170 replies to this topic

[Foust]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Not so much so based on my experience both using them and getting hit. Sometimes you get hit while trying to dodge other enemy fire and you cannot always stay in cover to avoid lrms, while I'm doing that and get hit by one salvo my center torso in my cat was red. I've fired upon someone saw the missle change course and follow them as they were trying to dodge the slavo and I turned their center torso red as well.

Sometimes you cant stay behind cover, I agree. I can not maintain cover all the time, especially if I'm being forcibly swept out of it into the loving embrace of incoming fire of all forms.

And yes depending on the volume of missiles that struck your CT, it certainly could go red. The same thing happens to me if I am on the receiving end of a quad PPC stalker shot.

I have also witnessed LRMs change direction to chase a target. That happens when the lock was broken mid flight, and then regained. The LRM's resume tracking which causes the altered path. Breaking a lock intentionally to achieve this effect may or may not be a secret squirrel stuff.

[FrDrake]

RickySpanish, on 13 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Two things when fighting mechs using LRMs:

1) If they're pure LRM boats, try and stand in front of them to catch some or all of their volley so it doesn't reach your team mates

2) If they're smart, they'll be amongst their own team-mates instead of sniping away like idiots. In this case you're screwed.

I had never considered trying to eat their missiles point blank, that is an awesome tip I love it. You got a like for it !

Here's one in return, in my Treb I've noticed that if I time a jump for when the LRMs are just about to hit me I can sometimes dodge most of them or if I wait too long I at least focus the damage to my legs with some CT splash. This probably works with other jumping mechs too but the Treb is the only jumper I've played recently.

[NKAc Street]

Baltasar, on 13 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Tested them, w/o artemis the missiles spread out over the mech more damage is done to the, usually, than other areas.
With artemis, damage is still spread out but greater concentration on CT and a little bit more with TAG

Now this was done, on testing grounds, so mechs were stationary and I was stationary at the time of firing. However, I did notice one thing, The only time the majority of the missiles were hitting CT was when the mech was standing directly facing my missiles. From the sides the missiles barely scratched the CT.

Lessons learned. Don't run strait ahead into an LRM boat. Torso twisting is your friend. All missiles ARE NOT hitting just CT. Artemis is providing its benefit as well as tag. Elevation does change spread as well. The higher you are the more damage is done to the head left, and right torsos and CT. The lower you are the damage will spread to the feet and less to the head.

I get all that but most people are not having experiences in that manner. I have yet to be hit with lrms while trying to avoid them even if hit with a few as I duck around a building that did not damage my CT, all the the friends i play with encounter the same thing. People in chat say the same thing. And the best evidence is that since the change there is more widespread use of lrms, there is only two reasons, first is to try the change, and since they have been changed long enough, people still boat them because they ARE better than they were.

Funny how the boaters don't want to apply the "tactics" angle if they might face them being nerfed, but when they are buffed of course people should just use "tactics" to avoid them. Really they just need to be changed back, there was no good reason to chnange them except as some kind of bandaid for ecm.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Sprouticus, on 13 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

I am always shocked that more people dont twist as the missiles get to their mech. That alone will spread the damage tremendously. Turn all the way to the left (or right depending on mech). When just about to get hit, start torso twisting, keep twisting until the barrage is complete. Usually it only lasts for half a twist. Sometimes even less.

I think part of this is from playing FOTM/Cheesebuilds/Only Atlases or Speed Shielded Lights.

I have played 1100 of my 1300 games in a Centurion.

Guess what I've gotten good doing? Torso twisting so that my shield arm eats damage. And then when I realized the gun arm was a liability and started packing missiles into my torso's, I use BOTH arms as shields.

Then when my arms are gone, I twist my right torso (no hardpoints) into the damage.

And that's with a medium mech.

Think how good spreading the damage works with more armor.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 13 March 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[FrDrake]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

I get all that but most people are not having experiences in that manner. I have yet to be hit with lrms while trying to avoid them even if hit with a few as I duck around a building that did not damage my CT, all the the friends i play with encounter the same thing. People in chat say the same thing. And the best evidence is that since the change there is more widespread use of lrms, there is only two reasons, first is to try the change, and since they have been changed long enough, people still boat them because they ARE better than they were.

Funny how the boaters don't want to apply the "tactics" angle if they might face them being nerfed, but when they are buffed of course people should just use "tactics" to avoid them. Really they just need to be changed back, there was no good reason to chnange them except as some kind of bandaid for ecm.

From what I recall in Tom's post they were changed to eliminate the "pinching" effect. Does anyone else have the same recollection?

[Calem]

"But people boat them! It must be right!"

That's it for me, might be back later. Bye!

[Fut]

Foust, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Also if the target is taking all the missiles to the center torso, the target is doing nothing but watching them impact.

Something like this deserves to be read again... and again.

[RickySpanish]

FrDrake, on 13 March 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I had never considered trying to eat their missiles point blank, that is an awesome tip I love it. You got a like for it !

Here's one in return, in my Treb I've noticed that if I time a jump for when the LRMs are just about to hit me I can sometimes dodge most of them or if I wait too long I at least focus the damage to my legs with some CT splash. This probably works with other jumping mechs too but the Treb is the only jumper I've played recently.

When I was levelling my spiders (shudder) I'd occasionally try and duke LRMs by jumping, but the consequence of that was usually just the prolonging of my life by about 30 seconds as the enemy team closed around my now legless light

[NKAc Street]

Calem, on 13 March 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I took the liberty of loading into the environment which would support your false claim best: Testing grounds, against a stationary atlas, and fired 4 x 30 ALRMs into it, with TAG applied:



As you can see, even against a stationary target, with Artemis, and TAG, LRMs hit a ) all over the place b ) areas facing the incoming LRMs. Not just CT. As people including myself have been saying over and over. The Atlas was looking at 4 o'clock and thus got hit mostly into RT. It stood at 79% after eating 120 ALRMS. Stationary. With Tag. Quick probability math: Stock AS7-D 608 armour plus 50% internals = 912 points of health without items, 21% taken off = 191,52 divided by 120 LRMs = 1,596 damage per LRM. Yep, fits common averages.

Real damage is far less due to people moving and stuff, but that's not the point. Point is: LRMs don't home onto your CT, you can actively spread damage around if need be.

It's not a false claim it is simply what is being observed in the games. I went in the test environment with my splat cat, and there is no comparison to actually using it on moving targets in an online game.. What people are finding is that lrms are killing them quicker and many talk about their center torso getting cored quickly, combine that with the fact that you see more and more of them in games and there is only one reason for that. You can go to the testing grounds all you want, it really is not what people are reporting in the games so I do not know what else to say.

If they do nerf them suck it up and use tactics like is said for everyone to avoid them, oh yeah. they cannot be nerfed because they are not better....lol

Edited by NKAc Street, 13 March 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Baltasar]

FrDrake, on 13 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

From what I recall in Tom's post they were changed to eliminate the "pinching" effect. Does anyone else have the same recollection?

Yes, there was something about the "pinching" being exploitable or something.

[FrDrake]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

It's not a false claim it is simply what is being observed in the games. I went in the test environment with my splat cat, and there is no comparison to actually using it on moving targets in an online game.. What people are finding is that lrms are killing them quicker and many talk about their center torso getting cored quickly, combine that with the fact that you see more and more of them in games and there is only one reason for that. You can go to the testing grounds all you want, it really is not what people are reporting in the games so I do not know what else to say.

If they do nerf them suck it up and use tactics like is said for everyone to avoid them, oh yeah. they cannot be nerfed because they are not better....lol

If LRMs damage was taken back down to 1.5 the same people would still die from them match after match and still say they're OP. While people like me and others who find them fun to use would still rake in the kills/dmg. I'm fine with a 15-20% dmg nerf, won't change them a bit for me.

[Baltasar]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

It's not a false claim it is simply what is being observed in the games. I went in the test environment with my splat cat, and there is no comparison to actually using it on moving targets. What people are finding is that lrms are killing them quicker and many talk about their center torso getting cored quickly, combine that with the fact that you see more and more of them in games and there is only one reason for that.

Well, not just one reason. People are finally getting tired of running their ECM mechs only so there is less ECM on the field then there use to be so LRMs can be effective again (along with the TAG being raised).

Some people are starting to carry a launcher (or two on bigger mechs) along with their make up do to alpine and them wanting to balance their builds. So, you are seeing lots of mechs fire their one launcher coupled with a boat and you see a lot of LRMs in the air.

Some are in the leveling stages of a particular chasis that does well with LRMs.

Some realize that LRMs are a potent weapon when used well and enjoy the style of game play (not to mention one of trial mechs is solely built around LRMs plus the other 2 are carrying LRMs as well).

I'm not saying that people aren't using LRMs as a sole weapon system more than not, but I think more people are realizing that they are a powerful weapon and are trying them out the like seeing high damage numbers as well and couple that with less ECM on the field they are becoming useful again (especially since people got so used to missiles not being around that they forgot how to play around them).

[Fut]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

It's not a false claim it is simply what is being observed in the games. I went in the test environment with my splat cat, and there is no comparison to actually using it on moving targets in an online game.. What people are finding is that lrms are killing them quicker and many talk about their center torso getting cored quickly, combine that with the fact that you see more and more of them in games and there is only one reason for that. You can go to the testing grounds all you want, it really is not what people are reporting in the games so I do not know what else to say.

If they do nerf them suck it up and use tactics like is said for everyone to avoid them, oh yeah. they cannot be nerfed because they are not better....lol

Umm.. I know what we can say... It's difficult to have an accurate test in-game, due to the fact that there's the possibility of 7 other 'Mechs shooting at your while the LRMs are coming in. How can you be certain what weapon is hitting you where in the heat of combat?

At least the Testing Ground is a controlled environment.

[NKAc Street]

FrDrake, on 13 March 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

If LRMs damage was taken back down to 1.5 the same people would still die from them match after match and still say they're OP. While people like me and others who find them fun to use would still rake in the kills/dmg. I'm fine with a 15-20% dmg nerf, won't change them a bit for me.

I never died to lrms till the change. Not that I'm mad because I have to seek cover more, I just think part of the change was to couple an advantage to the ppc countering ecm. they should of just left them alone. Ecm is causing too many chnanges to the game for it not to also be a problem.

[Baltasar]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I never died to lrms till the change. Not that I'm mad because I have to seek cover more, I just think part of the change was to couple an advantage to the ppc countering ecm. they should of just left them alone. Ecm is causing too many chnanges to the game for it not to also be a problem.

Well, some balancing might have to be seriously look at when they decide on how they want to change ECM in the future (which they are planning) who knows how that will affect their decision on LRMs.

[Fut]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

I never died to lrms till the change. Not that I'm mad because I have to seek cover more, I just think part of the change was to couple an advantage to the ppc countering ecm. they should of just left them alone. Ecm is causing too many chnanges to the game for it not to also be a problem.

So the tighter grouping of Artemis is what's causing you to die to LRMs so much more now?

You realize they have to keep LOS on you for that Artemis Grouping to destroy you "so easily"?
What weapons do you use? Try shooting back at the LRM'er a bit, might be enough to get him off of you, thus allowing you to move into the sweet sweet embrace of cover.

Oh, also, how do you figure that the Artemis grouping revision is to nerf ECM? Artemis can be grouped as tight as a laser beam and it still won't effect 'Mechs with ECM unless there's a counter-ECM or TAG working on the target.

I think the Devs just realized that LRMs being fired with LOS needed a bit of a buff, because LRMs are slow as **** and give people a warning, where every other weapon in the game does not.... So to make LOS-LRMs viable, they needed a small boost.

Edited by Fut, 13 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[NKAc Street]

Fut, on 13 March 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

Umm.. I know what we can say... It's difficult to have an accurate test in-game, due to the fact that there's the possibility of 7 other 'Mechs shooting at your while the LRMs are coming in. How can you be certain what weapon is hitting you where in the heat of combat?

At least the Testing Ground is a controlled environment.

From time to time I am under cover and do not always time my advance good and get hit by them, it is not too far off to know that using the same tactics I now if I get hit by them I am far more damaged than before. So yep, I changed tactics. I am mostly speaking up based on the claims that damage levels have either not changed or are less, and thats just not true based on what most people are reporting in game. So while I agree playing has many many variables to contend with, but there some basic observations that they are better than before by many people.

And realistically, if they did change them back to the way they were and the damage would not actually be changed, then those who are saying that about damage it would be of no consequense to them, so why do they care?

Yeah, I can think of a reason.

[NKAc Street]

Fut, on 13 March 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

So the tighter grouping of Artemis is what's causing you to die to LRMs so much more now?

You realize they have to keep LOS on you for that Artemis Grouping to destroy you "so easily"?
What weapons do you use? Try shooting back at the LRM'er a bit, might be enough to get him off of you, thus allowing you to move into the sweet sweet embrace of cover.

Oh, also, how do you figure that the Artemis grouping revision is to nerf ECM? Artemis can be grouped as tight as a laser beam and it still won't effect 'Mechs with ECM unless there's a counter-ECM or TAG working on the target.

I think the Devs just realized that LRMs being fired with LOS needed a bit of a buff, because LRMs are slow as **** and give people a warning, where every other weapon in the game does not.... So to make LOS-LRMs viable, they needed a small boost.

I'm just going by the claims that people make that say no one is really getting killed easier with them now since the change. I can still take cover and such, but the claims that they do the same or even less damage isn;t what people are experiencing.

My speculation on the reason they changed them is just my opinion. they might have changed them due to the size of alpine, but now since the change and more complaints comingh about now pgi is asking us about ecm, not a coincidence to me is all.

[Darwins Dog]

Some people have mentioned it above me, but it bears repeating. If 3-4 assault mechs are shooting at you, you will die. It doesn't really matter if they have LRMs, PPCs, SRMs, or MLs. LRMs are effective at causing damage from range, and behind cover, but it's not the weapon system that's killing you. You are dying because 150 tons of weapons are aimed at you.

[Fut]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

From time to time I am under cover and do not always time my advance good and get hit by them, it is not too far off to know that using the same tactics I now if I get hit by them I am far more damaged than before. So yep, I changed tactics. I am mostly speaking up based on the claims that damage levels have either not changed or are less, and thats just not true based on what most people are reporting in game. So while I agree playing has many many variables to contend with, but there some basic observations that they are better than before by many people.

And realistically, if they did change them back to the way they were and the damage would not actually be changed, then those who are saying that about damage it would be of no consequense to them, so why do they care?

Yeah, I can think of a reason.

Sorry, Man. Not sure if it's because I'm distracted or not (currently at work), but I fail to see how you addressed the issue of whether or not testing weapon damage in the Testing Grounds vs a Live Game is more accurate....