144 replies to this topic

[Yankee77]

Toxik, on 18 March 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Problem with me and the LRM spam is that it pretty much dictate the game, you have ECM, good you probably won't feel the LRM heat as much, don't have ECM, well as all the skilled LRMer will tell you stay in cover. But that's part of the problem with LRM, if you team has to hide because of 2 or 3 boats on the other side then they are dictacting the engagement purely because of those boats. Sure you can probably flank them but there is a good chance you might run inot the rest of their team in doing so, and the rest of the PUG is probably hiding behind that hill you started from.
Also when brawling you usually don't have time to look out for boats, so you are trying to use cover against who you are brawling with only to get hammered by LRM because in doing so you moved to the wrong side of a hill...
To me the "use cover" excuse is probably what's annoy me the most in the whole debate, sure I use cover but leaving cover for 20s should not mean instant death to LRM spam at it is right now. Skill level is also pretty low using LRM, just hang 500m behind your team, wait for the brawl to start and spam away.

They're defining the battlefield, yes, but that's not a bad thing. It's that sort of stuff that adds tactical depth to a game. Just like snipers, LRMs create kill zones and safe areas, movement and fire lanes that skilled players.

A skilled team, without ECM, can avoid LRM spam purely by using the maps properly. Indeed, that's what makes LRM boats suck so much in 8-mans. A good team will nullify them through proper maneuvering (staying in cover, sending flankers, what-have-you), thereby putting them at a significant advantage (since the other team now has some mechs that are useless, your team has an advantage in firepower).

You wouldn't cross an open area if a team had a bunch of snipers lined up to attack it, wouldn't you? Same goes for LRM (except, of course, LRMs give you a chance to get back in cover). There's nothing wrong with the tactical depth that this adds to the game, it means the maps are more than simple "boxing rings" for you to brawl in, but are tactical environments.

As for brawling, again that's a tactical decision. Do you use cover to protect you from the LRMs, or from the sniper in front of you. Can you force the enemy to fight out of cover, or to come to YOUR cover so you can brawl it while under cover? And if you're brawling the enemy force, why are the LRM boats out there unmolested? You've drawn their brawlers to you, now's the time to flank them.

This is the same reason I don't mind the ECM cloak effect: it adds tactical depth to the game, and that's a good thing.

[VonRunnegen]

Had a bad experience the other day with two big LRM boats sitting 90 degrees apart from where I was, leaving me playing an exciting game of hide and seek - when I was in cover from one the other could shoot me. They got me, it hurt, but they deserved the kill for me getting into that position and I still made them burn through tons of ammo and time.

It'll be interesting to see how the splash changes impact on LRMs.

[boomboom517]

Naja, on 17 March 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

I think you're over simplifying it drastically. Granted LRM's require very little 'skill' to fire, but proper firing positions and reaction to incoming missiles/mechs becomes more important than with a direct fire mech. You have to maintain that lock for about 5 or 6 seconds on average, which means getting set up in a location where you can do so without getting a face full of fire. Proper team coordination is also vital to effectively use LRMS so saying that they require little skill to be effective in combat is just not true. I will concede that if people want to wander out in the open then an LRM user will chew them up, but that's just because the enemy failed to utilise cover so close the gap. Taking LRMS is also a sacrifice as once that gap is closed, they essentially have dead weight and must rely on their backup weapon systems alone. Just because they use a lock on system does not make them easy mode, unless the people they're engaging are silly enough to stand out in the open and not use cover. Which really isn't that hard, from what I can remember I have not died a single time to LRM fire since closed beta.

all valid points the biggest problem i have when using the lrm20 on my catapult is players in cover or within 180 meters it can also hard to judge if your missles will fly over th obsical infron of you or ram into it

[Beef Hands]

THe effectiveness of Lerms are tied directly to the pilots skill at reading enemies and positioning themselves to have an advantage, which is the greatest skill any pilot can have. People that hate on LRM's are bad pilots. If you are positioning yourself where you can be murdered by a weapon system that can actually be dodged (even in assaults) then you in fact need to question who has no skill. On another note, LRM's have the largest minimum range of any weapon system in game, and for some reason get thrown on assault mechs by a lot of players, the elementary level psychology of which i grasp (I have LRM 95 I am super beast) but in the end makes it a very slow ammo explosion waiting to happen. My point is that LRM hate is unjustified, and frankly idiotic.

Edited by Beef Hands, 18 March 2013 - 06:03 AM.

[Zoom2136]

My ideas to make LRM require “more skills” are the following:

Locking a target would work as it does now. Put your reticle on the target and get a lock after a few seconds on target.

BUT, the quality of the lock would be linked to the time lock has been kept before firing your missile.

The way I would render this is adding another circle that completes itself around the present day reticle.

For standard LRM’s --- Make it a 12 blocks line (3 per quarter or the circle) which mean, for each 1/3 of a second (this could be more or less) that you hold target from getting a lock you gain about 7.6% (1/13^th) in accuracy or tighter grouping of your LRM’s. 100% accuracy would be gained when the 12 blocks are filled and this would give you the same level of grouping that standard LRM’s have now. Basically, you can shoot fast with lower accuracy (i.e.: instant shoot on first target lock gets you 7.6% accuracy, and gets better the longer the target remains locked), or shoot slower with higher accuracy.

For missiles with Artemis --- Make it 4 blocks lines (1 per quarter or the circle) which mean, for each 1/3 of a second (this could be more or less) that you hold target from getting a lock you gain 20% (1/5^th) in accuracy or tighter grouping of your Artemis LRM’s. 100% accuracy would be gained when the 4 blocks are filled and this would give you the same level of grouping that Artemis LRM’s have now. Basically, you can shoot fast with lower accuracy (i.e.: instant shoot on first target lock gets you 20% accuracy, and gets better the longer the target remains locked), or shoot slower with higher accuracy.

Well my 2c

Edited by Zoom2136, 18 March 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[I am]

LRMs are very OP. More than half the mechs have some if not alot of them, each game. The salivation over the joy of direct firing down an enemy mech is enjoyed too sparsely.

Beef Hands, on 18 March 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

THe effectiveness of Lerms are tied directly to the pilots skill at reading enemies and positioning themselves to have an advantage, which is the greatest skill any pilot can have. People that hate on LRM's are bad pilots. If you are positioning yourself where you can be murdered by a weapon system that can actually be dodged (even in assaults) then you in fact need to question who has no skill. On another note, LRM's have the largest minimum range of any weapon system in game, and for some reason get thrown on assault mechs by a lot of players, the elementary level psychology of which i grasp (I have LRM 95 I am super beast) but in the end makes it a very slow ammo explosion waiting to happen. My point is that LRM hate is unjustified, and frankly idiotic.

Your that guy that uses OP weapons and cries about how balanced they are while they do it. Thats ok. We have alotta Raven fans too, so were real used to that.

I use LRMs, but not due to their balanced damage output, or the skill challenge of holding a lock for 5-10 seconds. I use LRMs because they are way way way easier to score huge with, to get more kills with, and to maximize my battlefield effectiveness. Not that clicking my fire button back to back is not challenging or anything but, its not exactly rocket science either.

LRMs are easy mode. I will spam them for that reason. At least I can be honest about it.

........ Diary of an Lurm W h o r e

Edited by I am, 18 March 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Michael Costanza]

People complain about lrms, srms, streaks, energy weapons, ballistics, etc... every weapon is going to have its advantages and disadvantages.

[Forestal]

Michael Costanza, on 18 March 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

People complain about lrms, srms, streaks, energy weapons, ballistics, etc... every weapon is going to have its advantages and disadvantages.

QFT. Your typical anecdotal rant goes like this--

"LRMs/ PPCs/ SRMs/ [insert weapon/ equipment/ build/ etc. which you have failed or given up at learning to "counter"]/etc. are very OP. More than half the mechs have some if not alot of them, each game. The salivation over the joy of direct firing down an enemy mech is enjoyed too sparsely."

But seriously, shouldn't a weapon/ equipment/ build/ etc. which more than half the players have fun or success with using a good one for MWO's GAMING/BUSINESS model?


Sigh, I guess only the people who play medium classes (with limited tonnage/ hardpoints/ etc.) will appreciate the sharp trade-off between every kind of weapon/ equipment/ build/ etc... so just cut the heavies "down to size", so that no one can really go for any kind of "overload" anything, heheheh.

Nah, just kidding-- PGI wouldn't dream of steepening the learning curve even further for newbies or PUGs (how many newbies or PUGs are advised to start out with the heavies?).

Edited by Forestal, 18 March 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Elizander]

Roadkill, on 17 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

LRMs are OP vs stupid people, and nearly useless against good pilots.

It is for that reason, however, that they need to be tweaked. Anything that accentuates the gulf between the good pilots and the bad pilots is bad for the game. We need lots of bad pilots to play and buy bobbleheads and paint for their Mechs. If we constantly destroy them with LRMs they'll stop playing and PGI won't be able to continue development.

A reasonable compromise, but let's not dumb it down too much!

[Galenit]

PPCs/SMRs/Lasers/ACs are very OP. More than half the mechs have some if not alot of them, each game. I see much more lazors every game then other weapons! (Should i argue on this level?)

Died the last 20 games one time to lrms, the rest was ppc, ac, srm and some lasers....

[EvilCow]

Once the splash damage is fixed probably the LRMs will be OK. I just with the AMS to be more effective, it is hard to invest the tonnage in AMS when the real effect is so small.

[Ph30nix]

in about 5 hours of game play yesterday i died to LRM's a grand total of.... ONCE.
that wasnt in my brand new raven either, that was in my Catapuls.

To those whining that LRM's make your team have to Hide, or dictate what you do... umm DUH? also your team has Zero LRM's? Your team isnt doing the same thing? If so your basicly complaining that your team isnt diverse enough to handle a situation it went into "OMG the other team has machine guns and rocket launchers while all we have is sling shots!!!!"

Also that whole time those missles are raining down on you, that LRM launcher has to focus on YOU and only you, have 2-3 guys raining missles on you? guess what your single handedly keeping 2-3 mechs busy at once. I had alotta fun yesterday on caustic playing peekaboo over a ridge near where Epi normaly is (was assault not conquest) enemy team hs 3 guys launching LRM's at me for a good 2-4 Minutes while i sniped back at them with 3 PPC's. In the end i finaly died after killed 2 of them and i only died to the third because i got greedy (had been the whole time or i wouldnt have taken damage but if i hadnt they wouldnt have stayed in place raining missles on me) In that time my remaining teammates were able to clean up their team since a good chunk if not ALL of their long range support was busy.

countless times on River City ill park myself under that landing pad thing near the center of the river and laugh and missles rain down on me just to go splat into the outcropping.

So yea LRM's are easy, you get a lock and hit the button, just like how every other weapon is easy where you point in the direction of your opponent and press *insert fire button here*.

I cant wait to see the whining if they ever allow you to lock missles onto specific locations on target mech like a few other mechwarrior games did. Just picture all that screaming and QQ when people are finding instead of center torso getting hit (which they can twist and turn to spread the damage more) they find their limbs getting blown off repeatedly.

Edited by Ph30nix, 18 March 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Dishevel]

I hate myself when I do stupid things and find myself on the wrong end of a lethal number of LRMs incoming with no shelter in range.

[Icepick]

Lock-on weapons are almost universally reviled because they take the "aim" out of "aim and shoot." For my money they should be dangerous, but as a direct-fire, hit-what-you-aim-at kinda way. Indirect fire should be out of the picture.

I rather liked the way streaks in MW4 were implemented - They always hit, but they always hit exactly the part under the cursor when the trigger was pulled.

[Taemien]

I wonder what everyone's reaction will be when LRM 'splash' is untouched in the bug fix that comes out for SRM/SSRM. The devs stated it was only with Streaks and SRMs. But for some, they think it includes LRMs too.

Paul Inouye, on 14 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Interesting and very thorough testing by the OP and many kudos for the in-depth write-up.
This problem has 2 levels.

First is that Testing Grounds has quite a few issues when reporting damage and the numbers you're seeing are inflated quite a bit (almost double). We will be addressing this bug and others as Testing Grounds matures over time.

Second, this does NOT eliminate the findings that S-SRMs AND SRMs are doing more damage than intended. This is not due to some top secret, behind your back weapon balancing. It has to do with splash damage, how it was first implemented and the new smaller Mechs coming out.

LRMs will probably still be doing the same damage as they are now after the April 2 patch.

Edited by Taemien, 18 March 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Mister Haha]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I drive an Atlas with 2 SRM6s, 4 Ml and an AC20 but I dont seem to have any issue with killing people and pulling 4 to 600 damage a game

You also have no reading comprehension.

I drive an atlas with 4.5 K:D. What does either have anything to do with what I was saying?

[NRP]

Here's what I hate. I'm in a brawl with multiple enemies. We are literally face hugging each other. LRMs come raining down and hit me. They don't even scratch the dude I am literally 10m away from. This is wrong imo. If all people are going to do is sit back and spam LRMs into the furball, they should damage everything with an area radius, not just one highlighted enemy. I think if there was a reasonable chance these LRM **** could get team kills, they would need to be a bit more selective about where they spam those things.

[xRaeder]

LRMs in MW4 were awesome. They quickly locked on but required a line of sight.

Until ballistics stop bouncing off targets despite explosion hit particles displaying I say LRMs and SRMs need a nerf because they don't suffer from the same bugs.

I shot an stationary Atlas with an AC/20 4 times... explosion particles appear and the mech rocks to the left or right and no damage. That **** needs to change.

[Alvor]

Number of (regular LRM/SRM) missiles hit per salvo in current MWO is OP. Per canon on average only about 50%-60% should be hitting i.e. LRM20 average 12 missiles hit per salvo, SRM6 average 4 missiles hit per salvo.

To summarize TAG should always work & Streaks/Regular LRMs should never be blocked by ECM if using Canon BT/MW.

Guardian ECM should blur/double image/”confuse” radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors. Not invisible or unspotterable. NO stacking effect of multiple ECMs. X Percentage chance be countered by Advance Sensors module for X time per pilot only.

For MWO: targeted ECM mech should have the benefits of Artemis negated. Longer “target” or lock times @ a range 180 meters or less. Loss of lock X time faster when no line of sight or spottered. Perhaps deny classify/weapon load out/target info unless countered by an active probe.


All this information was taken from http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page which is one of the best resources for Battletech information.

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Guardian ECM Suite is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.[2]

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite

Angel ECM Suite is an experimental version of the Guardian ECM Suite operating on a broader spectrum and greatly advances ECM technology on the battlefield.
Game Rules
The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV,Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles. TAG is compatible with systems such as Arrow IV Homing Missiles or LRM munitions.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM

Streak Missile Launcher Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LRM

Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Number of Missiles Hit Table
Die Roll (2D6) Number of Missiles Fired
…2 3 4 5 6 9 10 12 15 20
2.. 1.. 1.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6
3.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6
4.. 1.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9
5.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
6.. 1.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
7.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
8.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 8.. 9.. 12
9.. 2.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 7.. 8.. 10. 12. 16
[u]10.[/u] 2.. 3.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 7.. 8.. 10. 12. 16
[u]11.[/u] 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9.. 10. 12. 15. 20
[u]12.[/u] 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6.. 9.. 10. 12. 15. 20

Edited by Alvor, 18 March 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Sheraf]

Zoom2136, on 18 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

My ideas to make LRM require “more skills” are the following:

Locking a target would work as it does now. Put your reticle on the target and get a lock after a few seconds on target.

BUT, the quality of the lock would be linked to the time lock has been kept before firing your missile.

The way I would render this is adding another circle that completes itself around the present day reticle.

For standard LRM’s --- Make it a 12 blocks line (3 per quarter or the circle) which mean, for each 1/3 of a second (this could be more or less) that you hold target from getting a lock you gain about 7.6% (1/13^th) in accuracy or tighter grouping of your LRM’s. 100% accuracy would be gained when the 12 blocks are filled and this would give you the same level of grouping that standard LRM’s have now. Basically, you can shoot fast with lower accuracy (i.e.: instant shoot on first target lock gets you 7.6% accuracy, and gets better the longer the target remains locked), or shoot slower with higher accuracy.

For missiles with Artemis --- Make it 4 blocks lines (1 per quarter or the circle) which mean, for each 1/3 of a second (this could be more or less) that you hold target from getting a lock you gain 20% (1/5^th) in accuracy or tighter grouping of your Artemis LRM’s. 100% accuracy would be gained when the 4 blocks are filled and this would give you the same level of grouping that Artemis LRM’s have now. Basically, you can shoot fast with lower accuracy (i.e.: instant shoot on first target lock gets you 20% accuracy, and gets better the longer the target remains locked), or shoot slower with higher accuracy.

Well my 2c

I think LRM is already require a lot of skill to be use effectively. The skill to position yourself in order to support your advancing brawler is very important. New LRM boat will just stay in one place and shoot, and get destroyed quick by the other team.