463 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Kittenkrusher, on 14 March 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

yes the Cat would still be a boat but it would be the boat it was supposed to be by the same token no lrms for atlas would see it back at the front in the fight where it is supposed to be.

All Atlases come with LRMs stock.

The problem with Splatcats isn't necessarily how many SRMs it carries, but how the SRMs are doing damage. Right now missiles are doing more damage than intended (Paul gave the example of 2 SSRM2s doing 50 damage to a Commando). But the same post also says SRMs are SUPPOSED to do 2.5 PLUS splash- which is way too much in my opinion. If this is how SRMs and SSRMs work, it is probably also how LRMs work. This would explain the popularity of missile weapons- not that people knew and exploited this, but they used them and found them very effective. One SRM6 completely dwarfs 3 medium lasers for damage (in some cases).

Paul Inouye, on 14 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Interesting and very thorough testing by the OP and many kudos for the in-depth write-up.
This problem has 2 levels.

First is that Testing Grounds has quite a few issues when reporting damage and the numbers you're seeing are inflated quite a bit (almost double). We will be addressing this bug and others as Testing Grounds matures over time.

Second, this does NOT eliminate the findings that S-SRMs AND SRMs are doing more damage than intended. This is not due to some top secret, behind your back weapon balancing. It has to do with splash damage, how it was first implemented and the new smaller Mechs coming out.



Here is one of the scenarios described and I've turned on the debug tools to let us see exactly what is going on in terms of hits and damage being done.

The Raven 3L has just fired 1 volley of 2 x S-SRM2 at the Commando 1B. As you can see, the amount of damage done to the Commando does not make sense. There is a total of 51.5 armor being stripped off the Commando. We've been able to reproduce this repeatedly and we're getting an average damage of 12.9 per missile. Quite a bit higher than the intended 2.5 damage per missile plus splash damage.

So what has happened to cause this? Smaller Mechs and more complex geometry than what was available when the splash damage system first went into the game. When SRM splash damage went into the game, there were a total of 4 Mechs available to the playerbase. The Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult and the Atlas. These 4 Mechs have very unique targeting silhouettes and were used to calculate the radius of splash damage per missile. Now what has happened is that the splash damage across smaller Mechs or Mechs with more complex/tighter component positioning are getting hit with more splash damage than intended.

In the image below, you can see how much overlap the damage done to the Commando has and how that it is taking significantly more splash damage than it should.



We are looking at the tuning for these hit locations/splash damage and will update as soon as possible.

[Royalewithcheese]

Omni 13, on 14 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

most back mounted weapons have been replaced on the front of mechs no? and if not change the rear missles to streaks and they'll just circle around to the front

Well, they are streaks, so maybe the clans just want it to look awesome

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 14 March 2013 - 09:38 PM.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

It's not boating that is the issue, it's the lack of figuring out how to beat the boats.

Instead of complaining about boats, try to beat them by recognizing them and play to their weeknesses and build your strengths to do so.

Splatcat - This should be primary target as it can kill anything in 4 well placed alpha's and moves so fast it's hard to hit. Don't get in close to fight it, duh that's what it's designed to do. It has a range of 270m, but it's crap outside of 100m unless running Artemis and then it's either slow or doesn't have enough ammo. Fight it long range or at the very least outside of 100m.

LRM Boats - Flank them, get in behind and kill them, manuver to get inside 180m and your gold! Utilize ECM when you can to close on an LRM boat.

PPC Boat - Again Flank them, get behind them, manuver to get inside 90m and you have them at your mercy. They generate so much heat that if you have a fast mech and use cover they won't be able to one shot you that easily and eventually they overheat and shut down with you on top of them for the kill.

ERPPC Boat - Pretty much the same as PPC Boat, but now it won't matter if you get inside 90m. Just keep moving, keep them missing, and if he's locked on you then your team should be able to kill him. If your alone keep moving and wait for the overheat and shut down and move in for the kill, stay behind him if you can and get good at controlling your mech to stay there.

Poptarts - What goes up must come down! Eventually they will stop moving and it's always when they hit the ground, pick your shots. Notice if it's a PPC or ERPPC build as the 90m mark is your friend for standard PPC builds. If it's a 3D with twin PPC and a gauss get inside 90m and shoot for his gauss then kill him. If it's an ERPPC 3D amputate while in close and kill.

Most players who have issues with this aren't dropping with a team or a group that they are in constant communication with and that is the down fall. The game modes we have are for "TEAM" play and not for individual play. If you want to be a super hero and try to win it alone then I suggest you wait for Solaris Arena game mode. Team play is a must for consistant enjoyment of game play and that fails sometimes due to ELO dropping 700 tons against 500 tons. ELO is broken right now btw.

You talk about stratagy and the lack there of, well my group usually works strategy to for the win, unless we get dropped with 4 puggers against an 8 man sync drop (Damn Squakers) and then we watch the puggers go die faster then we can get to the line or they disregard any suggestions on what we should do to win. My biggest suggestion is to figure things out like I have and to join with a team or group and work together.

[IraqiWalker]

Splash damage aside, since that issue requires more geometrical tuning than anything else.

Boating is not that powerful of a set up. Boating is a tactic much like any other, it has weaknesses and strengths. The main apparent weakness is that boats usually rely on one weapon type. Which means that if an enemy can counter that weapon in any way, shape, or form, the boat is almost useless.

It's just a matter of finding the right strategy. If your enemy is boating LRMs get ECM, and use terrain and structures for cover from salvos, don't run into the middle of the open battlefield and expect to survive by the might of your balls against LRM salvos. On second thought, don't ever do that, no matter their set up.

SRM boats, it's right there in the name of the weapon SHORT Range Missile. First word of taht tactic. Their effective range is 270M, if you see that they are using SRMs, and you STILL charge, well you have no one to blame but yourself. if you stay at a range of 400 you are safe from their damage and you can hit them with impunity.

Direct fire boats, if you are a light/medium mech. You can deal with direct fire boats (PPCs, ACs, and all weapons that require aiming and not lock on) Your speed and maneuverability is your weapon. Plus terrain of course.

In essence boating is a gamble. A person is sacrificing all abilities for the sake of excellence in one and relying on that to beat everything. Once someone circumvents that, the boat is rendered critically ineffective. It is a valid strategy, and it can beat the crap out of any reckless pilot because it relies on punishing the person that enters its domain. Again, fighting LRMs rely on cover and ECM. if you do not use either/both LRMs will chew you out and end your brief and negligent existence in an expedited fashion. On the other hand, if you do use the counter tactic you can kill the boat and receive little to no punishment in return.


I recall in one of my matches we ended up facing a team that had an LRM lance. 4 mechs with nothing but LRMs. They would have slaughtered us with ease on Alpine peaks. However, our team (comprised of random people) stuck together, relied on a great cloud of ECM and 2 light commando 2Ds that hunted/ chased away enemy scouts to render their LRMs useless, and thereby rendering 4 of their mechs useless. That turned the tide from fair fight to 4v8. We only had the 2 commandos and 1 Atlas with ECM, and that's what got us the win.

Sun Tzu wrote in his Art of War : "If you know your enemy and know yourself, you will be victorious in every battle" (obviously that's only half the statement, but it gets the point across. If you don't analyze what your opponent is doing, and just charge headlong hoping to achieve victory, or in the case of many who just aim to get a few kills, you will die, and by god you will die some more.

End of the day, this is a game of tactics, and if you ignore them, you will suffer.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 March 2013 - 09:40 PM.

[Eddrick]

Two more missile heavy Mechs in BattleTech are the Longbow-13C which has six sets of missiles and so does the Yeoman-10-OR.

Both could swap the existing missiles and do the exact same thing the Catapult-A1 does.

Also, speaking of the Catapult. The H2 has 8 Rocket Launchers.

Quote

CPLT-H2 - A Periphery upgrade of the Catapult based upon the K2, the H2 carries a PPC, two Medium Lasers, and eight Rocket Launcher 20s

Edited by Eddrick, 14 March 2013 - 09:46 PM.

[Davers]

IraqiWalker, on 14 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Splash damage aside, since that issue requires more geometrical tuning than anything else.

I am not sure we can discount splash damage from this argument. When an A1 has an alpha strike of 464.4, it kinda changes things a little, right?

We can't have a real discussion about how boating effects things in game until the weapons are performing as intended in game.

Edited by Davers, 14 March 2013 - 09:54 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TexAss, on 14 March 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...03#entry2033603

I made a similar topic recently.

I hope something happens and the devs adress it.

yes, me too, I hope they address it by saying "boating is part of TT deal with it"

[IraqiWalker]

armyof1, on 14 March 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I've made plenty of points, but all you're doing is asking me to single-handedly fix the the boating issue for PGI, and if I can't do it then I have no right to claim there is something wrong, since I can't "prove" it unless I can describe in detail how it should be fixed. I mean that is just ridiculous, but then again demanding ridiculous things is one of those classic easy way outs to win an argument.

I apologize if my intrusion is unwelcome, however I think this needs to be said.

That's not his point at all. You made a general complaint about boating being bad and a problem. Okay, so you see that there is an issue with boating. Fine. However, boating is such a vast area we need you to help us figure out where the problem is. Right now, if this was a drop and we were your team, you are basically telling us "there are enemies on the map." Okay, where exactly are they? D4? G7? A1? Just narrow down your analysis. Be a bit more pinpoint. We don't need you to pull outa chart with the exact specific data of every kilobyte related to this issue, just a general direction like "They are on the 7 line" Sure, that's a massive area, but it's a hell of a lot smaller than "the whole map". Is it specific weaponry? Is it how boats are used in certain maps? In Alpine Peaks LRM boats tend to do a whole lot better than in the city map where the buildings render LRMs almost useless.

Help us understand your point better. No one is trying to ridicule or ignore your argument. We're trying to figure out what exactly we are arguing about here. That's usually the first step to solving an argument in a sensible manner. So before you press your points, first help us understand what they are exactly. To you they probably seem clear. To us, on the other hand, not so much. We are not inside your head or coming from the same experience you have had. That's why we need your help to clear the fog of confusion and misunderstanding. That way we can solve this reasonably. We might even end not disagreeing completely with no room for budging, but we'd at least do it knowing and understanding full well each side's claims.

Right now, the ball is in your court, it's your move to explain your vision to us, then we can react to that, conduct this argument in a gentleman-like manner.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Boating isnt a "vision of the game" problem. Its not even a problem.
I agree, there SHOULD be a "stock mech mode" then they can drop and realize there are still boats to deal with and maybe stop the complaining about boats

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 March 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Davers, on 14 March 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I am not sure we can discount splash damage from this argument. When an A1 has an alpha strike of 464.4, it kinda changes things a little, right?

We can't have a real discussion about how boating effects things in game until the weapons are performing as intended in game.

I understand that and agree with you in that regard. However, the weapons are operating regardless of whether it is how we intended for them or not. What I was focusing on is that splash damage is an issue that for the moment is beyond our control as pilots. It is something that as beta testers we have had to deal with, and that's how we realized that these weapons are dealing more than intended.

What is within our hands though is mastering the tactics that deal with boats, and that seems to be one of the biggest problems I have witnessed on the field. Many pilots do not understand those tactics well.

I personally do not pilot a boat, unless my COM-2D with 1ML and 3 SRM4s counts as a boat. Also, since I pilot a light mech, I am usually the preferred prey of boats. So I had to learn how to deal with them.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 March 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

Read Canon mechs after the Clan Invasion, then get back to us.

[IraqiWalker]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

Boating isnt a "vision of the game" problem. Its not even a problem.
I agree, there SHOULD be a "stock mech mode" then they can drop and realize there are still boats to deal with and maybe stop the complaining about boats

Oh no, that is not the intended meaning of my statement. I was talking about him showing us his vision of the problem that he is facing.

[darkfall13]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

yes, me too, I hope they address it by saying "boating is part of TT deal with it"

Ha that's awesome; I don't know much of TT but I do read Sarna when I have questions or people bring topics up and did find a Splat Cat

Quote

Catapult CPLT-C1 Jenny "Butterbee" - The personal ride of MechWarrior Jenny Templeton, this variant of the Catapult replaces the standard arm-mounted LRM-15s with a quartet of SRM-6 missile launchers, two in each arm.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[NocturnalBeast]

Maybe they should just make every mech take 100 shots of any type of weapon before it is destroyed, but you can only shoot each other simultaneously, so everyone dies at the same time after 14 minutes and every game is a tie, Also at the end of the game, everyone should get some happy achievement saying how fair and balanced the game was, and fireworks and stars should shoot all over the screen.

Give me a freaking break, go play some other game where you don't take any damage unless you give permission to the enemy.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

darkfall13, on 14 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Ha that's awesome; I don't know much of TT but I do read Sarna when I have questions or people bring topics up and did find a Splat Cat



And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Look up http://www.sarna.net...oat_BattleMechs hell it has its own section. "Missile boat battlemechs"

[Eddrick]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Look up http://www.sarna.net...oat_BattleMechs hell it has its own section. "Missile boat battlemechs"

You win the thread. I don't think anyone can beat or even argue against that.

[SpiralRazor]

Ahh....The Viking...

2 LRM 15s

2 LRM 20s

all with Artemis:)

[Mackman]

SpiralRazor, on 14 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Ahh....The Viking...

2 LRM 15s

2 LRM 20s

all with Artemis:)

Yeah, but... but... the Viking is only piloted by stupid mechwarriors. Real mechwarriors deliberately handicap themselves, because... because I said so, that's why!

[IraqiWalker]

SpiralRazor, on 14 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Ahh....The Viking...

2 LRM 15s

2 LRM 20s

all with Artemis:)

Beautiful mech, I am trying to recreate that with some Catapults. It still has the problem of ECM and close range kill it. Then again if anyone gets into close range with you, you're doing it wrong.

[XgamerTONY]

The game would be boring if it addressed boating any further than it has. Boating forces teams to use indirect tactics. Boats are only good at there effective range. We actually need more boating.

In short boating is needed to simplify/adjust role warfare in a team environment.

Lets take ppc's for example, say an entire 8 man team has dual ppc's or even er ppc's (>< ;). They will do massive damage at 600-800m, but they require target tracking, effective range, and unintur'd heat dissipation. Player skill can overcome target tracking and hit connection. Lets assume that this team are deadeyes. Now just like any other game if anyone from our team runs into the open or over a hill presenting a head on target, they get destroyed period. Now unlike normal we're assuming there entire team has ppc's, so theres a very simple solution. Keep your speed up, dont run directly at anyone, use cover and get into brawling range. Did you know the effective dps of a ppc is less than that of a small laser? or even to a medium laser at 400m?
This is only 1 scenario you can effectivly trump any boat using tactics.

In short boating is needed to simplify/adjust role warfare in a team environment.
You wouldent send a team of only rifleman to take down a terrorist would you? How about a full team of only snipers? Both would fail miserably, BUT take half and half even throw in a suppressive fire member, you've got one hellova adaptable/successful team.

Edited by XgamerTONY, 14 March 2013 - 11:07 PM.