443 replies to this topic

[Stahlkopp]

xDeityx, on 18 March 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

To those defending the Dragon: please keep in mind the principle of Opportunity Cost. Nobody is saying that the Dragon is literally unable to have an impact on the battlefield, so anecdotes of performing well in the Dragon aren't useful. You have to look at how the Dragon stacks up compared to your next best option. Right now, that option is open to every 'mech in the same, so the Dragon is competing with the Atlas even. Back when matchmaking used weight classes, the Dragon's competition was all of the other heavy 'mechs.

I believe, this depends on the style of playing. I prefer the Flame in most cases to the Cents and Hunches, although most of my Cents/Hunches have more Firepower.

Dragons are not considered to go 1 on 1 against other Mech, they are the cavalry. Like this one: http://mwomercs.com/...te-of-the-year/ (I'm proud to be in his clan.)

[slash b slash]

The dragon could use some ECM.

[Vassago Rain]

slash b slash, on 18 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

The dragon could use some ECM.

Surely you mean a nose job?

[Roughneck45]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

But it's not even fast to begin with. It's just a fat medium that brings nothing to the table.

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha including the gauss rifle as a ranged option is nothing to sneeze at.

If i want more speed, ill up the engine, go around 105 kph, and still have a gauss rifle and 4xMlas.

Its not light mech fast, or souped up medium fast, but it can get a higher speed with sufficient firepower than most other mechs when built properly.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[3rdworld]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha is nothing to sneeze at.

If i want more speed, ill up the engine, go around 105 kph, and still have a gauss rifle and 4xMlas.

Its not light mech fast, or souped up medium fast, but it can get a higher speed with sufficient firepower than most other mechs when built properly.

But I can go that fast with that large of an alpha in a medium. So why would I waste a heavy slot or 10 tons on the dragon?

[Roughneck45]

3rdworld, on 18 March 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

But I can go that fast with that large of an alpha in a medium. So why would I waste a heavy slot or 10 tons on the dragon?

More armor?

What medium do you speak of? Because none of them will have a gauss rifle. Im assuming an Mlas SRM6 combo.

The Dragon is more versatile than they are. Once again, that is a great perk for playing solo, but doesn't bring anything to the table for competative play.

Im not trying to say they are viable for competative play, because they are not, im just explaining what they ARE good at.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Artgathan]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha is nothing to sneeze at.

The problem is that a Centurion can run at 98kph, with a standard engine and a 55 alpha.

I agree that the versatility of the Dragon may be it's downfall. However, this simply brings to light the inherent weapon imbalance we've seen in game. If the weapons were overall more balanced relative to one another, the Dragon would probably see a huge performance boost.

Edited by Artgathan, 18 March 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Stahlkopp, on 18 March 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I believe, this depends on the style of playing. I prefer the Flame in most cases to the Cents and Hunches, although most of my Cents/Hunches have more Firepower.

Dragons are not considered to go 1 on 1 against other Mech, they are the cavalry. Like this one: http://mwomercs.com/...te-of-the-year/ (I'm proud to be in his clan.)

That was a nice read. I play my Dragon a lot like this; making sacrifices for the team. Do I get a thanks? No, just listed near the bottom of the scoreboard. At least you thanked him, that means a lot.

[Smeghead87]

It took me ages to find builds that worked for me in my Dragons, and I regretted buying them for a while, but I'm getting better in them now. I only pug though, I wouldn't like to bring them to a competetive match, I'd feel like I was hurting the team by being in one.

[Vassago Rain]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha is nothing to sneeze at.

If i want more speed, ill up the engine, go around 105 kph, and still have a gauss rifle and 4xMlas.

Its not light mech fast, or souped up medium fast, but it can get a higher speed with sufficient firepower than most other mechs when built properly.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f23d254bdca2232

No, it doesn't work like that. I see a giant arm and a giant nose. You're dead before we even make it into medum laser range. Dragons went extinct a long time ago.

[Outlaw]

the biggest issue with the Dragon is that it is one of the "Transitional" weight mechs, anything a Dragon can do, can be done better with a 55 or 65 tonner. The transitional zone has always had issues like this, and it comes mostly from the way the engine weight chart is set up as well as other factors such as gyro and structure weight.

[Shiftypete]

My only experience with the Dragon was when I foolishly bought the 5N thinking i'd be able to do something fun with the 3 ballistic points in the arm.. it just doesn't have the weight to do anything of note. I eventually sold it to buy my K2 which just seemed more versatile overall. A shame really, the 5N in particular just didn't have a usable layout I could find.

[Roughneck45]

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The problem is that a Centurion can run at 98kph, with a standard engine and a 55 alpha.

I agree that the versatility of the Dragon may be it's downfall. However, this simply brings to light the inherent weapon imbalance we've seen in game. If the weapons were overall more balanced relative to one another, the Dragon would probably see a huge performance boost.

Yes it can, but once again, its not going to have that gauss rifle for a high damage long range option, and most likey won't have 4 Mlas to complement it. It will be packing SRMs.

[Shumabot]

Bad hard points and the lightest mech in every weight class is the bad one due to weight class non tonnage based matchmaking.

Edited by Shumabot, 18 March 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

The 5N isn't bad. People don't like it cause everything is in the arms and they're used to/wanting to play with a shield arm.

[Gaan Cathal]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

89.3 KPH with a 300XL and speed tweak with a 50 DMG alpha is nothing to sneeze at.
If i want more speed, ill up the engine, go around 105 kph, and still have a gauss rifle and 4xMlas.

Artgathan, on 18 March 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

The problem is that a Centurion can run at 98kph, with a standard engine and a 55 alpha.

And a 6MLAS Jenner can hit 150kph, and survive longer due to speed/profile, almost certainly putting out more damage over the course of a match. And that isn't really a competitive mech either. If the job is to be a fast flanker that carries a lot of firepower to isolated enemies/lrm boats/into fast response for saves, the Jenner does it better with 35T than the Dragon does with 60T. That is it's problem.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 18 March 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Allister Rathe]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f23d254bdca2232

No, it doesn't work like that. I see a giant arm and a giant nose. You're dead before we even make it into medum laser range. Dragons went extinct a long time ago.

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I don't think it's extinct. Perhaps on the verge, but not entirely so, simply because min/maxers can find a way to be more effective in another chassis. It comes down to preference. I like to pilot the best 'Mech that I can, like everyone else does, but just because the competitive 8v8 community looks down their nose at the Dragon doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way.


I think the main "problem" of the Dragon can be boiled down to what people have already mentioned: implementation. Because of its role as a jack of all trades in terms of hardpoint loadout, it can be hard to utilize well in a setting where everyone else is boating for the maximum alpha possible (I'm looking at you A1's). It can be hard for some players to utilize all of the Dragon's hardpoints and advantages in speed or armor to its best ability and they merely find it easier to use one or two weapon systems en masse as opposed to covering their bases across the board.

I personally pilot a Flame with a 350XL, 4 ML's, an AC/10 and an SRM6 and I have a fair amount of success in it because of the amount of mobility that engine can give you and the pinpoint accuracy of the lasers combined with a torso mounted AC. That being said, I can understand why people feel it's an underpowered 'Mech, because it requires you to constantly assess the situation you find yourself in and determine if its best to engage or back off.

Chances are against an A1 with SRM's, a Phract with a pair of Gauss or a couple of boated UAC/5's you'd be in trouble against a pilot of equal skill, but the advantage of the Dragon is being agile, decently armored, and with enough weapons that you can be mobile support for your team and not a one man army like many people attempt to play. It's considered poor because it can't so readily capitalize on weapon convergence in this game like so many other successful builds. So rather than it being underpowered because it's a "horrible" design, I see it as being more a factor of game balance and player implementation than anything.

[Roughneck45]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f23d254bdca2232

No, it doesn't work like that. I see a giant arm and a giant nose. You're dead before we even make it into medum laser range. Dragons went extinct a long time ago.

Maybe for you Vas.

Ive been taking the 1-C and Flame for all of my pugging matches since upgrades were implemented and ive had great success with both of them, and they are my favorite mechs.

Im not arguing for its viability in competative play, but it is a fun mech to play. I know for a FACT that i have killed you twice while in my flame . In Mlas range too, maybe I have a stealth nose

Maybe you just don't have what it takes for the way of the Dragon.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Allister Rathe, on 18 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Words.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...40e61faf6e05442

Here's the stock 4SP, aka the camel. It does everything you claim your dragon does, except better. It doesn't require a 350 XL, either, and doesn't have a big nose to fill with missiles.

[Jman5]

I'm now convinced that some of the Dragon Variants are horribly undervalued at the moment. Before, I had only really seen random pugs playing them, but once I saw them in the hands of experienced pilots it was a real eye-opener. We're talking consistently high damage, and survivability. (most likely because people ignore them for bigger targets)

Let's face it: A Catapult A1 Splatcat has massive damage potential. However, in the current game, everyone and their mother will try to focus them down any chance they get. They are scary short range mechs that even pugs will instinctively focus down. Unlike the Dragon, Catapults are high priority targets.

Now that weight balance is more loose and not always 1:1 by chassis, it's not really a big deal bringing a dragon instead of a medium.

Edited by Jman5, 18 March 2013 - 11:19 AM.