550 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

If you want real life comparisons.

MG M62 20mm gat
AC2 76mm/63 (it has like 16km range)
AC5 Navy 5'/64 (18 Km effective)
AC10 Navy 8"55 (36km effective)
AC20 Navy 16'/50 I don't feel like doing the division, its 25 nautical miles effective range. Fun fact, the fire control computers had to take the Earth's rotation into account for the firing solution.

That is strictly by weight.

James Griffin, on 15 March 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

the gau 8 IS NOT a machine gun it is a rotary autocannon class 2

the Browning M2 is a machine gun why don't you understand this

You undestand that there is functionally NO difference between an auto-cannon and a machine gun, again, they NOT mutually exclusive terms.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 March 2013 - 06:43 AM.

[stjobe]

Yokaiko, on 15 March 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

You undestand that there is functionally NO difference between an auto-cannon and a machine gun, again, they NOT mutually exclusive terms.

Buh-buh-but... Dems gots diff'ren' names! Dems no de saym!

[Hou]

Mahws, on 15 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I've not heard a single good argument against buffing machine gun damage. It's either a lack of understanding of Real Life or a lack of understanding of game mechanics.

Ahem. As buffing MGs would be counterproductive to MC sales, unless you would like to disagree with my basic argument as laid out earlier, I would tender that thinking MGs "should" or "are" going to be rebalanced is a lack of understanding of Real Life and Game Mechanics.

That isn't trying to be mean btw, I couldn't figure out why the balance was so bad for the longest time either, until I just thought about it like a realist not somebody running a tabletop campaign.

[Critical Fumble]

Esplodin, on 15 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Besides, if we wanted realism - why not this in game?

http://en.wikipedia....clear_device%29

Congratulations, that's the scariest thing I've seen all week.

Although I now now where that spring loaded nuke launcher in Fallout came from.

Hey, also, one of the upcoming Jagermech variants is supposed to be an AA platform. Maybe the devs should nerf their AC/2's damage and add in crit boost to keep it in line with cannon[/trololololololololololol]

Hou, on 15 March 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Ahem. As buffing MGs would be counterproductive to MC sales, unless you would like to disagree with my basic argument as laid out earlier, I would tender that thinking MGs "should" or "are" going to be rebalanced is a lack of understanding of Real Life and Game Mechanics.

That isn't trying to be mean btw, I couldn't figure out why the balance was so bad for the longest time either, until I just thought about it like a realist not somebody running a tabletop campaign.

You could be right, but coolant flush is hilariously overpriced for what you get. I doubt that they'd actually make that much money off the things, even if they doubled heat.

[MustrumRidcully]

RG Notch, on 15 March 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I'm just curious for all the real world weapon folks... if the MWO MG is equivalent of the GAU 8 auto cannon, why is it ok for it to have 90m range while the GAU 8 range is 1200M for effective and 3600m max?

Indeed. In the real world, there is not even a machine gun that can only fire 90ms.

Quote

If you want a useless weapon support the status quo because you think we don't need more viable systems. If you want damage buffed so MGs are a valid choice then argue that. Real world or fluff from the board game is pointless.

Pretty much.
Either you want a useless weapon stay useless.
Or you really believe that the crit system is making this weapon useful.
Or you think the weapon is useless but you want it be useful.

The key thing to remember is - a Spider with 4 ballistic slots can only hope to fill them if it utilizes Machine Guns. If it's not expected to fill them, it doesn#t need 4 ballistic slots. If it is expected tof ill them, we have to realize that the Machine Guns will be the Spider's primary weaponry, since it has neither the hard points nor the weight to load much more.

[Hou]

Critical Fumble, on 15 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

You could be right, but coolant flush is hilariously overpriced for what you get. I doubt that they'd actually make that much money off the things, even if they doubled heat.

They might need to tweak it around if it doesn't sell. Either way, prime MC customers are not the casual though they certainly need to be targeted. Prime MC customers are the hardcore - and with the removal of R&R they desperately need to put in a CBill sink that will be used by the hardcore as ever growing numbers of them are capping out on their desired Mechbays/variants/exp and are accruing massive amounts of basically now not-useful CBills. In order to do that the most effective game strategies must always incentivize continued use of things that are available for purchase directly(or through convenience) of MC. Expect further tweaking of highly effective high heat loadouts that give a slight, but meaningful, edge to builds that regularly consume coolant flushes and the like.

Edited by Hou, 15 March 2013 - 07:09 AM.

[Sifright]

Still not one good reason for why the MG shouldn't be buffed.

Every reason given so far is due to "RL LOL"

Or

"I DONT UNDERSTAND THE GAME AND THINK 0 COOLDOWN IS TOTALLY RAD"

[armyof1]

It is pretty strange really why they'd refuse to make a lighter Ballistic be actually useful. There are quite a few variants of chassis that have way too many ballistic hardpoints (while missing out on more useful hardpoints like energy) for their weight limit right now, and those variants really need a buff to not be the way inferior variant of that chassis and to have a decent weapon that would actually make use of those ballistic hardpoints would solve it. I just don't get it really, maybe they think they'd sell less Hero mechs if too many variants would be useful?

Edited by armyof1, 16 March 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Xando Parapasu]

I guess it depends on what you want the MG buffed to? It is a small (comaratively) Balistic weapon. Its closest realative is 5.5 tons larger than it is. So putting it in to perspective how strong do you want a ballistic pea shooter to be? There is no (good) reason a 0.5 ton weapon should do damage equal to a 6 ton weapon!

[armyof1]

Xando Parapasu, on 16 March 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I guess it depends on what you want the MG buffed to? It is a small (comaratively) Balistic weapon. Its closest realative is 5.5 tons larger than it is. So putting it in to perspective how strong do you want a ballistic pea shooter to be? There is no (good) reason a 0.5 ton weapon should do damage equal to a 6 ton weapon!

Why not start with something I find quite reasonable, like 1 DPS so it compares to a small laser? It'll have the same heat as the laser, and change the ammo consumption as it should probably run out faster due to the higher damage. I can't see how that would be such a great weapon, but at least it would be a bit useful.

[Commander Kobold]

Hou, on 15 March 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Ahem. As buffing MGs would be counterproductive to MC sales, unless you would like to disagree with my basic argument as laid out earlier, I would tender that thinking MGs "should" or "are" going to be rebalanced is a lack of understanding of Real Life and Game Mechanics.

That isn't trying to be mean btw, I couldn't figure out why the balance was so bad for the longest time either, until I just thought about it like a realist not somebody running a tabletop campaign.

never played TT in my life, still don't see why MGs should get a dmg boost

[Terror Teddy]

Xando Parapasu, on 16 March 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I guess it depends on what you want the MG buffed to? It is a small (comaratively) Balistic weapon. Its closest realative is 5.5 tons larger than it is. So putting it in to perspective how strong do you want a ballistic pea shooter to be? There is no (good) reason a 0.5 ton weapon should do damage equal to a 6 ton weapon!

1. 1/20 the range, this is the main tonnage difference due to things like barrel length and cartridge size.
2. Damage over time instead of instant damage
3. It takes 3 MG's to get to a simialr DPS of a light laser - and the additional tonnage to have ammunition.

A good damage would be 1,5-2 DPS since you are so very dependant on ammunition and light mechs dont have that much tonnage to spare.

Unlike energy weapons they cannot "regenerate" ammo through heatsinks because they gain no benefit from them.

I have no problem with MG's being slightly slower to deliver damage per tonne but they should still have 125-150 damage per tonne and perhaps deliver them in 80 seconds instead of the more common speed of 37,5-50 seconds like other ballistics.

The above would give a DPS of 1,875 second or 0,1875 per bullet instead of 0,04 per bullet.

And unlike energy weapons like for example the swayback there is no way to "boat" these guns due to limited weight and additional ammunition required - not to mention a maximum of 4 known ballistic slots instead of many energy based mechs with 5+ slots.

[Sifright]

Xando Parapasu, on 16 March 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

I guess it depends on what you want the MG buffed to? It is a small (comaratively) Balistic weapon. Its closest realative is 5.5 tons larger than it is. So putting it in to perspective how strong do you want a ballistic pea shooter to be? There is no (good) reason a 0.5 ton weapon should do damage equal to a 6 ton weapon!

Don't compare it to its larger cousin.

Every weapon apart from the SRMs and LRMS gets worse in terms of efficiency as you go up into more powerful and damaging weapons.

The MG is the only weapon in the game in which the opposite is essentially true.

The AC/2 does 10 times the damage of the MG at 8 times the range with double the damage per tonne of ammo. at only 12 times the weight.

Lets see how the medium laser stacks up to a larger laser.

Medium laser
5 damage
1 tonne
4 heat
1 slot
270M range

Large laser
9 damage
5 tonnes
7 heat
2 slots
450m range

So the large laser takes twice the slots, 5 times the weight, 1.7 times as much heat for less than double the damage. At 1.6 times the range.

were the AC/2 To follow that progression it would do

0.075 damage a shot
9 shots per second

weighting in at two and half tonnes

At 165 meters range
taking twice the slots

[Terror Teddy]

Omni 13, on 16 March 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

never played TT in my life, still don't see why MGs should get a dmg boost

Because unlike ALL other weapons they took from the boardgame they buffed to TWICE their normal damage but for THIS particular weapons they made it do HALF of what the others do.

Read the first post to get the facts.

[Sifright]

armyof1, on 16 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Why not start with something I find quite reasonable, like 1 DPS so it compares to a small laser? It'll have the same heat as the laser, and change the ammo consumption as it should probably run out faster due to the higher damage. I can't see how that would be such a great weapon, but at least it would be a bit useful.

because small lasers don't risk ammo explosions ruining their day nor do they require you to maintain reticle lock to do that dps.

even at 1dps the small laser will be objectively superior in every way.

it would take 1.5dps before the MG becomes a thought provoking choice instead of trash that you ignore and choose a different mech because of.

[Tennex]

vulcan anyoneE?

[Yokaiko]

Terror Teddy, on 16 March 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Because unlike ALL other weapons they took from the boardgame they buffed to TWICE their normal damage but for THIS particular weapons they made it do HALF of what the others do.

Read the first post to get the facts.

IN TT AC2 two damage MG 2 damage.

In MWO AC2 .....4 DPS MG 0.44 dps dafuq

[Sifright]

Yokaiko, on 16 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

IN TT AC2 two damage MG 2 damage.

In MWO AC2 .....4 DPS MG 0.44 dps dafuq

You gave your mg 10% more dps than it actually has le gasp!

[Yokaiko]

Sifright, on 16 March 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

You gave your mg 10% more dps than it actually has le gasp!

meh bad

Something about single malt whiskey and giving no ****.

[Team Leader]

If you guys are pro machine guns check out the link in my sig