550 replies to this topic

[CMGrendel]

Please stop with the "real world comparisons". It's idiotic. It's like listening to 5 year old children argue as to whose dad is stronger than the other dads.

The only possible criteria for consideration is balance within the game of MWO. Anything else is just a sideshow populated by clowns.

[M4rtyr]

CMGrendel, on 16 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Please stop with the "real world comparisons". It's idiotic. It's like listening to 5 year old children argue as to whose dad is stronger than the other dads.

The only possible criteria for consideration is balance within the game of MWO. Anything else is just a sideshow populated by clowns.

LOL, well said.

But MG's are pretty useless, almost as useless as flamers. But then in TT they were usless outside the Solaris rules where they were amazing.

[Phoenix Gray]

Now THIS is a machine gun...

http://tinyurl.com/bx9wfzz

[moneyBURNER]

I think 2 DPS for MGs would be a bit too lethal in actual gameplay. For example, 4MG spiders would be able to absolutely shred preoccupied enemies, even only in spurts of a few seconds (40 damage in 5 seconds).

The supposed disadvantage of the 100% uptime requirement is actually a huge strength because as damage is streamed continuously, it makes the most of opportunities when the enemy is not able to return fire, whether by it being outmaneuvered or having to cool down, and there's no wait between shots to deal the final death-blow. MGs would also be a very forgiving weapon because missed shots would be of little consequence with the ability to immediately apply more damage.

IMO, tripling the damage output to 1.2 DPS would be about the right value to make machine guns a passable complimentary weapon, and effective in some cases as a main weapon when boated.

[Heeden]

moneyBURNER, on 16 March 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think 2 DPS for MGs would be a bit too lethal in actual gameplay. For example, 4MG spiders would be able to absolutely shred preoccupied enemies, even only in spurts of a few seconds (40 damage in 5 seconds).

The supposed disadvantage of the 100% uptime requirement is actually a huge strength because as damage is streamed continuously, it makes the most of opportunities when the enemy is not able to return fire, whether by it being outmaneuvered or having to cool down, and there's no wait between shots to deal the final death-blow. MGs would also be a very forgiving weapon because missed shots would be of little consequence with the ability to immediately apply more damage.

IMO, tripling the damage output to 1.2 DPS would be about the right value to make machine guns a passable complimentary weapon, and effective in some cases as a main weapon when boated.

Stream fire is a mixed blessing - sometimes it's nice to punch someone in the face and run away and other times you want to keep up some constant hurt. That's why my laser-boating Jenners have one weapon set on chain-fire and the other on group.

[Carrioncrows]

moneyBURNER, on 16 March 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think 2 DPS for MGs would be a bit too lethal in actual gameplay. For example, 4MG spiders would be able to absolutely shred preoccupied enemies, even only in spurts of a few seconds (40 damage in 5 seconds).

The supposed disadvantage of the 100% uptime requirement is actually a huge strength because as damage is streamed continuously, it makes the most of opportunities when the enemy is not able to return fire, whether by it being outmaneuvered or having to cool down, and there's no wait between shots to deal the final death-blow. MGs would also be a very forgiving weapon because missed shots would be of little consequence with the ability to immediately apply more damage.

IMO, tripling the damage output to 1.2 DPS would be about the right value to make machine guns a passable complimentary weapon, and effective in some cases as a main weapon when boated.

Then you haven't crunched the numbers.

A small laser has a DPS of 1.
A Beam time of .75 secs
A cycle time of 2.25 secs.
And a Damage of 3.

You only have to hold the beam over the enemy for .75 secs to obtain 3 damage with a small laser.

You would have to hold the machinegun over an enemy for 1.5 secs to obtain 3 damage with a Mgun.

Difference is, small laser is .5 tons, the Mgun is 1.5 tons minimum right now. I would like to them to make 1/2 ton ammo bins personally.

So lets look at 2 small lasers = 2 dps but still only have to hold the beam over the target for 0.75 secs for 6 total damage
A Mgun would have to hold on target for 3 secs to obtain 6 damage and it still weighs 0.5 tons more.

Lets look at 3 small lasers = 3 dps and only have to hold the beam over the target for 0.75 secs for a total of 9 dmg.
A Mgun would have to hold over the target for 4.5 secs to obtain that and during that time the small lasers would have cycled again.

It's a lot more balanced than you think.

[stjobe]

There's also the big issue of weapon diversity:

Energy weapons have 6 different weapons under 6 tons of weight.
Missile weapons have 7 different weapons (including every SRM) under 6 tons of weight.
Ballistic weapons have a single weapon under 6 tons of weight - the MG - and the devs have made this the no-damage crit weapon for no apparent reason. The MG was a standard damage-dealing weapon in BT, and in my opinion it should be in MWO as well.

Depriving lighter 'mechs of a ballistic option is bad design and bad balance, especially when we have 'mechs like the SDR-5K at 35 tons and 4 ballistic, 1 energy hardpoint.

[Symbiodinium]

moneyBURNER, on 16 March 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think 2 DPS for MGs would be a bit too lethal in actual gameplay. For example, 4MG spiders would be able to absolutely shred preoccupied enemies, even only in spurts of a few seconds (40 damage in 5 seconds).

The supposed disadvantage of the 100% uptime requirement is actually a huge strength because as damage is streamed continuously, it makes the most of opportunities when the enemy is not able to return fire, whether by it being outmaneuvered or having to cool down, and there's no wait between shots to deal the final death-blow. MGs would also be a very forgiving weapon because missed shots would be of little consequence with the ability to immediately apply more damage.

IMO, tripling the damage output to 1.2 DPS would be about the right value to make machine guns a passable complimentary weapon, and effective in some cases as a main weapon when boated.

That 40dmg would be spread out over the mech, with a number of rounds missing entirely, unless you're standing still. Keep in mind that "MG boats" would be light mechs that have to get within 90m. If you sit still long enough for a Spider to come within 90m and shoot you in the same component for 5 seconds (meaning it would also have to be standing still and could be 1-shot by many mechs), you deserve to lose that component.

[armyof1]

Carrioncrows, on 16 March 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Then you haven't crunched the numbers.

A small laser has a DPS of 1.
A Beam time of .75 secs
A cycle time of 2.25 secs.
And a Damage of 3.

You only have to hold the beam over the enemy for .75 secs to obtain 3 damage with a small laser.

You would have to hold the machinegun over an enemy for 1.5 secs to obtain 3 damage with a Mgun.

Difference is, small laser is .5 tons, the Mgun is 1.5 tons minimum right now. I would like to them to make 1/2 ton ammo bins personally.

So lets look at 2 small lasers = 2 dps but still only have to hold the beam over the target for 0.75 secs for 6 total damage
A Mgun would have to hold on target for 3 secs to obtain 6 damage and it still weighs 0.5 tons more.

Lets look at 3 small lasers = 3 dps and only have to hold the beam over the target for 0.75 secs for a total of 9 dmg.
A Mgun would have to hold over the target for 4.5 secs to obtain that and during that time the small lasers would have cycled again.

It's a lot more balanced than you think.

Why are you comparing 2-3 lasers to a single MG? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to compare multiple lasers with the same amount of multiple MGs?

[FupDup]

armyof1, on 16 March 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Why are you comparing 2-3 lasers to a single MG? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to compare multiple lasers with the same amount of multiple MGs?

Because of tonnage (an MG weighs 0.5 tons by itself and needs at least 1 ton of ammo to go with it). Small lasers are just 0.5 tons with no ammo required (and the default 10 DHS is probably good enough to keep them running cool).

[Heeden]

armyof1, on 16 March 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Why are you comparing 2-3 lasers to a single MG? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to compare multiple lasers with the same amount of multiple MGs?

stjobe, on 16 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

There's also the big issue of weapon diversity:

Energy weapons have 6 different weapons under 6 tons of weight.
Missile weapons have 7 different weapons (including every SRM) under 6 tons of weight.
Ballistic weapons have a single weapon under 6 tons of weight - the MG - and the devs have made this the no-damage crit weapon for no apparent reason. The MG was a standard damage-dealing weapon in BT, and in my opinion it should be in MWO as well.

Depriving lighter 'mechs of a ballistic option is bad design and bad balance, especially when we have 'mechs like the SDR-5K at 35 tons and 4 ballistic, 1 energy hardpoint.

Also; energy weapons have zero weapons over 7 tons, missiles have one weapon over 7 tons (no SRMs though) and ballistics have 4 weapons over 7 tons.

We need double-PPCs and SRM-18s!

[CMGrendel]

If PGI are still reading these forums, then they are just doing themselves harm. Any thread this stupid must be contagious.

[FupDup]

Heeden, on 16 March 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Also; energy weapons have zero weapons over 7 tons, missiles have one weapon over 7 tons (no SRMs though) and ballistics have 4 weapons over 7 tons.

We need double-PPCs and SRM-18s!

Energy weapons get their extra weight from all of the DHS needed to maintain them.

Missiles...you can just take a whole lot of ammo (I wonder how insane a Splatapult with 2-4 SRM18 would be lol).

[armyof1]

FupDup, on 16 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Because of tonnage (an MG weighs 0.5 tons by itself and needs at least 1 ton of ammo to go with it). Small lasers are just 0.5 tons with no ammo required (and the default 10 DHS is probably good enough to keep them running cool).

Ballistics+ammo always weigh more than lasers though, but generate less heat which could be done for MGs too. The max range should also be increased to 3x90=270m to make it similar to other Ballistics.

[Heeden]

FupDup, on 16 March 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Because of tonnage (an MG weighs 0.5 tons by itself and needs at least 1 ton of ammo to go with it). Small lasers are just 0.5 tons with no ammo required (and the default 10 DHS is probably good enough to keep them running cool).

The internal heat-sinks (assuming DHS of course) can just about cope with the first 3 SLas, any over that require 7 EHS (5 DHS so 5 tons) each to remain heat-neutral, although crit-space will become an issue.

[moneyBURNER]

A DPS of 1.2 for the MG would put it just above the SL, with the advantage of sustained fire with no cooldowns and no extra heat, which is ideal in particular situations, especially for a light that is outmaneuvering/being ignored by an enemy. MGs can be paired with buffed flamers for an effective combination, and would make decent complimentary weapons for mechs on cooldown in brawls.

A DPS of 2 for the MG would make it too effective as a short range weapon on speedy mechs. 4 MGs = 8 DPS, so 24 damage in 3 seconds with no heat, which would be the equivalent damage of 8(!) SL. 8SL (4tons) quickly overheats a light mech with 20DHs and requires a lot of downtime, whereas 4MG with 4 tons of ammo (6tons) could be fired continuously and be hugely advantageous in critical moments.

The ammo limitation and extra weight/space of 2DPS MGs would not bring them into balance with the 'infinite' firing capability of SLs in a 15min game with 8 enemies -- the MG would be far superior in most cases, and threaten the use of autocannons on ballistic boats because it would be more effective to use MGs with lots of ammo and then max out on other weapons and equipment.

[Terror Teddy]

Heeden, on 16 March 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

The internal heat-sinks (assuming DHS of course) can just about cope with the first 3 SLas, any over that require 7 EHS (5 DHS so 5 tons) each to remain heat-neutral, although crit-space will become an issue.

You forget one thing.

Heat neautrality is not what makes SL so much better - You wait for 5-10 seconds between bursts and you STILL do more damage than a continous stream of MG bullets - AND you literally regenerate ammo.

MG's gain no BENEFIT from heatsinks and instead LOOSE their equivalent of heatsinks - their ammo.

CMGrendel, on 16 March 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

If PGI are still reading these forums, then they are just doing themselves harm. Any thread this stupid must be contagious.

Why? Have you READ the thread?

[Carrioncrows]

moneyBURNER, on 16 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

A DPS of 2 for the MG would make it too effective as a short range weapon on speedy mechs. 4 MGs = 8 DPS, so 24 damage in 3 seconds with no heat, which would be the equivalent damage of 8(!) SL. 8SL (4tons) quickly overheats a light mech with 20DHs and requires a lot of downtime, whereas 4MG with 4 tons of ammo (6tons) could be fired continuously and be hugely advantageous in critical moments.

So wait the Cicada-3L and the Spider-5K "MIGHT" be TOO effective?

They are absolutely worthless now. The only way they will be worth their weight is to up the damage of low weight ballistics. That is the Mgun. The Mgun has to be 2DPS or better to be worth taking.

If it does get buffed to 2 DPS, FAN-FREAK-ING-TASTIC!

We now have 2 battlemech variants that can now join the rest of the world instead of sitting in their corner doing nothing.

Lets look at a Spider-5K
Medium pulse, x4 Mguns.
Alpha - 7 damage
DPS - 9.6 dps
weight - 4 tons, with ammo 6 tons if you use x2 tons of ammo for 800 total rounds. (20 secs of ammo for all 4 guns) Honestly you would probably use the full tons of ammo per gun as you should so that's 8 tons (40 secs of fire for all 4 guns)


Lets look at the Jenner-5D
4 medum lasers, 2 srm4's
Alpha - 40 dmg
Dps - 10.34
Wight - 8 tons or 10 tons with x2 tons of ammo for the srm4's.

To use the full dps of this mech you only have to be exposed to 1 sec every 3 secs and under 270m to get full dmg.

To use the full dps of the spider you would have to remain exposed for the entire duration and under 90m to get the full dmg.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 17 March 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Carrioncrows, on 17 March 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

To use the full dps of the spider you would have to remain exposed for the entire duration and under 90m to get the full dmg.

Oh and don't miss when running around inside 90 meters over 130KPH

[Sifright]

moneyBURNER, on 16 March 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think 2 DPS for MGs would be a bit too lethal in actual gameplay. For example, 4MG spiders would be able to absolutely shred preoccupied enemies, even only in spurts of a few seconds (40 damage in 5 seconds).

The supposed disadvantage of the 100% uptime requirement is actually a huge strength because as damage is streamed continuously, it makes the most of opportunities when the enemy is not able to return fire, whether by it being outmaneuvered or having to cool down, and there's no wait between shots to deal the final death-blow. MGs would also be a very forgiving weapon because missed shots would be of little consequence with the ability to immediately apply more damage.

IMO, tripling the damage output to 1.2 DPS would be about the right value to make machine guns a passable complimentary weapon, and effective in some cases as a main weapon when boated.

Okay I have a problem with the middle portion of your post because it's patently not true.

Lets give the example of say the SRM4

It does 2.67 damage per second with 3.75 seconds between shots.

Thanks to it bursting and putting all the damage up front i can now duck behind cover and the enemy wont even know where i was. Come out again a second or two later and smash my missiles into him again.

With the MG i have to sit pretty allowing any one to come up behind me and just blast me away whilst i focus on a component.

1.2DPS still makes the small laser more effective in every way basically.

MGs need ammo and risk ammo explosions. MG have a horrible cone of fire meaning your shots scatter all over the mech where as the SL is pinpoint precision.