463 replies to this topic

[Royalewithcheese]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

If that were true why are we having this argument?

Because in online multiplayer games, when you get shot the problem is clearly the thing that shot you and the devs need to fix their game

[3rdworld]

Syllogy, on 15 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I'm more interested to know what the heck he's talking about?

Unless he has Canon and TT Rules mixed up?

oh, people like to pretend they know the design intent of some mech made up in the 80s.

My actual guess is these people actually want stock mech only. and are using blame shifting in order to make it seem like the logical choice.

[Alvor]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

The issue with the "canon" robots is mostly that the vast majority of their configs need tweaking or overhauling, and their intended roles (those "balanced" mechs with like 1xLRM5/1xSRM2/1xPPC/1xSmLas are a good example) are not always viable roles for a mechwarrior game. Adding rules in attempt to push the configs closer to stock isn't going to change the fact that people want to run (and will find ways to run) brawlers/poptarts/skirmishers/etc.

So PGI is wasting money since it is paying money to use the Battletech franchise. It should just change the name to Splat n Cheese so it can just make anything it wants. I was suggesting some possible fixes to balance the game not control pilot play styles. Who said anything about stock builds? Please read the post better before making a misinformed reply.

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

That's not a boat thing, though, that's a fast heavy mech thing. In a week, you'll also have to deal with AC40 Jagermechs at ~80 kph.

My original post said it was not a boat "thing" but a balance issue.
Also the Jager does way less damage/less ammo/heavy AC/less armor than a 6Xsrm6s or any other cheesecat.

Edited by Alvor, 15 March 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

If that were true why are we having this argument?

Exactly. Why do these stupid threads keep popping up?

I know why I argue the point, If we let the whiners whine without putting forth the counter-points, then PGI would only see the whine and have to assume that everyone agreed. At some point this would cause them to cave to the "unanimous" opinion, regardless of their own vision of the game.

I'm not pro-boating, but I'm against needless restrictions, particularly if the restrictions themselves make no sense.

[Royalewithcheese]

Alvor, on 15 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

So PGI is wasting money since it is paying money to use the Battletech franchise. It should just change the name to Splat n Cheese so it can just make anything it wants.

What, in your mind, separates "cheese" from "good build?"

[Tice Daurus]

Ultimately I view the OP with ignorance. Battletech had some mechs that were specifically set up to boat a single weapon. The main variant of the Awesome boated PPC's in 3025 version. The Longbow boated LRM's and the cousin of it which was the Crossbow variant boated all SRM's.

There were some mechs specifically built to boat one weapon. Thus boating was made for this game. The trick is that certain mechs were made to be built so that they could be worked together with other mechs to create teamwork together as a unit. I remember having 24 people in my basement one night, and we played from 5PM until 2 in the morning before one side was defeated completely and we had a blast, while we ordered pizzas and destoyed each other to a pulp until there were 2 mechs left on the battlefield.

Boating is not only allowed it's approved.

Now...is having too many streak cats ruining this game? NO. Because while they might be good close up, if they all get caught on Alpine and I'm boating a crapload of LRM's and long range weapons, they are all dead. Let people boat. If they want to run several of that build, they only stand the chance to weaken themselves when they come across a team who has a balanced build of mechs or someone else boating another style of build to counter it.

[KuruptU4Fun]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

If that were true why are we having this argument?

Because people love to argue when they can't seem to overcome a problem on their own (they blame others for their inability to adapt).

Yes boating sucks, but it can be dealt with. The most easy way to do that is to join a team..

[3rdworld]

KuruptU4Fun, on 15 March 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Because people love to argue when they can't seem to overcome a problem on their own (they blame others for their inability to adapt).

Yes boating sucks, but it can be dealt with. The most easy way to do that is to join a team..

Was your post i responded to originally sarcasm?

[Eddrick]

Alvor left out the custom C1 variant "ButterBee" that has four SRM6s. Other then that. Very detiled.

[BlackSquirrel]

Alvor, on 15 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Research

This guy!

See the issue is too complex to be devolved into All boats == bad. or All boats == fine, L2P.
Balance is about context and detail.

A lot has to do with the current maps, and how they favor brawling and stuffing the hugest engine in humanly possible. Therefore splat cat/AC/20 cat not quite an issue on alphine. (Guys have to work for their kills, and are easily shot down at range.) If you nerf cover then LRM will reign supreme. All you need is more than 180m..

LRM Spam/boats is a bit of an issue give the tracking and focus etc. The rest situational... Guass has the downfall now of being really explody...But still damned deadly at any and all ranges...But why dont people complain as much about them anymore?

So the issue isn't with all boats at all times.

[Alvor]

3rdworld, on 15 March 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Why do you base your argument on canon, when the entire purpose of the franchise is to design mechs which were not canon?

????

Wow, hmmmm the franchise is supposed to follow canon otherwise why waste money to use the franchise. If I want a Pepsi I am not going to buy RC Cola. Canon does not mean stock only mechs but it does not make all mechs into Onmimechs or free build mechs. So why base my points of view on canon, well because that is what the game is based off of.

Sorry that you essentially did not understand the use or importance of canon or the purpose of a franchise.

What can I say some people think all colas are the same.

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

What, in your mind, separates "cheese" from "good build?"

Read my original post.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Syllogy, on 15 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

I'm more interested to know what the heck he's talking about?

Unless he has Canon and TT Rules mixed up?

lol youre arguing that canon and the game the canon is from arent the same?

lol seriously?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

it doesnt need to address boating, boating is canon to the game.
The whole Catapult line IS a design of boats

something I wanna point out that at least 33 others have agreed with me on so far

[Wintersdark]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

You need to separate the problem here. Is it boating? Or is it weapon imbalance? Or something else?

Would you complain if a mech was loaded out entirely with medium lasers? Do you feel a 4LL DRG-Flame is problematic?

What about a 4 AC/2 CTF-4X?

If these are ok, then boating is not a problem.

So, then, the problem must be those specific weapons.

SRM/LRM's: There's an existing acknowledged bug with splash damage causing it to do higher damage than it should, particularly against some targets. That should be fixed before worrying more about that.

PPC's: A more interesting issue. Given you'd be ok with 4 Medium Lasers, but 4 PPC's is bad, why is that? Is the PPC individually unbalanced? I'd argue no - but a major balancing aspect of PPC's is Heat. The problem with PPC boats is that they can bypass heat issues to a large degree - they can alpha-strike with 4 (or even 6) PPC's while at 99% heat with no problems beyond a prolonged shutdown, allowing the mech to alpha twice in a row with full weapon convergence, dealing a profound amount of damage.

I'll note that this isn't really so bad in the grand scheme of things because those PPC boats become extremely vulnerable up close/and while shut down, but that aside tabletop has already addressed this problem: High heat penalties, and pushing your heat too far beyond maximum can damage or outright destroy your mech; in addition, simply running at high heat (but not past 100%) has negative impacts on your mech.

I'd posit, then, as others have before: Even without heat penalties, pushing your heat too far beyond 100% in a strike should cause damage in addition to shutting down your mech.

With the bug above fixed, and the heat change here, your problems are over.

No "Boating Fix" required. And that's important, as there's really no way to prevent boating overall without tremendously limiting customization and breaking the whole concept of a lot of mechs which were designed to "boat" from the get go.

[3rdworld]

Alvor, on 15 March 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

????

Wow, hmmmm the franchise is supposed to follow canon otherwise why waste money to use the franchise. If I want a Pepsi I am not going to buy RC Cola. Canon does not mean stock only mechs but it does not make all mechs into Onmimechs or free build mechs. So why base my points of view on canon, well because that is what the game is based off of.

Sorry that you essentially did not understand the use or importance of canon or the purpose of a franchise.

What can I say some people think all colas are the same.

Mechwarriors 2-4 all had customization, which was much more open than what we currently play. So no this is the franchise and it, except for the first iteration, has customization which would not be canon.

But the game is taking a cola, removing half the ingredients and putting in different ones.

So why argue about how this new drink isn't the old one. It is not relevant.

Edited by 3rdworld, 15 March 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Eternal Hunter]

Boating is canon, agreed.
But as also said the problem is weapons hitting the same spot which is not canon, it should be random but that would take skill out of it - also most boats are lrm or laser boats, laser boats are a pain, but speed makes them miss and\or distribute damage.
As with any fps'ish game, you stand still you're probably dead.

LRM boats...meh. Cover helps, ecm helps, AMS helps. NOT charging straight at them for 500 meters out in los while they TAG you with tons of artemis enabled missiles help. Hell, even Torso twisting then can make you survive.
But still with all that I feel too much of the LRM damage is assigned to center torso *shrug*

[Fut]

KhanCipher, on 14 March 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

the head of the Longbow, Naginata, Archer, and Catapult familys are sending their... "messangers" to tell you how wrong you are. or that you didn't seem to play TT...

Yeah, I've never understood this whole "LRM should only soften up your opponents" train of thought...

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

or for the sake of not totally nerfing the A1 to junk maybe 3 or 4 tubes total.

You were doing so good with the whole Canon idealistic diatribe dude. Then you wrinkled like a cheap piece of paper. You can't beat us with the holy "Canon Stick" then make statements like "or" and "for the sake of not totally" fcol.

In Canon there were no restrictions, just weight and space. Without the MechLab as is, and full freedom, MWO would already be what chased most away from other MechWarrior titles.

You should thank the Dev team for not making those same mistakes again.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 15 March 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[AlexWildeagle]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 March 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

it doesnt need to address boating, boating is canon to the game.
The whole Catapult line IS a design of boats

Either you don't know what boating is or you're just being rude.

All the Cats have some direct fire weapons. Boating is ripping those out to mod the missile launchers or add more tons of ammo.

[Yokaiko]

AlexWildeagle, on 15 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Either you don't know what boating is or you're just being rude.

All the Cats have some direct fire weapons. Boating is ripping those out to mod the missile launchers or add more tons of ammo.

so......the A1 with only missile slots............not a boat?

Are we playing the same game?