170 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

Eddy Hawkins, on 14 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

have you read the SRM post in patch feedback? the post is well put together and thread includes video evidance from others who did testing on their own. Yes, it is not dealing with LRMs, however splash works the same fi it is SRM, SSRM, or LRM.

Also, i never said LRMs are OP, mearly that in some cases, they are doing more damage then intended.

here is the link if you have not seen the post

http://mwomercs.com/...e/page__st__200

I've read it more then a few times now.

I find it simply explaining a game mechanic and not indicative of anything that is wrong with the game. Srm's and Lrm's are fine as it. Any reduction in the damage they cause now (splash damage) will result in them needed a damage buff to compensate. Otherwise it will simply be a damage reduction.

Some people are getting all worked up over discovering how splash damage works. But have never complained about the damage before learning how it actually worked.

That's a bit odd.

[Eddy Hawkins]

Nightcrept, on 14 March 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I've read it more then a few times now.

I find it simply explaining a game mechanic and not indicative of anything that is wrong with the game. Srm's and Lrm's are fine as it. Any reduction in the damage they cause now (splash damage) will result in them needed a damage buff to compensate. Otherwise it will simply be a damage reduction.

Some people are getting all worked up over discovering how splash damage works. But have never complained about the damage before learning how it actually worked.

That's a bit odd.

No one complanined becuse, untill a few weeks ago, we did not have the tools to prove if our suspisons were true or not. if somone had made a post about splash but provided no evidance, it would have simply been dissmised as "a game mechanic, and it is working as intended"

is it working as intended that one volley of a single SRM6 (doing 15damage) is able to core a mech with 16 front armor?

[BloodyProphecy]

Why does everyone keep saying caustic and that new large map have no cover?? There are mountains all over the place, and big hills that work great as well, LRM boats normaly try to stay around 600-max rang from there targets, meaning that the LRM's take some time to get to you, so if you are partialy up a hill peeking over or have cover nearby, then all you have to do is move a little bit. EVERY single map has cover available on it. Just Move smart, avoid large open areas unless your just crossing them quickly and ALWAYS stay near cover....

[Baltasar]

Don't know if this was considered in the thread (at work in between appointments) but is there a chance that ammo is critting at times on these mechs as well...not saying splash damage isn't wrong but if ammo is being critted it's going to do quite a number on the testing ground mechs as well.

[FrDrake]

I read the post and honestly I'm a little skeptical, he's claiming to have done 250 points of damage to a jenner, max armor on a jenner plus internals is around 330. Stock jenners (except for F I believe) come with 120 points of external armor.

Admittedly, I haven't peer reviewed his numbers as close as I should, but at first read of his numbers seemed suspicious to me.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Baltasar, on 14 March 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Don't know if this was considered in the thread (at work in between appointments) but is there a chance that ammo is critting at times on these mechs as well...not saying splash damage isn't wrong but if ammo is being critted it's going to do quite a number on the testing ground mechs as well.

On most of the tests that have been posted, the damage was being spread and multiplied before the armor was stripped, meaning that ammo explosions were not the cause.

FrDrake, on 14 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I read the post and honestly I'm a little skeptical, he's claiming to have done 250 points of damage to a jenner, max armor on a jenner plus internals is around 330. Stock jenners (except for F I believe) come with 120 points of external armor.

Admittedly, I haven't peer reviewed his numbers as close as I should, but at first read of his numbers seemed suspicious to me.

Do not forget that he is also including the amount of internal structure. The 100% figure attached to your mech (or any mech that you look at that is not damaged) is a combination of armor+structure. The values for structure are easily calculated, and the armor values are also known amounts.

All of his results are easily replicated in both the Training Grounds and the Live servers.

[FrDrake]

Tickdoff Tank, on 14 March 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

On most of the tests that have been posted, the damage was being spread and multiplied before the armor was stripped, meaning that ammo explosions were not the cause.



Do not forget that he is also including the amount of internal structure. The 100% figure attached to your mech (or any mech that you look at that is not damaged) is a combination of armor+structure. The values for structure are easily calculated, and the armor values are also known amounts.

All of his results are easily replicated in both the Training Grounds and the Live servers.

I did take that into account in my post, as you see above I put that 330 dmg should be the absolute maximum a jenner could take. He's claiming 250 dmg on a jenner with most likely stock armor of 128, so even counting the other 110 internals that's only 238 maximum damage if you were able to put every piece down to 1 HP internal without destroying the mech.

If he's stated a reason somewhere that makes sense please let me know, I'm kinda busy today and can't post much.

*Edit* Ok, just quick skimmed it again, he was saying the Jenner should have 250 total HP based on internals/externals which matches with what I thought. I'm on the same page now. That being said I went and looked at my streak stats, it claims I'm getting 3.3 damage per missile hit, which I find rather odd.

Edited by FrDrake, 14 March 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[Nightcrept]

Eddy Hawkins, on 14 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

No one complanined becuse, untill a few weeks ago, we did not have the tools to prove if our suspisons were true or not. if somone had made a post about splash but provided no evidance, it would have simply been dissmised as "a game mechanic, and it is working as intended"

is it working as intended that one volley of a single SRM6 (doing 15damage) is able to core a mech with 16 front armor?

Your not following me I think.

I'm saying the weapons effect in game are balanced. How they got there is flawed.

So 1 srm-6 at point blank is supposed to kill a com. So what that means is to keep that balance after splash damage is removed missiles will need a major buff of around a full point each.

So your looking at a srm-6 dealing 3.5 each for 21 possible damage just to keep anywhere near current balance.

Otherwise your looking at am effective reduction in the effect of those weapons by more then a third.

[Nightcrept]

Thontor, on 14 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I'm lost as to what post we are talking about that talks about a Jenner...

But Jenner internals are 125

(Internal structure)=((Max armor)-18)/2)+15

Or (max armor)/2+6

Max armor=238

Internals= 238/2 +6

Internals = 125

So that makes the total with stock armor 253
And with max armor 363

Patch feedback splash damage thread.

Someone posted splash damage to indicate lrm op.

but of course that is irrelevant because in this case it is the end balance of the weapon that is being debated not the game mechanics to get there.

[Marduk Moreau]

Major Scumbag, on 13 March 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

LRM=Death by Coward

Really? Why is it cowardly to kill your enemy BEFORE they can threaten you? That isn't cowardly, its smart.

[Eddy Hawkins]

Nightcrept, on 14 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Your not following me I think.

I'm saying the weapons effect in game are balanced. How they got there is flawed.

So 1 srm-6 at point blank is supposed to kill a com. So what that means is to keep that balance after splash damage is removed missiles will need a major buff of around a full point each.

So your looking at a srm-6 dealing 3.5 each for 21 possible damage just to keep anywhere near current balance.

Otherwise your looking at am effective reduction in the effect of those weapons by more then a third.

i am following, you claimed that if splash was OP and had been in game for months, why did it take months for everyone to start complaining. and i am telling you that the reason for that is, until a few weeks ago, we did not have the tools to do the necessary testing

and no it is not meant to be this way, a single SRM6 doing 15pts of damage should not be blowing arms and coring a mech, when three MLS do 15 and only bring one section to "red" armor. that splatcat doing 90pts alpha? it is actually doing almost 300pts. if missiles were brought inline to what they are supposed to be doing, you wouldn’t see so many people complaining about imbalance.

im not asking for missiles to have a increase in damage to make up for the loss of any damage if they lose splash. all i want is if they are supposed to do 15pts, they need to do 15pts, not 60. if that means it takes 3 volleys to kill something instead of one, then i am fine with that.

Edited by Eddy Hawkins, 14 March 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Theevenger]

Hamm3r, on 13 March 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

That's why I say INDIVIDUALLY there not OP, but if 3-4 people are at 35% with LRMs, collectively...different story my friend. If your in the middle of a fight, that means that guys LRM boat team mates can target you, and you wont know where they are before they fire at you unless one of your team mates targets them first. Its not always black and white, its easy to sit there and say Use cover, or your a dumb@$$ if you get killed by LRMs. I will admit that if your walking blindly out in the open, then your asking for it, but that's just simply not always the case in the real (MWO anyways) world. I play LRM boats sometimes too and 9 times outa 10 are you fireing at an idivadual target weaving his way tward the cap?? No your shooting at enemies in the middle of a brawl with your team mates because your trying to support them.

If 3-4 people on their team were LRM, then you should easily be able to close to brawl with them and negate the usefulness of their weapons. If you fail to capitalize on their weaknesses with your strengths, LRMs still aren't OP. You're (not you, but the strawmen we are talking about) are just UP.

[Aim64C]

Nick Carlile, on 13 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm calling shenanigans. Against a spider or commando that is COMPLETELY stationary. I might be able to shoot my LRM 15's (2 of them, with artemis and tag) twice and kill them out right.

I've never killed a hunchback or larger in 2 volley's with that mech.

And I sure as **** don't kill Atlas' in 2 volley's.

Show me some video of a Catapult with 2 LRM 15's killing mechs with 2 volley's.

I have one shot a commando on 2 occasions with 2x LRM15+Artemis.

Why these guys decided to stand still in the middle of capturing... I have no idea. Why the guy on alpine did not move after, surely, getting a warning about missiles being launched on him (from somewhere between 600-800 meters away with at least +200 meters elevation) ... I have no idea.

The other guy was just in a bad spot and should not have been standing still while capturing our base. I popped out just outside of my minimum, locked, and fired. He didn't have much time to react (but still shouldn't have been standing still... that's suicidal even for a commando pilot).

In both cases - it "over-cored" them. Blew out all three torsos and flooded my screen with "component destroyed" messages.

So... to all you commando pilots out there... don't stand still, or Thor will smash.

That said - I've noticed that there seems to be substantially damage from my C1 (2x LRM 15s) compared to my C4 (2x LRM 20s)... now - that kind of sounds like a no-brainer, at first... and while I haven't bothered to test it in the testing grounds - I have noticed that my C1 seems to be doing far less damage to mechs by comparison to my C4 that is more than the lack of ten missiles can account for.

I'm not sure if it's that AMS has become more popular, lately (and I've been running my C1 much more, since it actually has more than insults to throw at enemies under my minimum) and its effect is more noticable against LRM 15s, or what.

Phingers, on 14 March 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

LRM Cat player here with TAG and 3 lasers....like playing with founder for money.....but its not that LRMS are OP its just bad players getting kited in the open. River City nite I was left against 5 mechs ....Hunchie two cataphracts and two awesomes....they could have capped but chased me...killed each kitting them, none were under 70% and the hunchie was almost 100%...all in the open and just rained on them ...it was op...but no cover and no play to win...just chased me around the water

Had a similar experience on the same map. For whatever reason, people seem to love to chase Catapults into the open water on that map. I don't know what they were thinking... -if- they were thinking. I thought, surely, after the first cataphract got blown to pieces by three salvos of LRM 20s (after they rolled the rest of our team... it was me and two ravens palling around at the end) - the other two following single-file behind would... enact some kind of primitive self-preservation instinct.

Nope. Just kept lumbering toward me.

I figured I would simply run a distraction to keep them from capping and to allow my two ravens to do the sneaky stuff they do best (they were troopers, though, and stuck by my side) - so the final cataphract actually managed to get in under my minimum. We danced a bit, but a large laser from one of the ravens finished him.

It was unfortunate that I was A) running out of ammo and unable to teach the Atlas a lesson (he apparently thought he was invincible and had decided to follow us out into the open water. Sure - he had ECM - but I am a Catapult - he is an Atlas. I could dumbfire into him if all else failed). We point-victoried out of it before I had a chance to thrash their team.

I was just amazed... 8 full salvos of 2x LRM 20s (16x20 = a **** ton or 320, for those of us keeping track) that were just allowed to strike center-mass for full effect.

And I can almost bet that they thought LRMs were completely overpowered.

I mean... what can you say... you can't balance a weapon against stupidity. You could reduce the damage to one point per missile... those guys would have still been boned (Well, other than I probably would have emptied the last of my ammo into the final guy and had to finish him off with my fearsome secondary array of two medium lasers).

[T Hawk]

Tabrias07, on 13 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

This is why I start every game by trying to identify LRM boats. You have to take them out first.

So you are admitting we are actually playing LRMwarrior Online and it needs to change? Good, because that's exactly my opinion, too. This game revolves too much around LRMs. LRMs are a too big and devastating factor. Just like ECM is.

[Skyfaller]

FrDrake, on 13 March 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

So i finally understand why so many people say LRMs are OP.

Was in a match yesterday in Forest Colony, a few enemies are spotted near the boat so my PUGball wades it's way over to the boat and gets an early kill. Then a larger brawl ensues as the enemy engages us in the boat area. I see an enemy get 2 kills back to back and notice that it's an LRM stalker over on the shoreline shooting into the brawl. I run over and get behind him and start to attack his back (I'm in a Treb 7M, 100 KPH, 2MLAS, 3 SSRM, 1 PPC). This stalker has 2xLRM20, 2xLRM15 and TAG, and that's it. Absolutely no point defense weapons and is entirely at my mercy as my streaks spray across his entire back sections and don't just hit one so I can't focus my fire too well.

In any case, I have all his back armor off and am getting to orange internals when a Raven 3L and a cataphract come to his rescue (maybe on voice comms, maybe just smart players don't know), in any case I can't sit on his rump anymore after they take my arm off, part of the Treb's survivability is speed and I'm a sitting duck working on this guy's rear internals.

The stalker was a good player too, after figuring out he wasn't going to shake me, he made swinging movements but went back to work destroying my allies who were still circle strafing the enemy brawlers in the middle of open terrain. In the end I was 2nd to last to die on my team after the 3L finally chased me down (I had used terrain to lose the phract but didn't have enough armor left to brawl the raven as my PPC was gone and my streaks were then useless, just had the MLAS).

And then 3 of my teammates just start QQing about how OP LRMs were, they couldn't believe how strong etc. etc.

I told my team that the LRM boat had no backup weapons and was a sitting duck if any of them had helped me he would have been out of the game with no problems. If they wanted to run in circles in the middle of open terrain and not kill the LRM guy then it was their fault. No one responded but it struck me that these are the types of people who come here and complain about LRMs, instead of just adjusting their tactics to the situation at hand.

That's one stupid stalker too. I run my 5S with four artemis LRM15s, five med lasers, one TAG, two AMS with plenty of ammo and XL310. Thing is absolute murder machine.

[Mjolnir]

Xenosphobatic, on 13 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You know what, you're right. LRM's aren't op.

They're BORING. Boring to fight against, boring to fight using, and utterly boring to lose to. Move circle to red square, wait, fire, repeat until ammo reserves are gone (sixteen tons of LRMS! HAHA!).


BORING

Only because you're doing it wrong.

If you sit back and fire LRMs, barely moving but for cover, you're a bad LRM boat - you're one of those LRM nubs people are talking about.

I consider myself a good LRM boat. I get out into the battlefield and harass my enemies. I work cover and range, scraping every meter I can to get the enemy outside my minimum range, where I spray them with TAG and rocket 60 LRM missiles into their core.

It means I have to keep mobile and moving, it means I need to think about what I'm doing and what my team are doing, and it means it's a hell of a lot more fun.

[Mavairo]

Rebas Kradd, on 13 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I'm all about adapting to tactics, but I will say this: when your opponent has 4 or 5 LRM boats camped out near their base with wide expanses of open territory in between them and you, cover won't help you - because it isn't there. Every map currently has this problem. Even River City boaters can force this problem by sticking to open water, though snipers have a better chance of dealing with them there.

The water is a death trap for LRM honestly. Or for anyone. All you have to do to kill LRM boaters that are in the water is to shoot from the buildings on the sides.

Caustic is really the biggest ''offender'' for LRMs and even that can be limited if you play your cards right.

People dying to LRM die for 3 reasons, 1 a lack of situational awareness or bad scouting, or 2, because they stand there go ''derp derp derp I R going to charge them out of cover derp!" or 3, lack of map knowledge.

Dying to LRMs is just like losing because of an early cap.
You lost and died because of your own failings.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 March 2013 - 07:53 AM.

[jper4]

Tabrias07, on 13 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

This is why I start every game by trying to identify LRM boats. You have to take them out first.

the only problem with that comes around when you start attacking the lrm boat and the srmcat standing nearby opens up on you

[Mjolnir]

Tanar, on 16 March 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

the only problem with that comes around when you start attacking the lrm boat and the srmcat standing nearby opens up on you

That's just good teamwork.

[jper4]

Mjolnir, on 16 March 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

That's just good teamwork.

didn;t say it wasn't. just that "kill the lrm boats first" isn;t as simple as it sounds.