463 replies to this topic

[Commander Kobold]

r0land446x, on 15 March 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

It's the same discussion as in every similar game (for example WoT): "Oh no, I am hit by arty. Developers, please remove the arty from game or give me the chance to play without it."
I've read here in this thread something like "missile boats ruin the game and there is no strategy possible with (against) these missile boats". I think it's somehow (sorry) stupid to talk about strategy in an 8vs8 arcade game with public mixed battles. It's the same as in WoT, CoD, CSS.. and so on.. jump around, shoot around corners, headshot while jumping, mostly no teamplay.. or stupid rush into enemies.
You better talk about tactics.. but missile boats / arties are very important part in every military tactic.
Many rounds here ends after 5 minutes or something like this. I've seen several assault games, where both teams just running straight to the enemy base (one team left around the other at the right side) and cap as fast as possible. Or coquest games where players say "stick all together".. and then the whole team moves from checkpoint to checkpoint.. holding 1-2 checkpoints and lose because the other team splits up and cap the other checkpoints.
Great strategies (sorry: tactics)!
So.. what about this: Learn to handle enemy missile boats. There are enough objects where you can hide behind (maybe except Alpine - but I love this map). And if more players would use ECM and/or AMS.. and work together in groups.. you would not have the problems you talk about.
Virtual and/or real enemies will never waive weapons which can hurt you effectively!

To be fair LRMs are currently bugged so the QQ (at this point in time) is actually valid
also no thanks we don't need more ECM, I'd rather have my missles shot down my an AMS (or a few) than have to deal with that gosh darned ECM bubble

XgamerTONY, on 14 March 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

In short boating is needed to simplify/adjust role warfare in a team environment.
You wouldent send a team of only rifleman to take down a terrorist would you? How about a full team of only snipers? Both would fail miserably, BUT take half and half even throw in a suppressive fire member, you've got one hellova adaptable/successful team.

if boating is needed to simplify/adjust role warfare in a team environment, then there is a flaw in the games design
(and depending on the situation yes I would just send riflemen they can generally handle any situation given proper equipment)

[Lexeii]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

I new you would point this weapon at me.
Yes a Stalker that boat 5 medium laser and 4 LRM systems isn't a boat.

^^ Ok I'm amused (hope you too)

So a theoretical (dont play cats, don't actually care to use smurfy to create 2) A1 with say 4 lrm15 (however stupid this build may be) would be a boat, a C1 with 4 lrm15 and say a single medium wouldn't?

Karl Streiger: Reine Haarspalterei, ich weiß
Aber hier stoßen wir an das Definitionsproblem das schon vorher erwähnt worden ist.

[Tuku]

These are OP Take this guys lead and stand behind it and the dirty boaters cant destroy you so easy.

[Karl Streiger]

Lexeii, on 15 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

Karl Streiger: Reine Haarspalterei, ich weiß
Aber hier stoßen wir an das Definitionsproblem das schon vorher erwähnt worden ist.

Aber nur so kommt man zur Haarwurzel...des Bösen

As you said - a C4 with same missiles of a A1 and medium laser wouldn't be a boat. What is wrong of course. It is still a boat. But i start to believe that not boating at all is not the real problem.

Is a 9 ML Hunchback a problem? Yes it could become to be a problem because he can deal 45dmg into a single location. However that is actually the same damage i can deal with my AS7-D...at more range (2PPC, Large Pulse and Gauss)
So in a duel i will rip through the armor of those Hunchback before he even close... at short range i have same fire power and more armor. But I'm pretty sure that i will have a hard time to beat two of them at the same time.

I think it does no good...to adresse boats in general. Just point with the finger at them... and hope the devs will cripple them with some good coffee and one or two days of extreme programming...

A1 is a problem...Engine Rating...260max.
Stalker 5M is a problem...Engine Rating 255max.
Stalker 3F with PPC is a problem....cripple heat efficency...nerf PPCs...(yes yes yes - i never understand the changing)

[Odin]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 15 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

so sarna is wrong and all those mechs listed in "missile boat mechs" ARENT missile boats?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Viking
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow
http://www.sarna.net...er_%28Baboon%29
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ha_Otoko
http://www.sarna.net..._%28OmniMech%29
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Catapult
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bombardier
cause unless Sarna made those up themselves, boating looks pretty canon to me...

Off course !

Would love to see boating engineered around them.





Odin

[Commander Kobold]

Lexeii, on 15 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

^^ Ok I'm amused (hope you too)

So a theoretical (dont play cats, don't actually care to use smurfy to create 2) A1 with say 4 lrm15 (however stupid this build may be) would be a boat, a C1 with 4 lrm15 and say a single medium wouldn't?

Karl Streiger: Reine Haarspalterei, ich weiß
Aber hier stoßen wir an das Definitionsproblem das schon vorher erwähnt worden ist.

If by C1 your reffering to the Catapult C1,that build is impossible, it only has 2 missle hardpoints, you're thinking about the C4

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

*snip*
A1 is a problem...Engine Rating...260max.
Stalker 5M is a problem...Engine Rating 255max.
Stalker 3F with PPC is a problem....cripple heat efficency...nerf PPCs...(yes yes yes - i never understand the changing)

nerfing the engine sizes on the mechs won't fix anything

[Rift Hawk]

My opinion of people who defend boating:

They are incapable of operating a mech a multiple ranges and will defend boating with the dumbest reasons I have ever heard.

I have read so many threads about boating on these forums and seem some of the lamest excuses from people about how boating takes skill. It does not take skill. It is a complete lack of creative thought while building the mech. Strapping 4-6 of the most powerful weapons of the day isn't skill. Its a way to throw skill away and use the mech that is easiest to play.

No, a catapult a-1 with 6 SRM6s does not take skill. So before anyone starts saying it, lets address the issue. No mech is going to blow off the missile pods from your mech while your shooting them with your SRMs. They aren't going to last that long. No it doesn't take any skill to roll up with your team and cheese someone to death. No it doesn't take any skill to stay in cover or stand next to an ECM mech. Its just common sense.

I will say however, its not the players fault. Its the devs fault. If you give players the opportunity, they are going to take it.

I will never understand why the game is the way it is. They current way that mechs exist in this game is not to my liking. Which is a large reason as to why I barely play anymore. For instance, if you have an Awesome 8Q, it is only an Awesome 8Q because of the stock build. Once you change that build, it is no longer an 8Q but something entirely different. I don't understand why they didn't release a single mech for each and make it a point system where you can place your own hardpoints on the mech. Having a set amount of points to work with, while the larger the weapon, the more points it costs to place said weapon. In my opinion, not only would this have been a better way to make the mechs but it would also allow them to release mechs faster and also spend the time to change the mech look based on actual load out. Instead of the current way where AC20s fire from machine gun ports.

Anyway, this is my rant for the day. Good luck in game everyone !

[Helwintr]

well here is a bit og history for you guys. mechs from the pre-clan invasion did tend to be more balanced and one mech does all style where one mech could strike at all ranges to some degree.

but here's the kicker. but after the clans' hit, mechs started to move towards more specialized roles and were meant to function as part of a lance. so having specialized mechs(boats) doesn't break canon. specialized mechs all have weaknesses, and thusly need to rely on the rest of the team to make up for that.

examples
gausscat-longrange firepower but low ammo and slow

LRM atlas- good longrange on open ground, but sucks in close quarters

Swayback(laser hunchy)-no ammo dependency and hits hard but it has crazy heat gen, short range and all the firepower is in one area.

PPC stalker- one shot stopping power, but crazy heat, sucks in close range and can't fire repeatedly without risk of blowing up.

ssrmcat/srmcat-awesome short range, but all the firepower is concentrated in the easy to hit ears and all that highly explosive ammo can be crit

ac/phracts- very ammo dependant and all the weapons take up a lot of tonnage and has very few back ups, so lose an arm and half or more of your effectiveness is gone.

problably another factor is that boaters tend to go for areas that maximize their effectiveness and stay away from high risk areas, and force you to fight them on their terms. this is death for you. the best way to deal with boaters is teamwork and good strategy. and knowing how they are built. just my experience with them, since i mostly play on a team where this is common practice.

Edited by Helwintr, 15 March 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[Corralis]

Hmm how about putting a weapon damage penalty for all weapons of the same type above the 3rd weapon. Maybe a 15% penalty for the 4th weapon but also a 15% heat reduction. Then you can get a 25% penalty for the 5th weapon and a 35% penalty for the 6th, obviously keeping the 25% and 35% heat reduction as well. The exact numbers could be tweeked of course and it won't stop boating being a viable tactic, it will just stop it being totally OP.

[Karl Streiger]

Would you be so kind to adress this vote? Thanks

http://mwomercs.com/...st-discussions/

[IraqiWalker]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Well generally speaken when rnemy has better position and firepower i would avoid it.
so game will end after 15min in a tie because i m not willing to get my buddies got killed.

that is not what sounds for me for a interesting day in open beta

You would be correct, however. That is what you should do in real life. Since this is a game and you can play more than one match/battle you can charge the enemy, and die this time. So you can better set yourself up the next time. There is a reason we deploy in two lances instead of just one. With 8 mechs you can organize them to not only counter every strategy but also to utilize every strategy as well.

When playing in pugs and having to deal with 7 other players on your team that decided today is a good day to field their Spiders, there really isn't much you can do, just fool around and have fun. If you are playing with a faction, you can either do that. Or drop in an organized fashion.

[Vassago Rain]

Why?

[Sheraf]

Even if missiles are bug, I would rather fight lrm boat and streak cat than ECM. That thing is beyond broken.

[Kingdok]

Omni 13, on 14 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

4 srms6s is not nearly as bad as 6 of them

Royalewithcheese, on 14 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

I would say that four of them is exactly as bad compared to 6 of them as 2 of them is compared to 3 of them

Bit of math for your consideration: in TT, 4 SRM6's will do 48 max damage. That's 3 tons of armor in TT. In MWO, the Steaksauce Cat can do 90 max damage. That's a little over 2.8 tons of MWO armor. Not sure about this 'splash damage' effect in MWO, but I found it interesting that the Butterbee is actually more powerful on paper than the Splatcat.

[Shae Starfyre]

I was in my Atlas yesturday, which I use long, medium and short range loadouts (yes, was mentioned the Atlas does this best), and noticed a lot of boats going around.

I got a kill, but team lost, but what I found most interesting is the optimization of the boats relative to high speed abilities.

The A1 Cat with 6 SRMs can still go really fast, and that was the most annoying part, as it made it difficult to target in close range (hense a great brawler boat) plus it's range of motion, makes it ideal in a lot of ways.

The Stalker lacks the range of motion, making it less dangerous in my opinion, as they can get, in close combat, less alpha strikes than the A1, as one can deftly, in an Atlas even, get in the shadow outside that range of motion more often.

So, here is the solution.

Depending on the boating, (I remember reading that the visual layout of the mech will be proportional to the weapon loaded - i.e. 6 SRM will show 6 tubes - can't remember source was in armchair somewhere), that if I mount an SRM 6 in a specific location, it could theroetical interfere with the range of twist.

Now, imagine that; this will not nessessarily effect LRM boats, but it could be for any form of heavy weapon, a deterant from using too many.

Such that an A1 CAT with 6 SRMs could take a 15%-30% decrease in twist due to the heavier components sticking out so much.

There are a lot of logical ways to handle boating that would not nessessarily make them not playable anymore, but add more difficulty in piloting.

[Sheraf]

Aphoticus, on 15 March 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I was in my Atlas yesturday, which I use long, medium and short range loadouts (yes, was mentioned the Atlas does this best), and noticed a lot of boats going around.

I got a kill, but team lost, but what I found most interesting is the optimization of the boats relative to high speed abilities.

The A1 Cat with 6 SRMs can still go really fast, and that was the most annoying part, as it made it difficult to target in close range (hense a great brawler boat) plus it's range of motion, makes it ideal in a lot of ways.

The Stalker lacks the range of motion, making it less dangerous in my opinion, as they can get, in close combat, less alpha strikes than the A1, as one can deftly, in an Atlas even, get in the shadow outside that range of motion more often.

So, here is the solution.

Depending on the boating, (I remember reading that the visual layout of the mech will be proportional to the weapon loaded - i.e. 6 SRM will show 6 tubes - can't remember source was in armchair somewhere), that if I mount an SRM 6 in a specific location, it could theroetical interfere with the range of twist.

Now, imagine that; this will not nessessarily effect LRM boats, but it could be for any form of heavy weapon, a deterant from using too many.

Such that an A1 CAT with 6 SRMs could take a 15%-30% decrease in twist due to the heavier components sticking out so much.

There are a lot of logical ways to handle boating that would not nessessarily make them not playable anymore, but add more difficulty in piloting.

A balance stalker is quite dangerous at mid range, just don't let one looking at you . Splat cat will fall down before it reachs the stalker if it has no support, and approach from range.

[Kingdok]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

I new you would point this weapon at me.
Yes a Stalker that boat 5 medium laser and 4 LRM systems isn't a boat.

It is an Assault Mech... dangerous at all ranges. Mine has only 3 LRM 15 racks, and I never have considered it a 'boat'. Blimp of Death, perhaps, but it gets a third of its kills with the lasers. Had a pair of Trebuchet's with LRM break inside our lines on Caustic Valley last night, intent on shutting down my LRM brutality. They were surprised, I think, when I charged inside their LRM min range and started melting their faces. One went down before the other one realized their blitz wasn't going to crush the LRM 'boat', and I cratered him as soon as he ran out to 185 meters. I was pretty shot to hell from the attempt, but good times...

[Shae Starfyre]

Sheraf, on 15 March 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

A balance stalker is quite dangerous at mid range, just don't let one looking at you . Splat cat will fall down before it reachs the stalker if it has no support, and approach from range.

I'm sorry, but you may have missed the point.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

To be fair LRMs are currently bugged so the QQ (at this point in time) is actually valid

If the word on the street is true, LRM's are not among the bugged Missile groups. LRM's did not receive, more have ever had Splash damage. The new "tighter" flight path just packs a better area punch now.

If, less spread is a "Bug", then why did they tighten the grouping from the old spread at all? They did so because the old flight paths were bugged.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 15 March 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

A1 is a problem...Engine Rating...260max.
Stalker 5M is a problem...Engine Rating 255max.
Stalker 3F with PPC is a problem....cripple heat efficency...nerf PPCs...(yes yes yes - i never understand the changing)

The A1 can no longer be considered until the splash damage fixes are in, that cannot help but have a huge impact on it's effectiveness.
The 5M and 3F are problems? Is this because they are actually a problem or because boating?

Boating happens in TT. It happens in the books. It happens in prior MW titles. It's also not actually bad for the game. The only 'boat' that has any legitimate complaints thrown at it is the Splatcat, and we've recently discovered it's doing potentially 5-7 times as much damage to certain mechs. I'd say that needs fixing before arbitrary nerfs of 'boating'.

MaddMaxx, on 15 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

If the word on the street is true, LRM's are not among the bugged Missile groups. LRM's did not receive, more have ever had Splash damage. The new "tighter" flight path just packs a better area punch now.

Amaris the Usurper, on 13 March 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

• LRM damage is also higher than would be expected. Firing an LRM 5 at an Atlas from about 200 m, I observe 3.1 damage/missile (not 1.8) as a typical value. Doing the same thing versus an Awesome at about 700 m, I observe about 5.8 damage/missile. I cannot be sure that all missiles hit, so the actual damage per missile may be even higher (although only the missiles that hit are important).

The word on the street is not supported by data.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 15 March 2013 - 05:50 AM.