mwo with an atlas back in closed betta. here is the sum of my atlas experience. the atlas should be something of an all rounder front liner... it should be played (no exaggeration) with a minimum of 4 weapons groups. it should cover all ranges and it should be able to unleash good amounts of damage from far away all the way down to face to face action.

Issue there being that a brawler atlas pretty much trumps an all round build.

The D-DC was popular before ECM for that reason, raw stank with x3 SRM6s....or as an LRM boat, but an atlas with three LRM 15s and a couple lasers isn't very intimidating, not up close anyway.

[MischiefSC]

You know what I ran into playing around today?

D-DC (or a D for that matter) with AC10, AC5, 2LLs, 2xSRM6+Artemis.

Seems odd, right? Here's the thing.

No jams like dual UAC5s.

A steady 7DPS (compared to the AC20s 6) at only 4 heat. Holding the trigger down on those linked boys is no more heat intensive than popping off a single ML. 4 tons AC10, 3 tons AC5 and you've got 60 shots of EACH. Enough to just spray and pray. It's better than heat neutral with steady AC fire letting me cool the LLs and SRMs while still reminding someone that if they don't keep moving for cover I'm going to keep hurting them.

Also, more importantly, that damage is good for the full 15 at 500m and that AC5 can sting at 1200 or 1300. Enough to make someone duck their head on Alpine. The AC20 is pretty useless past 500.

With maps getting bigger and LRMs more popular I'm finding I need the face-splatting power of the 3xSRM6s less and less and solid range power more. ERLLs kill heat and effectively keep you from using them for brawling, costing you firepower instead of adding it.

It also keeps a steady stream up. The AC20 is on a 4 second cycle, the AC5 and 10 at 1.7 and 2.5 respectively. This makes it far more forgiving for missed shots and better for keeping a steady hit on someone. How often do you find yourself in an Atlas needing to take a shot but having nothing cycled to take it?

The D-DC is in many ways all about taking advantage of opportunities. The AC10/AC5 setup lets me choose those opportunities with more flexibility. I'm finding that the LLs and ACs are steady killing power at 500 and closer, decent sniper weapons out to 800. The 2xSRM6s are just for the finishing touch at point blank. By the time someone is at 135m so far I've gotten consistent at getting them down to internals anyway.

Seriously, try it. std 320, endo, DHS, an extra HS or two, ECM, 2LL, 2xSRM6+Artemis, AC10, AC5, enough ammo to shoot until the other guy stops twitching.

The tactical field is changing. bigger maps, more range. Also more LRMs. A pure brawler is less and less effective. Builds need to change with the times.

[Grauluchs]

Suki, on 16 March 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

We're on the war here, didn't you noticed?
The person using all the equipment available just uses some of his brain to stay alive longer.
Try to say any police officer that if he's using armor he is coward, I wanna see it on video.

Maybe a video where he is sending his less well armored and equipted partner in a crackhouse full of gangsters while waiting outside?

This is without doubt war. And I refuse tu be someone elses equipment, I rather make him mine. Im doing what you said. Im using my brain to stay alive longer myself.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you can't figure out how to tank with 600 points of armor. Wow

You dont have to do 600 points of damage to kill an Atlas though. Its actually quite easy to take down an Atlas thanks to precise aiming, weapon convergence, obscenely large hit locations, and the fact the Atlas is a very slow moving target.

[Josef Nader]

Locan Ravok, on 16 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Do you play the same game that I do? The only thing that soak damage in this game is speed. Sending an Atlas to tank is like throwing it into a lake o hot acid full of mutant piranas.

Speed doesn't help you one bit against a team that can aim. At that point, you're relying on the incompetence of the enemy team to protect you, and that rarely turns out well against better players. The Raven 3L is the only mech that can still get away with this, largely thanks to it's extremely goofy hitboxes.

Khobai, on 17 March 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

You dont have to do 600 points of damage to kill an Atlas though. Its actually quite easy to take down an Atlas thanks to precise aiming, weapon convergence, obscenely large hit locations, and the fact the Atlas is a very slow moving target.

If the atlas is an ID10T and marches towards you with his CT in full view, yes. Optimally, the Atlas will get and keep your attention for as long as possible while minimizing firing windows.

Edited by Josef Nader, 17 March 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[Suki]

Grauluchs, on 17 March 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Maybe a video where he is sending his less well armored and equipted partner in a crackhouse full of gangsters while waiting outside?

This is without doubt war. And I refuse tu be someone elses equipment, I rather make him mine. Im doing what you said. Im using my brain to stay alive longer myself.

It's a free world, anybody can run anything from Commando to Atlas. Don't wanna be "less well armored" - don't choose less armored mechs. If your religion doesn't let you run assaults then it's all your problem and stop hating them here already.

[Khobai]

Quote

If the atlas is an ID10T and marches towards you with his CT in full view, yes. Optimally, the Atlas will get and keep your attention for as long as possible while minimizing firing windows.

Whats he gonna do? Walk at you sideways and shoot you with his arm laser? The majority of the Atlas' weapons are torso mounted, and mounted low in the torso at that, so its impossible to shoot anyone without exposing your center torso... unless theyre distracted by something else... which only further reinforces the idea that Atlases should not be the frontline mechs.