463 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

The problem of boating is either a problem of an imbalanced weapon, or a problem of convergence.

Imbalanced Weapons
I a weapon is OP, people boat it because that makes their mech more OP than if they use 3/4 "normal" powered weapons and 1/4 overpowered weapons.

The fix for this is obviously identifying imbalanced weapons and fixing them.

Convergence
Convergence ensures that all your weapons hit the same spot. Convergence even helps mechs that use random-spreading weapons like SRMs - A Splatapult couldn't fire all 6 SRMs at the same target at close range without convergence ,because one arm's SRMs would likely miss the target - or would at least hit the opposite side of that mech.

The best thing that might be done about convergence:
1) Individual weapons do not converge automatically. EIther all weapons fire parallel to each other, or they converge on a single, predetermined point (mech lab option)
2) The arms still converge automagically (they have to, otherwise you cannot possibly aim weapons sensibly), but the weapons inside the arm do not also converge - they just fire parallel to each other and the arms direction.

Now drawbacks like the 4Ps 8 energy slots in a single location also are an advantage - these 8 lasers are close together and will likely all hit the same spot. Compared to a C1s Medium Lasers that are distributed across 3 hit locations, the 4P is almost pinpoint accurate - but losing that torso hurts.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 14 March 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lots of Bla Bla Bla...I'm really pissed off, and not really in the calm mood to write this.
You say there is Boating in the LORE?
Yeah your are absolute right?
But have you just the simple idea how much damage a Viking or a Arctic Fox can deal with a single salvo?
A salvo of 2 LRM 20 and 2 LRM 15 Artemis Guided will cripple or even destroy any mech in MWO when the player knows what he does. Most hits will tear through the torso and done.
In TT all those missiles will spread all over the target...hitting...oh at least in TT there is the possibility that in your 70 LRM salvo a good couple of missiles wont even hit the target.

So boats are a problem - and stop niggle "but they are easie to counter" on their own yes. In teams - are you kidding me?
Boats are a problem because your damn 6 PPC Stalker build is capable to hit the same location in a single blow.... a same build in TT will simple explode...a good part of his PPCs will not even hit the target...and when they hit they will spread the damage all over the target...

Maybe you should take a look into the different game mechanics BEFORE you come back to the game and say again:
boating isn't a problem its allready part of the lore.

[Theevenger]

Kahoumono, on 14 March 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

Diminishing returns on the weapons will do the trick, you wouldn'[t boat ppcs if your forth one does half the damage. Or spike the heat on alpha'ing stacked weapons.

And why exactly should the PPCs do less damage as more are added? This makes absolutely no sense from any common sense standpoint. The only limit to what a vehicle can mount is physical space, weight, and fire control cycles. We have hardpoints, critical slots. Slaving them all to the same target is completely realistic. Your argument does not hold water in any way.

[IraqiWalker]

Karl Streiger, on 14 March 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

So boats are a problem - and stop niggle "but they are easie to counter" on their own yes. In teams - are you kidding me?

THIS IS A TEAM GAME.

If your team fails to counter the enemy they get destroyed, if the enemy fails to counter you they get destroyed. There are 8 people on each side, if you can't co-ordinate properly to take down the enemy you will get shredded.

Saying that boats can be OP because their team protects them, is the same as saying that knives are deadly because they can stab you. Boats are there to provide support and deal massive damage. I don't think people comprehend what the words "Fire Support Unit" mean. It doesn't mean it's a unit that just suppresses the enemy and puts some dents on them. Fire Support Units (FSUs) are designed to be weak in the short range and completely devastating at long range.

They slow the enemy down, and when your front line units pin that enemy down, the FSUs unleash hell from long range and obliterate it. What do you think artillery is? Artillery batteries are FSUs. Howitzers fielded by the dozens in real life don't just slow down tank columns they obliterate them along with entire regiments of infantry, that's their job. They draw back is that they suck in close range and are useless without forward observers and guards.

If an enemy has boats and they don't protect them they are being stupid, and completely ignorant of the most basic of battlefield tactics. Or they are playing a ludicrous gamble that will either give them complete victory quickly, or cause their complete annihilation.

Karl Streiger, on 14 March 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

Boats are a problem because your damn 6 PPC Stalker build is capable to hit the same location in a single blow.... a same build in TT will simple explode...a good part of his PPCs will not even hit the target...and when they hit they will spread the damage all over the target...

Convergence is an issue that we can discuss because it wouldn't make sense for a Stalker's 6 PPCs to all hit you from really close range while it is turning. Since they are fixed in the "ears" and torso. However, from long range, you'd bet your bottom dollar they should all hit you. Any pilot worth his salt would try and aim all cannons at an enemy's vulnerable spot. It makes sense from a logical point of analysis. It is also doable physically.

That's at long range. Short range is where problems should start to surface. Also, having them all converge does seem balanced. If they hit they do devastating damage, if they don't.... then you just gained a ton of heat and dealt no damage to your enemy, who is now probably behind cover and circling around you to kill you.

If you are being hunted by a sniper boat you shouldn't be out in the open for long, that's just common sense. You are supposed to use cover and tactics, and most importantly. Coordinate with teammates, to adapt overcome and achieve victory.

That's the beauty of MechWarrior, tabletop or MWO. In both cases you used your lance to the utmost efficiency while trying to deny your opponent the ability to attack you, because it hurts like hell.


Also, to talk about TT

Rocket Puppy, on 14 March 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

They did a great job trying to stay true to the table top but TT rules don't hold up the real time battles.

Players can aim in real time and are not rolling die to do hit damage.

That says it all.


SIDE NOTE: Talking about missiles isn't going to help much right now, because the main problem with them has been identified. It's their splash damage and the devs are trying to figure out a way to deal with that, and fix it. Also, taking cover is usually a good way to deal missiles. That or I don't know..... using that thing that says "Anti-Missile System" on it. Even if your mech isn't equipped with it, your team should have at least one mech with either that or ECM.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 15 March 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

i understand your arguments or at least i think so.
but every time in game there is the minimum of one cheese build. and every battle with cheese builds is boring.
boring because when the skill of the boat pilot is good he rip the enemy team appart. if the boat pilot is a noob he weakens his team.

so a team consits of 2 A1 and two PPC stalker... how should your team match them effective on maps like forest only chance is an all out assault and maybe to chance to kill the A1 and close or kill the PPC Stalker and stay away and i don't need to consider the other 4?

So because it is my fault not to start in a team with high mobile tag 3L spottern and boating of LRM to counter the combination above?

Well generally speaken when rnemy has better position and firepower i would avoid it.
so game will end after 15min in a tie because i m not willing to get my buddies got killed.

that is not what sounds for me for a interesting day in open beta

[Jay Kerensky]

[TexAce]

I don't think boating is the real problem.

If it would be, everyone would be complaining over the 9 laser Hunchy. Or the 7 laser Awesome.

But how many of them do you see in the field?

Last time I did was a month or two ago, and it was me piloting it.

Edited by TexAss, 15 March 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Lexeii]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 March 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Imbalanced Weapons
I a weapon is OP, people boat it because that makes their mech more OP than if they use 3/4 "normal" powered weapons and 1/4 overpowered weapons.

The fix for this is obviously identifying imbalanced weapons and fixing them.

This.
(only this, don't agree with the convergence stuff... but that thread is a 48 pages monster...)


Exactly what I wanted to say since I started to read this sorry thread.
If a weapon is an amount (x1) stronger than it should be if it were balanced (x0), 8 of them a 8 x1 stronger, that is the only problem with "boating"

To illustrate this:
HBK-4P

This is my personal doubleboat. (I think 2 ERPPC are considered boating?)
Additionally it has 6 SL (that has to be boating, it's 6)...
So is this a problem? (I like to play it... and I will spread it all over the forums till a few more people tell me I'm a ******* *****)

Didn't think so


Edit:
Also of course boats have inherent weaknesses by boating, has been said often enough, is absolutely true. while some things are hard to counter that's not a problem with boating. make a srm cat that goes about 40 km/h and see who get's killed

Edited by Lexeii, 15 March 2013 - 01:32 AM.

[OuttaAmmo NoWai]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

Lel, Catapults not intended for frontline combat?
Look up the K2 variants and below, man --->
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult

Not to mention the game's mechlab system (which is designed to allow players freedom in playstyles) changes the battlefield role of any mech regardless of initial design

[Karl Streiger]

Lexeii, on 15 March 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

This is my personal doubleboat. (I think 2 ERPPC are considered boating?)
Additionally it has 6 SL (that has to be boating, it's 6)...
So is this a problem? (I like to play it... and I will spread it all over the forums till a few more people tell me I'm a ******* *****)

You have 2 weapon types with 2 different range brackets.. don't sound like a boat for me.
Maybe I'm just overcompensating .... raging against boats because of a couple of builds that ****** me off.
Although as you said it is not directly the problem of boats but a problem of game mechanics.

PPCs that were buffed until every noob is able to use them (i want my slow velocity, high heat PPCs back)
maps with good cover favour indirect fire or short range builds
removing of Rearm favouring ammunition wasting builds
of course the convergence issue... making even the doubling of TT armor stats a joke

OuttaAmmo NoWai, on 15 March 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Lel, Catapults not intended for frontline combat?
Look up the K2 variants and below, man --->
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult

Not to mention the game's mechlab system (which is designed to allow players freedom in playstyles) changes the battlefield role of any mech regardless of initial design

Don't remind me....
http://mwomercs.com/...00#entry1856000

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 March 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[Lexeii]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

You have 2 weapon types with 2 different range brackets.. don't sound like a boat for me.
Maybe I'm just overcompensating .... raging against boats because of a couple of builds that ****** me off.
Although as you said it is not directly the problem of boats but a problem of game mechanics.

So by this logic there are no Stalker LRM/SRM(same range bracket) boats if they additionally use medium lasers?

[Karl Streiger]

Lexeii, on 15 March 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

So by this logic there are no Stalker LRM/SRM(same range bracket) boats if they additionally use medium lasers?

I new you would point this weapon at me.
Yes a Stalker that boat 5 medium laser and 4 LRM systems isn't a boat.

[Shadowsword8]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 March 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Imbalanced Weapons
I a weapon is OP, people boat it because that makes their mech more OP than if they use 3/4 "normal" powered weapons and 1/4 overpowered weapons.

The fix for this is obviously identifying imbalanced weapons and fixing them.

That's true. If the weapons being boated are fine, the mechs as a whole should be, too.

Quote

Convergence
Convergence ensures that all your weapons hit the same spot. Convergence even helps mechs that use random-spreading weapons like SRMs - A Splatapult couldn't fire all 6 SRMs at the same target at close range without convergence ,because one arm's SRMs would likely miss the target - or would at least hit the opposite side of that mech.

The best thing that might be done about convergence:
1) Individual weapons do not converge automatically. EIther all weapons fire parallel to each other, or they converge on a single, predetermined point (mech lab option)
2) The arms still converge automagically (they have to, otherwise you cannot possibly aim weapons sensibly), but the weapons inside the arm do not also converge - they just fire parallel to each other and the arms direction.

Now drawbacks like the 4Ps 8 energy slots in a single location also are an advantage - these 8 lasers are close together and will likely all hit the same spot. Compared to a C1s Medium Lasers that are distributed across 3 hit locations, the 4P is almost pinpoint accurate - but losing that torso hurts.

I thought earlier about convergeance, but if you fixed it the way you suggest, not all mechs would be equally affected. Look at the Jagermech vs K2, for example, The Jagermech would be able to pinpoint 2 AC20 shots. The K2 wouldn't.

Or the Atlas-RS with 1 gauss on right torso and 4 PPC on the arms. 55 pinpoint damage, and it would be completely unaffected.

[Necro]

When you need a Boat, ask for the Kraken!

http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

Kraken 1: 10 U/AC2
Kraken 2: 4 U/AC10
Kraken 3: 8 LRM15

Or for Laser:
Supernova: 6 ErLarge Laser

Edited by Necro, 15 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MustrumRidcully, on 14 March 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Convergence
Convergence ensures that all your weapons hit the same spot. Convergence even helps mechs that use random-spreading weapons like SRMs - A Splatapult couldn't fire all 6 SRMs at the same target at close range without convergence ,because one arm's SRMs would likely miss the target - or would at least hit the opposite side of that mech.

You are aware that a splatcat's maximum max damage range is like 50m... Like zombies, the solution is just shoot it in the head. Theyre huge on cats.

Necro, on 15 March 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

When you need a Boat, ask for the Kraken!

http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

Kraken 1: 10 U/AC2
Kraken 2: 4 U/AC10
Kraken 3: 8 LRM15

Or for Laser:
Supernova: 6 ErLarge Laser

or for laser Nova: 12 ER medium laser

[Thunder Child]

Necro, on 15 March 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

When you need a Boat, ask for the Kraken!

http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

Kraken 1: 10 U/AC2
Kraken 2: 4 U/AC10
Kraken 3: 8 LRM15

Or for Laser:
Supernova: 6 ErLarge Laser

Both of those are Clan Mechs, but sure.
May as well add in the Nova Prime as well. 50 ton mech with 12 ER Medium Lasers.

[Odin]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

it doesnt need to address boating, boating is canon to the game.
The whole Catapult line IS a design of boats

Don't confuse canon and boating.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Odin, on 15 March 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

Don't confuse canon and boating.

so sarna is wrong and all those mechs listed in "missile boat mechs" ARENT missile boats?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Viking
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow
http://www.sarna.net...er_%28Baboon%29
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ha_Otoko
http://www.sarna.net..._%28OmniMech%29
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bombardier
cause unless Sarna made those up themselves, boating looks pretty canon to me...

[Odin]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

Only thing I can imagine, is, PGI fears loosing customers, hence the boating. Its ^the not thinking man's way, to play the thinkings man game. If you lake ability or care, you boat. There are so many boats in canon, use them... it would be so easy to stack heat with each added weapon.

MWO is a great game, I think, its the best of all MW games I played. Especially the Mech lab is a good place to come up with something "fitting".

BTW Why trouble with the lab at all, coming up with all cheese?




Odin

[r0land446x]

It's the same discussion as in every similar game (for example WoT): "Oh no, I am hit by arty. Developers, please remove the arty from game or give me the chance to play without it."
I've read here in this thread something like "missile boats ruin the game and there is no strategy possible with (against) these missile boats". I think it's somehow (sorry) stupid to talk about strategy in an 8vs8 arcade game with public mixed battles. It's the same as in WoT, CoD, CSS.. and so on.. jump around, shoot around corners, headshot while jumping, mostly no teamplay.. or stupid rush into enemies.
You better talk about tactics.. but missile boats / arties are very important part in every military tactic.
Many rounds here ends after 5 minutes or something like this. I've seen several assault games, where both teams just running straight to the enemy base (one team left around the other at the right side) and cap as fast as possible. Or coquest games where players say "stick all together".. and then the whole team moves from checkpoint to checkpoint.. holding 1-2 checkpoints and lose because the other team splits up and cap the other checkpoints.
Great strategies (sorry: tactics)!
So.. what about this: Learn to handle enemy missile boats. There are enough objects where you can hide behind (maybe except Alpine - but I love this map). And if more players would use ECM and/or AMS.. and work together in groups.. you would not have the problems you talk about.
Virtual and/or real enemies will never waive weapons which can hurt you effectively!