85 replies to this topic

[Monky]

Terror Teddy, on 13 March 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

interesting, so my 20% hit ratio with crazy damage lrm5's might be somewhat wrong.

From what I'm seeing in live and training matches, the 'extra' damage doesn't count as a hit or damage in your stats - it's literally numbers that only affect the enemy mech, the reports we see aren't picking it up. My guess is the 'splash' damage isn't treated as being spawned by you, so it doesn't assign it to you as having fired it or having hit with it.

Edited by Monky, 13 March 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[FrupertApricot]

Well missiles have two health so if I dumped my 4 laser alpha into them id kill off about 5 probably. that'd help in addition to AMS systems for if i need to charge an LRM mech.

[OneEyed Jack]

First, not even close to the longest range weapon in the game. Base range, yeah, but plenty of weapons will do good damage way past the 1km auto-destruct range of LRMs.

Second, "just" sustaining a lock requires someone to maintain LOS, have the target slected in the first place, not be dodging in/out of cover and for there not to be any enemy ECM at either end. That's not always as easy as it sounds.

Third, it requires more than "just" a lock because it gives the target a flashing sign and audio warning that he's being shot at, usually in plenty of time for him to take cover, splashing your missiles across a hill or building. Imagine if firing a Gauss at someone gave them a 5 second warning that they should seek cover before it hit.

[Merky Merc]

Yes they're a bit stupid.
Yes ECM was an incomplete solution.
Yes AMS is a waste of space in the face of LRM80s.
Yes you will learn to enjoy dry humping a rock while the INCOMING MISSILES flashes on your screen.

Ok so that last part isn't true, but I've been trying to play with my medium mechs and I have to spend 70% of each match waiting for the damned boats to run out of ammo or be distracted by shiny objects or whatever.

[Furmansky]

I think I will just start another LRM thread just for fun. I don't get it, how many is it now?

SnakeTheFox, on 13 March 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

I don't know how it occurs to anyone as balanced to give the longest ranged weapon in the game and can track targets outside of visual range, which also happens to track targets automatically and thus requires nothing but a sustained lock, a burst DPS and sustainable DPS far in excess of anything else in the game. Good balance is not "let's make something really powerful and then tailor everything else to work around it".

It is a not longest range weapon, PPC's, Gauss, ER L Lasers, all AC's without AC20 have better range...
They can not track target... you still need to keep a target in lock, and this is a big difference... outside of visual range? NO someone has to have target in sights, and even then you need to maintain lock, when in battle not always is possible. To add if I am in a fight with LRM 15 as a support weapon, many times I had to make a choice of dropping lock cause of other target I could hit wit my main weapons. IT has the biggest DPS only on paper nothing more... it is only one weapon system that that I have with hit rate bellow 50%.

And still after around 80 played games I think I was possibly killed by LRMS on just 2 occasions.

[Bagheera]

Magicbullet141, on 13 March 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

tone back the damage from 1.8 to 1.3. The tabletop value of 1 does not work and 1.8 is too damn high!

They were somewhere in that neighborhood in closed beta. They were functionally irrelevant at that damage value.

[Thunder Child]

LRMs are OP. I killed 3 people running 2 LRM 10s on my Raven 3L. And EVERYONE knows that as soon as something is associated with a 3L, it is OP. Now if only I could manage to kill someone with flamers on my 3L....

[Devillin]

Immelmann, on 13 March 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

i have noticed that LRMs ONLY hit center torso. i look at my damage taken and it is usually a LOOOOOONG list of LRMs that ONLY hit CT. all my other armor is yellow, but there lies my mech, smoldering, with no CT thanx to LRMs.

I've seen LRMs hit light mechs mostly in the legs, and mediums have been hit anywhere from the arms to the torsos. I've dodged missile strikes in my Atlas RS. Think about it. In An Atlas. If they are always hitting you in the CT, then you aren't moving or using cover.

Quote

in addition, how are these people getting INSTANT lock? guy looks at me for 1 sec and a plethora of LRMs are already on the way.

If they are like me, they either have someone tagging you, or they saw you and fired using their Mark One Eyeball before their sensor got a lock. Also, if you fire just before you get a solid lock, Artemis missiles will still track on your target lock if you have LOS. So tagging, you can't do anything about other than kill the tagger. But the other two mean you aren't moving enough.

Oh, and I forgot about the bonus ranges from Beagle and the sensor modules. Those help a lot when someone has ECM.

[Draal Kaan]

Basically i don't want to these LRM OP OMG postings as long as there a few people in EVERY match that are crossing the open with about 60 kph or something and are heading to me straight.... giving me any advantage i need to bomb them into oblivion.
There are D-DCs walking Caustic, getting tagged and catching salvo after salvo while heading my way... Afterwards, they are expressing their surprise in the chat (i chose a polite metaphor here^^).

I am an average player in a Catapult. I just use my two LRM15s with TAG and Artemis.
Before ECM i rarely got LOS.. Everyone was covering and sneaking upon me to rip my Catapult to pieces.
Nowadays most people are just walking around and complaining about the rain.

By the way, ECM is ok too. *hrhr*

Edited by Draal Kaan, 14 March 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[sarkun]

SnakeTheFox, on 13 March 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

1) The map is closed off enough to make getting in close under cover a possibility. Most maps are very open at the moment, however. And for those maps with varying terrain, the closed areas are usually just avoided by the LRM boats and their escorts altogether.

I don't seem to be playing the same game as you do. River City? Forest Colony? Frozen City? Those are open maps?

[Ralgas]

Immelmann, on 13 March 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

in addition, how are these people getting INSTANT lock? guy looks at me for 1 sec and a plethora of LRMs are already on the way.

Tag + artemis will do that, cost the launcher -
1 las spot (can be on a spotter but it has to be held on you)
1 ton and a slot per lrm (and has to wear the same on any srm's mounted)
has to have you in sight to get full benefits (artemis only increases lock speed in los)

you could have the longer lock, but he'd have another 3-5 ton of ammo to launch and wouldn't have to poke out from cover to improve any

[Corwin Vickers]

OP sucks and needs to L2P. Until he realizes this any weapon that kills him will be OP.

So tired of these people who can't do the simplest of tactics like use cover, keep moving when out of cover, and walking sideways towards fire. News flash, if you walk straight at someone they are going to hit you a lot, of course you don't care because you are busy alpha striking all of your weapons thinking you are a god.

[Jay Kerensky]

SnakeTheFox, on 13 March 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

But I will be. LRMs need to be toned back, and don't say "hug ECM" because that's not something everyone can rely on in pugs; you either get someone with it, or you don't. The other canned response is usually along the lines of "LRMs require teamwork to be viable" which is basically akin to saying "just hope the other team is stupid"; also not something to bank on as a winning strategy (necessarily).

I run two builds primarily at the moment: a slow, long range gaussphract and a fast(ish) short range hunchback 4SP. Two totally different sets of strengths, weaknesses, and overall playstyles. And yet, there is literally nothing I fear more, in either of these builds, than LRMs. And I'm not even necessarily talking LRM boats here; anything with 15+ LRMs is literally the most dangerous opponent on the map for me.

Now, it's certainly easy enough to spit out anecdotal "well I usually just get close to them herp derp minimum range", but that strategy (like many overly-simplistic counters) is very frequently nonviable; a single escort or two can make an LRM boat untouchable by any force of equal tonnage, except under one (or more) of these three conditions:

1) The map is closed off enough to make getting in close under cover a possibility. Most maps are very open at the moment, however. And for those maps with varying terrain, the closed areas are usually just avoided by the LRM boats and their escorts altogether.

2) You have ECM.

3) You have more LRMs.

I don't know how it occurs to anyone as balanced to give the longest ranged weapon in the game and can track targets outside of visual range, which also happens to track targets automatically and thus requires nothing but a sustained lock, a burst DPS and sustainable DPS far in excess of anything else in the game. Good balance is not "let's make something really powerful and then tailor everything else to work around it".

Fin.

[SnakeTheFox]

Monky, on 13 March 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

There is currently a known bug with all missile weapons that was uncovered today, the thread is in the patch feedback section now. Basically, missiles splash, but it is triple dipping back onto the original part hit, on top of dealing full damage to the splashed section. It's all sorts of crazy how that got through.

Wow, so in post NUMERO UNO the missiles are shown to be literally bugged into causing excess damage... and yet the thread has still gone 2 pages with people arguing over whether they're balanced or not... just wow.

BloodyProphecy, on 13 March 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

lol, learn to use cover man

Davers, on 13 March 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but you are just not using cover.

See point 3 and post #2.

Davers, on 13 March 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Why do I have the feeling that the OP will be 'that guy' complaining about airstrikes too

If they're well and truly broken, yeah I'll probably be "that guy" again, why? Certainly better than being the "EVERYTHING IS FINE NOTHING NEEDS TO BE BALANCED EVERYONE IS JUST BAD" deliberate contrarian, that's for sure.

sarkun, on 14 March 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

I don't seem to be playing the same game as you do. River City? Forest Colony? Frozen City? Those are open maps?

I don't seem to have the same definition of "most" as you do. When I say it, I mean to imply "the majority"; not "each and every single one".

[Dr Leech]

MischiefSC, on 13 March 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Just started an RS with 2x ALRM20s and 4xLLs. It's so much easier than my brawling D-DC. Less skill required, less difficult to do damage with. I play at an Elo level with premade teams most the time so it's not that I'm in the steering wheel underhive. They're just easier. Tons of damage and I don't even have tag. don't need it. Follow your brawlers at about 280 meters or so and just ROFLSTOMP the poor ******** who come out. It's best to not use them at all until the enemy closes or your team closes with them so they get away from cover. I LRMed down an ECM Atlas today, like my 3rd match. I'm not even good with LRMs. All the people talking about how they just use cover and LRMs are no problem.... I bet they get LRMed down all the time. That or they play at an Elo level I never ever enteract with and I drop in pugs with Broceratops and some other top flight folks sometimes. I'm not in the elite but at least I get pulled in as their filler when the matchmaker struggles. I die all the time when that happens but still. I'm not in the pit of despair at least. LRMs are not 'easy mode'. They are however a hell of a lot easier than sniping or brawling. Even SSRMs require you to get into brawling range. I get that you have to position yourself, use cover, etc. You have to do that when brawling or sniping too - just you have to do it while dancing with the enemy in the front lines. ECM/missile balance is broken. Please fix it. Please.

Hello MischiefSC,

how can you put 2x ALRM20 in an Atlas RS ?!

Wish you well ;P

[Iron Hyena]

I hate you to be that guy too. OP

[LordDante]

SnakeTheFox, on 13 March 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

But I will be. LRMs need to be toned back, and don't say "hug ECM" because that's not something everyone can rely on in pugs; you either get someone with it, or you don't. The other canned response is usually along the lines of "LRMs require teamwork to be viable" which is basically akin to saying "just hope the other team is stupid"; also not something to bank on as a winning strategy (necessarily).

I run two builds primarily at the moment: a slow, long range gaussphract and a fast(ish) short range hunchback 4SP. Two totally different sets of strengths, weaknesses, and overall playstyles. And yet, there is literally nothing I fear more, in either of these builds, than LRMs. And I'm not even necessarily talking LRM boats here; anything with 15+ LRMs is literally the most dangerous opponent on the map for me.

Now, it's certainly easy enough to spit out anecdotal "well I usually just get close to them herp derp minimum range", but that strategy (like many overly-simplistic counters) is very frequently nonviable; a single escort or two can make an LRM boat untouchable by any force of equal tonnage, except under one (or more) of these three conditions:

1) The map is closed off enough to make getting in close under cover a possibility. Most maps are very open at the moment, however. And for those maps with varying terrain, the closed areas are usually just avoided by the LRM boats and their escorts altogether.

2) You have ECM.

3) You have more LRMs.

I don't know how it occurs to anyone as balanced to give the longest ranged weapon in the game and can track targets outside of visual range, which also happens to track targets automatically and thus requires nothing but a sustained lock, a burst DPS and sustainable DPS far in excess of anything else in the game. Good balance is not "let's make something really powerful and then tailor everything else to work around it".

Fin.

[Yokaiko]

sarkun, on 14 March 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

I don't seem to be playing the same game as you do. River City? Forest Colony? Frozen City? Those are open maps?

Must be be one of the career water walkers, the guys that HAVE to go into the wide open spaces on the maps without ECM, back-up, cover and in the face of sniper fire and multiple LRM boats.

Edited by Yokaiko, 14 March 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Blackadder]

LRM's probably need to be toned down, but the main issue is ECM still. Currently LRM's are great for rolling new players, which is bad for the game to be honest. However, if you use LRM's or any lock on missile you essentially play craps at PGI's version of Las Vegas. WIth the random nature of public matches, sometimes you can do well, but many times you will be rendered useless when you face ECM.

Personally, the only time i die to LRM's is when i do something stupid, or when the match is already decided because half my team stands around in the open getting spammed, and refuses to close range to render missile boats ineffective. that said, i can see where the LRM spam some players prefer is going to be bad for players who lack the knowledge about how easy they are to counter.

The main issue with MWO though, is still that this game, has devolved to be about one item, and that item is ECM.

[Devillin]

Dr Leech, on 14 March 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

Hello MischiefSC,

how can you put 2x ALRM20 in an Atlas RS ?!

Wish you well ;P

Probably meant either 2 LRM20, or 2 ALRM15.