443 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

However the last issue, of the weight problem with the Dragon requires a more creative solution. I think that perhaps the chassis could benefit most from a special tweak that Vassago Rain mentioned (essentially, mechs that were designed for certain things get bonuses for doing that thing - an Awesome with PPCs gets +10% PPC Damage for example). Giving the Dragon a reduction in the weight of heavy engines may help the chassis. For example, if the Dragon carries an engine larger than a 300, it gets a 10% reduction in the weight of the engine. This would allow the Dragon to act as a flanker since it would actually be able to carry decent firepower while moving fast.

When I first heard about the "mech quirks", this is what I thought we were going to be getting.

[Source Control]

I disagree with the poster. The dragon isn't terrible.... at dying (just kidding... I totally agree).

I actualy love coming up against the Dragon. It's like shooting a one-legged, unarmed commando from behind; it's like a free kill. lol

Seriously though, I do notice that some mechs are to be feared over others. The Dragon is not one to be feared.

[StalaggtIKE]

armyof1, on 18 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Sad but true, versatility and variety in weaponry is generally punished in MWO. The closest to boating you can get is the 4LL 1C. Actually I think I'm going to build it now and run a few matches.

I had fun running a 1C 4xLPLaser for a while. But it wasn't that practical.

[armyof1]

StalaggtIKE, on 18 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

I had fun running a 1C 4xLPLaser for a while. But it wasn't that practical.

I was thinking 4LL might run too hot, but 4LPL? Might as well nail that Dragon down and turn it into a pizza oven

[StalaggtIKE]

Source Control, on 18 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Seriously though, I do notice that some mechs are to be feared over others. The Dragon is not one to be feared.

I actually I feel quite the opposite. I run into so few of them. When I do, I fear that the pilot must really know what he's doing. Thus I prepare for a good fight.

[Trauglodyte]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 18 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I don't agree with this. Max engine (360 vs 315) speed tweak values of 107kph to 86 kph is a BIG difference at 21kph. If you want to round to the nearest heatsink values for your engine min/maxing (250 vs 300), the difference becomes 104kph vs 82 kph, increasing to 22kph.

The thing is, though, that 107kph vs 86kph doesn't mean anything when you've got nowhere to run on a map. Its like the other night when I was in Forrest Colony in my 300 rating Awesome vs an SRM6 Stalker with a much slower engine. I was getting outside of the Stalker's missile range but because of terrain and other enemies, I eventually swung back into range cause he was cutting the angle. All of that ended up with me dieing.

The speed that the Dragon would gain from the 360xl doesn't get the driver anything. And, in fact, it actually screws the driver because now he loses tonnage for weapons while being boxed in. Furthermore, with ES, FF, and an XL engine, it leaves the designer with 16 criticals to use to turn the Dragon into something managable and fierce. So, 360xl w/ ES and FF and 4 DHSs gives you 18.5 tons to build something managable. At that point, you've got to decide between Energy + Missiles or Ballistic + Missiles cause all three won't shake out.

[Roughneck45]

armyof1, on 18 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Sad but true, versatility and variety in weaponry is generally punished in MWO. The closest to boating you can get is the 4LL 1C/Flame. Actually I think I'm going to build it now and run a few matches.

Unfortunatley, you get better heat dissipation in a catapult with 4 LL at the cost of just a few KPH compared to the Dragon.

Gauss, SRM6, 4xMlas still reigns supreme IMO.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 10:28 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

A lot of good observations and analysis so far. I have little to add, I think.

I suppose a thing that will help every "weak" mech in a weight class if we get tonnage instead of merely class based matching. Then a 60 ton Dragon doesn't have to compete with the 65 Catapult. It's still not optimal, and the drawbacks don't go away, entirely, but it will help.

OF course, if there ever is a 60 ton mech with a better layout, it would still leave the Dragon behind, I think.

[Budor]

1C was workable before gauss cannons exploded now its Flame or other chassi imo.

[Valrin]

I have mastered all 3 of the non-hero variants. I love them. They don't have a role currently in competitive play but, as others have stated, perhaps when they start with the 12v12 we'll see the meta change. In any case, playing them in pugs is a blast and I thoroughly enjoy it. No changes needed.

[Gaan Cathal]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 18 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I don't agree with this. Max engine (360 vs 315) speed tweak values of 107kph to 86 kph is a BIG difference at 21kph. If you want to round to the nearest heatsink values for your engine min/maxing (250 vs 300), the difference becomes 104kph vs 82 kph, increasing to 22kph.

Note I didn't say "minor speed difference", I said "minor speed advantage". In real terms, if a Dragon and a Splatcat encounter eachother at 135m (half of Splat range) then the Dragon takes 6.4s to get out of Splat range (actually a bit longer with splash in, but that's vanishing on the 2^nd) assuming they are both already travelling perpendicular and he has no need to maneuver. In that time the Splatcat can fire two volleys minimum and the Dragon need only be slowed by 1.2s worth of maneuvering to allow him a third. This is assuming the worst case scenario for the Catapult - i.e. that he is in a Splatcat. Any Catapult build with a range beyond the hard 270m cap SRMs apply will obviously continue to put damage on the Dragon for a longer period of time.

Thus, while the speed difference is not negligible, the advantage is.

Skyscream Sapphire, on 18 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I do agree with this, though. It's still missing something to be top tier. Maybe not even anything to do with the Dragon itself. For example, maybe a convergence fix would help those using arm mounted ballistics. Maybe an ECM nerf to make the center mounted missile slots more SSRM2 viable. Maybe the SRM splash damage fix to make it compare more favorably to the missile boating mechs surrounding it (Catapult, 4SP, Centbomb). I'm not sure...but it's close. Closer than most people would think.

Tonnage matchmaking would help, as would not having torso-arm split lasers and terrible, terrible hotboxes.

[Gallowglas]

Basically, in order for it to carry a competitive weapon payload with a reasonable speed, you HAVE to take an XL engine. That, coupled with the vulnerable arm mounts simply make it too fragile. In essence, the other heavies are able to pack more punch with fewer vulnerabilities. Against a splatcat in particular, the XL Dragon is basically a free one-shot kill.

I've maxed out three variants and while I had matches where I did exceptionally well, in almost every case it was because people left me alone while focusing on bigger targets. When I start breaking down the numbers, my KDR is more than double in my Cataphract, even with comparable loadouts. Now, it's possible *some* of that is because of me, but a lot is definitely attributable to the chassis. Basically, if you're a good Dragon pilot, I'd assert that you'd probably be a BETTER Catapult or Cataphract pilot.

[xDeityx]

To those defending the Dragon: please keep in mind the principle of Opportunity Cost. Nobody is saying that the Dragon is literally unable to have an impact on the battlefield, so anecdotes of performing well in the Dragon aren't useful. You have to look at how the Dragon stacks up compared to your next best option. Right now, that option is open to every 'mech in the same, so the Dragon is competing with the Atlas even. Back when matchmaking used weight classes, the Dragon's competition was all of the other heavy 'mechs.

[DaZur]

Why?

Simple... the Dragon's hard points are too diverse / balanced and do not lend well to max/maxing (boating) and thus, it's not seen as a serious contender.

[StalaggtIKE]

Possible Fix: Shave down that CT hitbox, or give it a pro for carrying it.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 18 March 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

DaZur, on 18 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

Why?

Simple... the Dragon's hard points are too diverse / balanced and do not lend well to max/maxing (boating) and thus, it's not seen as a serious contender.

No. Do not try to associate this with some silly anti-boating crusade. The Dragon mixes Ballistic and Energy hardpoints, with an occasional splash of missile. The Cataphract mixes the exact same primary hardpoint types and does fine.

[Roughneck45]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

No. Do not try to associate this with some silly anti-boating crusade. The Dragon mixes Ballistic and Energy hardpoints, with an occasional splash of missile. The Cataphract mixes the exact same primary hardpoint types and does fine.

Except the phract can take dual gauss, or boat PPC's with enough heat dissipation to be effective, and i can't remember the last time i saw a phract using a "splash" of missiles lol.

No anti-boating crusade, but that is the exact reason the Dragon is not in the competitive scene. It is not specialized and gets speed as compensation. Most people see that compensation as a downgrade.

[Vassago Rain]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Except the phract can take dual gauss, or boat PPC's with enough heat dissipation to be effective, and i can't remember the last time i saw a phract using a "splash" of missiles lol.

No anti-boating crusade, but that is the exact reason the Dragon is not in the competitive scene. It is not specialized and gets speed as compensation. Most people see that compensation as a downgrade.

But it's not even fast to begin with. It's just a fat medium that brings nothing to the table.

[Kalagaeth Peledaen]

Phalanx100bc, on 18 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Dragons require the most skill to play insofar as manuverability, aiming, heat etc. There have been other threads on Dragons but the most important thing a Dragon player can learn aside from piloting skills is TIMING.

This is not the first mech to pop over the ridgdge or dropship...but it is the mech to flank and come up thier rears when heavies are fully engaed with the main force. It excels at chasing off scouts for your assaults/boats also.

The main problem is with the speed...you may end up at the point of contact before your teamates (besides lights) will and thus find yourself int he middle of the s***. This again is a timing issue (lessened by proper communicaion).

I'll await the 3L and DDC only guys to chime in.

Since you asked so nicely... Most of the time you'll see me in a CQ DDC, I see a dragon come over the hill in my face and generally I perform a "hulk smash" and it goes away,to try it's luck in another match. On rare occasions I find a very skilled pilot that makes me either A) waste half my ammo call for help C) try MY luck in another match.
Nothing wrong with the dragon imo, just folks not wanting to learn new playstyles.

[Trauglodyte]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

No. Do not try to associate this with some silly anti-boating crusade. The Dragon mixes Ballistic and Energy hardpoints, with an occasional splash of missile. The Cataphract mixes the exact same primary hardpoint types and does fine.

You are only partially correct there. Every variant of the Dragon carries missile hard points where as only one variant of the Cataphract carries missiles and it is the least likely variant to be seen on the battlefield. Furthermore, the Cataphract is a slow trudging design built on the concept of a heavy weapons platform. The Dragon, on the other hand, is slightly lighter but is intended to circumvent the front lines and attack from off angles. So, the Cataphract can focus on one or two weapon types and maximize their synergy where as the Dragon has to focus on speed first and then try to find a weapons group that will compliment that goal. You simply do not have enough tonnage and space to go for maximum speed while maintaining heat efficiency and a killer punch. Add on top of that the fact that you can't really focus on any one type of weapon, ballistics are so damned heavy that if you use more than one, you risk losing half of your ordinance when your arm gets chopped.

So, again, the thought process is:

- how fat should I go?
- missiles+ballistics w/ energy shield arm or missiles and energy w/ ballistic shield arm?
- am I going to be able to dump the heat from the above to stay in the fight?

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.