144 replies to this topic

[Voidcrafter]

Faldrin, on 17 March 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Mlaser's fired 1224 hit rate 93.30%
LLasers fired 490 hit rate 95.92%
LPulse Laser 373 hit rate 94.10%

Hmm Direct fire weapons are OP the need a nerf with hit rates like that it means no skill needed!

While yes it is known that splash damage is too high I don't really notice it as I very rarely get hit by them!


Edit

The point of this post Is LRMs require more skill to use than any other weapon. As a person who sucks with LRM's with timing and other such things. Almost no direct fire weapons require any type of skill other than facing a target at less than 1000! But LRM's at 500+ requires more planing (not by much true) than any other weapon system in game. So the no skill stuff is rather silly from people that just want brawler online.

Eeer... yea.. you need JUST to face the target, keep it under your cursor, not caring if it's a raven, traveling with 150km/h, or an atlas, who makes your whole cockpit shake with AC20 or SRMs, while you can't see a thing from the smoke.
Ooh not to forget you should calculate the distance you gotto have, leading the target so your ballistics actually hit.
Or both, providing most mechs have both ballistics and energy.
Or that and choose a different lead distance to fire your SRMs so they can land a hit.

Oh, forgot to mention that your trajectory weapons should hit a PARTICULAR part from the enemy body, not just hit it at all - or you won't be effitient as you should be to just survive.
And all that for a second before or after you get in/out of cover, so you don't take all the punishment this game land on your head.
And all that while a red text "WARNING: INCOMING MISSILES" blinks at the top of your screen, making your am-I-friggin-covered paranoia kick in.
But hell... how can you know that, while you're sitting tons of meters away from any fighting at all?
I think most of the new players, having been in few games already will always jump to the same conclusion:
"Damn... I can be 700m away, not putting myself in danger and actually (occasionally) able to kill stuff? Why the hell not!!" - thus leading to a game with ~4 LRM boats.
I like the guys who keep blaming people for their lack of skill, since they get hit from LRMs.
To the same ones:
Have you payed attention to the map design at all?
Your missiles aint going, like any other weapon in the game btw, in a straight line. They draw the rainbow of doom on the sky, making ANY cover not enough, demanding you got THE. PERFECT. cover. or get obliterated.
How many situational perfect covers do you think all the maps have?
Yes. It's Alpine Peaks's fault partially - it's the worse map in ~500m range in terms of cover, especially with the long distances to cross. Yes, you can stay behind a giant hill for like 7 mins and not get hit by a single missile but I don't think that's the point of this topic is it?
I, as I said before not a single time, think, that LRM boating should be punished somehow.
And every single player, that blame my(or any of the other players - since talking so much about skills leaves the overall feeling, that this game is ran by 90+% of completely brain damaged people, or so these people are saying...) skill for not being able to evade any LRM on any map, 100% of the time... well...
You can leave your ingame name after that post - I'll remind your words the next time we meet, I promise you that

Edited by Voidcrafter, 19 March 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Sheraf]

Voidcrafter, on 19 March 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Eeer... yea.. you need JUST to face the target, keep it under your cursor, not caring if it's a raven, traveling with 150km/h, or an atlas, who makes your whole cockpit shake with AC20 or SRMs, while you can't see a thing from the smoke.
Ooh not to forget you should calculate the distance you gotto have, leading the target so your ballistics actually hit.
Or both, providing most mechs have both ballistics and energy.
Or that and choose a different lead distance to fire your SRMs so they can land a hit.

Oh, forgot to mention that your trajectory weapons should hit a PARTICULAR part from the enemy body, not just hit it at all - or you won't be effitient as you should be to just survive.
And all that for a second before or after you get in/out of cover, so you don't take all the punishment this game land on your head.
And all that while a red text "WARNING: INCOMING MISSILES" blinks at the top of your screen, making your am-I-friggin-covered paranoia kick in.
But hell... how can you know that, while you're sitting tons of meters away from any fighting at all?
I think most of the new players, having been in few games already will always jump to the same conclusion:
"Damn... I can be 700m away, not putting myself in danger and actually (occasionally) able to kill stuff? Why the hell not!!" - thus leading to a game with ~4 LRM boats.
I like the guys who keep blaming people for their lack of skill, since they get hit from LRMs.
To the same ones:
Have you payed attention to the map design at all?
Your missiles aint going, like any other weapon in the game btw, in a straight line. They draw the rainbow of doom on the sky, making ANY cover not enough, demanding you got THE. PERFECT. cover. or get obliterated.
How many situational perfect covers do you think all the maps have?
Yes. It's Alpine Peaks's fault partially - it's the worse map in ~500m range in terms of cover, especially with the long distances to cross. Yes, you can stay behind a giant hill for like 7 mins and not get hit by a single missile but I don't think that's the point of this topic is it?
I, as I said before not a single time, think, that LRM boating should be punished somehow.
And every single player, that blame my(or any of the other players - since talking so much about skills leaves the overall feeling, that this game is ran by 90+% of completely brain damaged people, or so these people are saying...) skill for not being able to evade any LRM on any map, 100% of the time... well...
You can leave your ingame name after that post - I'll remind your words the next time we meet, I promise you that

So you do actually get out pen and paper and do a calculation for your ballistic path to hit target? :Do
If you were 700m away from the battle, and didn't have LRM, something was wrong. You were left behind by your team , catch up with your team next time

And cover works very well for LRM, you just need to know the LRM trajectory better.

LRM boating is already being punished enough for their inability to engage in close combat.

[CDLord HHGD]

The only thing I hate is when I get a bead on someone and I fire LRMs+Artemis it takes volley after volley before they are yellow and back behind cover. When someone gets a bead on me in my atlas, I'm down in one volley..... I'm sure its my fault, but I haven't figured it out yet.....

[Draconeran]

Inyc, on 17 March 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

If you're shooting out an LRM 10, thats 18 damage. Thats the equivalent of 2 shots of ER Large Laser which means you'd be firing, waiting, firing, waiting for 3.25 seconds, firing again (takes 1 second) so 4,25 seconds to do that damage with ER Large Laser.

1/3rd as long... except you are exposed to return fire when using the ER Large Laser. More risk = more reward.

LRMs have very low risk and so have very low reward in most situations. The main issue is not so much how powerful they are but more that they force everyone to play a certain way as soon as there is a single LRM boater on the field. Of course its never a bad idea to be hugging cover at all times vs any sort of enemy fire... but the LRM boat completely prevents brawls period. As soon as you engage an enemy, you run the very real risk of getting LRM pounded in a situation where you can't head for cover.

I would say the best way to "fix" LRMs is to greatly cut down on their trajectory jinking on the last part of their descent when fired blind.

So the fact that unlike other weapons LRMs usually don't get max damage unless you get that perfect shot. I.E. the enemy in the open and standing still. My average right now is 52% firing two LRM 15 & two LRM 5. Killed lots and been killed lots. I think that the way you end you dying by LRMs makes you remember more that the lucky/well aimed head shot or torso kill. You litterally get blown away in a mass barrage of death.

[Voidcrafter]

Sheraf, on 19 March 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

So you do actually get out pen and paper and do a calculation for your ballistic path to hit target? :Do
If you were 700m away from the battle, and didn't have LRM, something was wrong. You were left behind by your team , catch up with your team next time

And cover works very well for LRM, you just need to know the LRM trajectory better.

LRM boating is already being punished enough for their inability to engage in close combat.

I am sorry, I'm up for a dispute for this one.
I do know very well the LRM trajectory, well enough to be ready to argue about the number of good covers(and the time you need to get behind them) on(for example ofcourse) the ridge of Caustic Valley, Alpine Peaks, Forest Colony, Frozen City... Yep. There are some large hills there, but also - the decclivity/acclivity they(the hills) could be exploited fairy easy, provided the enemy know what's doing.
I just think the punishment for being hit from LRM(without Artemis) should be spreaded wider - right now I'm feeling like it's concentrated on a single torso part(most of the cases - the center torso), before the so famous silent change the missiles were just fine - still scary, viable, something to have in mind all the time, they weren't just that deadly.
I don't mind a weapon being deadly - that's the main idea afterall
But a weapon with that kind of range, trajectory, damage, high cap. ammo/tonage that's following targets and taking small turns around cover, requiring a single spot held from someone from your 8-man team...
Yes, it's not a complete no-brainer mate and I know that the idea of missiles is to aim toward the ultimate tool of destruction. In the real life.
Here... I feel it like it's breaking the ballance and persuading people to play with it, ending with one too many LRM boats on some(or both) side of the teams.
I don't "whine" cause I'm not owning stuff - I'm doing alright
I'm actually raging the most when I kill the next LRM boat and feel anger toward the person who ran this build, that requires no imagination... Cause, you know, the same one could be on my team the next match, and no matter how many people he manage to kill, if he's new, what would he learn about the game?
But that's my point of view - I think everybody noted this now -
I dislike boating and I dislike LRMs(as a weapon).

Edited by Voidcrafter, 19 March 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Skyfaller]

Again, let's break this down shall we?

Thoummim, on 18 March 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

An LRM 20 has a max DPS of 7.58 weight 10tons
A gauss 3.75 weight 15 tons
An AC20 5 weight 14 tons.

The LRM20 has 9shot per ton with a potential of 324dmg per ton, the gauss 10shot for 150dmg and the AC20 7shot for 140dmg.

The LRM 324 damage per ton does not apply fully to any target. You will notice that even on a direct impact there is a bunch of missiles that miss and hit the ground or fly past the target mech. This is hard coded into the game and you can see with a single LRM5 or LRM10 as a test bed that approximately 1 in 5 missiles will always miss..and this is with artemis effect on. Indirect fire/no artemis it is 2 in 5 that miss. That brings down that 324 potential damage to around 64 points. You're now at 260. Still twice the dmg of guns right? Well... you see, unlike guns, the LRM can actually LOSE the lock and miss completely. Unlike the guns, the LRMs take up to 10 seconds to hit a target. Unlike the guns, LRMs give a warning that pain is coming in.

So in practical terms, the LRM does have the same effective damage as the guns themselves. The defining factor is pilot skill and target's stupidity at staying out in the open.

Quote

Cover is super effective, ECM too ? Yes, until the ennemy raven come TAG you, and 2different lrm boat launch enough missile to darken the sky, you'll stop one volley never both. Stay with the DDC ? so much fun...

Just stop right there. If you're in cover the raven tagging you means nothing since the LRMs will hit the cover you are using. The only way 2 different LRMs can make it so that at least one of them hits you is if you got flanked so that one LRM clears the cover object you are using. This means you either rushed ahead so much that the LRM support boats are now able to aim at your exposed sides or rear... or that the lrm boat and his team-mates flanked your team so nicely that their maneuver is about to pay off...by spilling your mech's guts into the ground.

Also note that if the LRM has a shot at you from flank, any direct damage boat would have killed you much faster. I do this a lot with my six PPC stalker... the rushers expose their flank to me and *pow* they die. My mediums/lights and I flank fast and get a clean side shot at their heavies and assaults as they position to hit our own rushers.. and POW they start to lose components every salvo I fire. Unlike LRMs the PPC's give No warning. No time to react.

[Sheraf]

Voidcrafter, on 19 March 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

I am sorry, I'm up for a dispute for this one.
I do know very well the LRM trajectory, well enough to be ready to argue about the number of good covers(and the time you need to get behind them) on(for example ofcourse) the ridge of Caustic Valley, Alpine Peaks, Forest Colony, Frozen City... Yep. There are some large hills there, but also - the decclivity/acclivity they(the hills) could be exploited fairy easy, provided the enemy know what's doing.
I just think the punishment for being hit from LRM(without Artemis) should be spreaded wider - right now I'm feeling like it's concentrated on a single torso part(most of the cases - the center torso), before the so famous silent change the missiles were just fine - still scary, viable, something to have in mind all the time, they weren't just that deadly.
I don't mind a weapon being deadly - that's the main idea afterall
But a weapon with that kind of range, trajectory, damage, high cap. ammo/tonage that's following targets and taking small turns around cover, requiring a single spot held from someone from your 8-man team...
Yes, it's not a complete no-brainer mate and I know that the idea of missiles is to aim toward the ultimate tool of destruction. In the real life.
Here... I feel it like it's breaking the ballance and persuading people to play with it, ending with one too many LRM boats on some(or both) side of the teams.
I don't "whine" cause I'm not owning stuff - I'm doing alright
I'm actually raging the most when I kill the next LRM boat and feel anger toward the person who ran this build, that requires no imagination... Cause, you know, the same one could be on my team the next match, and no matter how many people he manage to kill, if he's new, what would he learn about the game?
But that's my point of view - I think everybody noted this now -
I dislike boating and I dislike LRMs(as a weapon).

LRM has the range but compare to the Gauss cannon, the Gauss cannon is more dangerous. LRM gives you too much time to get away at 800m and beyond. A LRM boat sitting at 800m is not going to hit anyone unless the other team is running amok on the battle field and engage in circling brawl. A good team simply stay behind cover if they don't have ECM light, and set up ambush for other team to walk into then hunt the LRM boat now alone and defenseless . I have been in several matches like that one on both sides, the LRM boat and the brawler. LRM only hit people who don't know where they going in a map. In a good match, I can barely hit anyone with my LRM, but I'm always carry other weapons as well

[SteelJaws]

Hate LRMS? No. Hate getting caught in the open when they are in use? Yes.

[Irvine]

I just hate it when

• my favorite weapon is going to get a nerf b/c it became the newest FOTM
  
• I get to stubborn and impatient to sit behind a hill and wait for the rain to end
  
  • Then my slow *** dies to lrms i shouldn't have walked into

EDIT

why did ALRMS get the flight path change? They were really balanced last patch...

Edited by Irvine, 19 March 2013 - 07:29 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

I don't hate LRMs. I love it when they are on my team and the enemy has no ECM. Too risky though. One COM-2D and LRM boat totally nerfed. I think a more balanced approach to LRMs would go a long way in pugs. Boating in 8v8s is rare but might be effective depending on the map.

[Ignatz22]

tuokaerf, on 17 March 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

No, they're perfectly viable. There are some issues with splash damage that can cause more damage than intended from LRMs (and other missiles) right now that's causing some rage.

Stick to cover and you're usually fine.

Sirs;

I agree; they’re not the easiest weapon or build to do well in, and if your team doesn’t target they can be more frustrating than being set upon by a flock of Ravens, which is also a hazard. A GOOD LRM pilot won’t waste missiles on short-lock or fast movers, and will add some serious hitting power to a team wherein his usefulness is exploited. [/color]

As you’ve stated, they can be countered. It still forces prudent pilot to alter their configurations and play to negate their potential damage.

I believe it makes life more…interesting.

Edited by Ignatz22, 19 March 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[xRaeder]

Taemien, on 19 March 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

There was a 34+ page whine thread about LRMs and Narcs in the MWLL forums about that since that is how it worked there too. Given that the community was much smaller in MWLL than it is here in MWO, its safe to say that if Narc worked like that here, these forums would explode much like they did when consumables were first announced.




Ok, you all are saying ballistic damage does nothing. So nerf all other weapons to do nothing too? So how are we supposed to damage each other?

I don't know how dense you could be to suggest something like that. A large laser does its listed damage. It works. Why would you want it to do less than that? All that needs to be fixed is AC20s doing 20 damage all the time. This is something that is probably coming in the next patch so I don't understand why you'd want to nerf weapons that currently work as intended.

You could just simply use the weapons that work currently instead of asking the Devs to break working aspects of the game. It is after all easier for you to remodify your mechs in the mech lab then it is for the devs recode the game 2-3 times. Once to break stuff, twice to bring it back, and then a third time to rebalance. Besides not everyone is having those issues, as it is latency based. Need proof? Go in the training grounds.

No I'm saying that ballistic shots actually BOUNCE off targets. Huge difference. Even PPCs suffer from this. I had a game last night where 4 AC/20 shots bounced off a stationary Atlas at 200 meters. The explosion particle effect played. His torso rocked left/right with each hit... no ******* damage.

[Taemien]

xRaeder, on 19 March 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

No I'm saying that ballistic shots actually BOUNCE off targets. Huge difference. Even PPCs suffer from this. I had a game last night where 4 AC/20 shots bounced off a stationary Atlas at 200 meters. The explosion particle effect played. His torso rocked left/right with each hit... no ******* damage.

Then report a bug and move on if you feel its that bad.

Don't ask for nerfs on weapons that aren't broken. Thats asinine. Especially when not everyone has that AC/20 bug. You nerf laser damage by half and the few people that don't have the issue or don't have it as much will just wreck everything with impunity.

Then when the bug is fixed, they've got to go back and revert all the changes.

And by the way, it can still be a networking issue. Just because you see exploisons and stuff, doesn't mean anything. You probably don't know this, but others aren't seeing the explosions. Thats because the game goes "oh you hit that, explode!" where the server goes, "you missed, no damage."

Why doesn't the server talk to your game about confirming hits? Because of hacks. All it takes is sending a packet stream to the server during a game and every mech takes 5000 damage. There is a way around the latency, its host state rewind and its not implemented for ballistics yet. That comes in a later patch. For now just use lasers and lockon missiles if its that much of an issue.

[Kyoulkoa]

so, how are lrms now?

[Psikez]

Kyoulkoa, on 20 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

so, how are lrms now?

[M4rtyr]

Omni 13, on 19 March 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

ACs are better than missles though, autocannons deal all of their damage to one pin point location, missles like to splash all over the other mech.

Except they aren't because convergence is a flaw too which is why a 6 PPC stalker is actually viable since it only take one or two alphas to core a mech since they all hit the same location.

So you can't use that as a valid argument. Now -IF- the Devs didn't actually use the TT numbers for the baseline then you might have an argument, but they do use those number, and those numbers were based on ALL weapons damages being spread randomly.

So you end up with bad balance because the implementation didn't take these factors into account.

Edited by M4rtyr, 20 March 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Snuglninja]

Nothing wrong with Lrm but they seem to be hitting the head now . That's BS

[aniviron]

M4rtyr, on 17 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

I do so love this arguement. Stop complaining about LRM's doing sick damage, just don't use half the mechs in the game and use a fast one so LRM's do abosolutely nothing.

Talk about an all or nothing approach. That's not balance, not even close.

This is my real issue with LRMs. In practice, it's fairly rare for me to get hit by LRMs because I tend to be pretty good about sticking within 30m of cover or ECM at all times, and constantly feather my throttle so I can duck back down when I need to. But that's exactly the thing- no other weapon has such great impact on the metagame. LRMs are why ECM is so critical, and why ECM variants are considered to be the best in the game. LRMs are the reason nobody (okay, not many) people like alpine. LRMs are why anyone in a mech that does less than 150 never crosses an open area more than 200m across unless they have teammates to soak fire. LRMs are why the higher levels of the elo bracket are dominated by ppc/gauss snipers who can engage at long range and duck back before the death rains in.

So sure, cover is always a good idea, and ECM always helps; most of these tactics are not bad ideas anyway. But without LRMs dictating tactics, the game changes pretty drastically. Open areas become much less dangerous, because while a PPC or three hurts, unlike an 2xLRM15 salvo, it won't core my Awesome in one hit. Furthermore, anyone firing at you is vulnerable to your return fire, and has to either maneuver or take damage themselves, contrasted against the artillery that can put damage downrange without taking any in return. ECM will always be good as well, but suddenly it's not necessary to make a push against a well-fortified artillery stalker, meaning there are more viable variants, which means more viable weapon loadouts.

So no, for me it's fairly rare to take LRM damage except when I get careless. But my entire play style and that of most other good players is dictated specifically to avoid taking damage from them- which tells me that there needs to be some tweaking done to the weapon. No other weapon has the same amount of influence on how the game is played.

[Gremlich Johns]

Aren't you all glad they also do not have Streak LRMs (and SMRMs) in the game?

[Eights n Aces]

Weztside, on 17 March 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Does that make me noob or am I simply exploiting a weakness in most player's mech builds?

Hmmm...hard to choose.

I'd say you're just exploiting a weakness in the game.