I wouldn't say it's a terrible Mech. The Cataphract is just better. Unless you want larger than normal engines for your weight, you're probably better off with a Cataphract. It has the same issue the Awesome has, where it is simply inferior to other, better, Mechs in its weight class. Matchmaking still doesn't filter based on weight either.
9
Why Is The Dragon Terrible?
Started by Artgathan, Mar 18 2013 09:12 AM
443 replies to this topic
#222
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:21 PM
I like the dragon. It doesn't have much of a place at the moment in competitive play, but it is definitely a fun 'Mech to PUG in when my team isn't on.
#223
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:26 PM
Why are hardpoints that are scattered across a mech considered bad?
You can have hardpoints scattered across the torsos and they all fire at the torso crosshair, How is that hard to aim?
That is what I do not understand, how does scattered across locations make it hard to aim?
Unless, mixed weaponry with scattered across sections means you can't just alpha strike onto a single point, which then supports my theory that weapon convergence is all out of wack.
You can have hardpoints scattered across the torsos and they all fire at the torso crosshair, How is that hard to aim?
That is what I do not understand, how does scattered across locations make it hard to aim?
Unless, mixed weaponry with scattered across sections means you can't just alpha strike onto a single point, which then supports my theory that weapon convergence is all out of wack.
#224
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:40 PM
Zyllos, on 18 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:
Why are hardpoints that are scattered across a mech considered bad?
You can have hardpoints scattered across the torsos and they all fire at the torso crosshair, How is that hard to aim?
That is what I do not understand, how does scattered across locations make it hard to aim?
Unless, mixed weaponry with scattered across sections means you can't just alpha strike onto a single point, which then supports my theory that weapon convergence is all out of wack.
You can have hardpoints scattered across the torsos and they all fire at the torso crosshair, How is that hard to aim?
That is what I do not understand, how does scattered across locations make it hard to aim?
Unless, mixed weaponry with scattered across sections means you can't just alpha strike onto a single point, which then supports my theory that weapon convergence is all out of wack.
Because lasers and ballistics and missiles all target differently. So they all need their own weapon groups, making the mech harder to use compared to a mech that only has to worry about targeting for one type of weapon.
The main problem with the Dragon is that it doesn't have a powerful alpha strike, at least compared to it's competitors. It relies on doing sustained damage, which is penalized in the current heat system. Much easier to kill a mech in 2 alpha strikes with an A1 than keep up fire and actually manage heat.
#225
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:40 PM
The Dragon is fine. It's gonna get buffed eventually anyways. It's very good at being able to maneuver to positions to put decent damage in precise locations, plus having the speed to get away from A1s and return fire at the same time, 350 XL, sure he'll take a hit or two but it won't kill him and he'll probably still have enough armor left over for more fights. The hardpoints are fine. If you're wanting to boat SRMs, the Dragon is not for you. At this point in time it'd be OP, if the dragon could boat SRMs.
I pug mostly and I typically do work in my Dragon 1N. Top damage, kills, etc. You just have to know how to play it. I don't see much reason for the Dragon not being competitive except for the fact that you can't boat everyone's favorite weapon the SRM. And if you do well with Dragons you might carry the opinion that SRMs are overrated.
I pug mostly and I typically do work in my Dragon 1N. Top damage, kills, etc. You just have to know how to play it. I don't see much reason for the Dragon not being competitive except for the fact that you can't boat everyone's favorite weapon the SRM. And if you do well with Dragons you might carry the opinion that SRMs are overrated.
#226
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:42 PM
Desist, on 18 March 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:
The Dragon is fine. It's gonna get buffed eventually anyways. It's very good at being able to maneuver to positions to put decent damage in precise locations, plus having the speed to get away from A1s and return fire at the same time, 350 XL, sure he'll take a hit or two but it won't kill him and he'll probably still have enough armor left over for more fights. The hardpoints are fine. If you're wanting to boat SRMs, the Dragon is not for you. At this point in time it'd be OP, if the dragon could boat SRMs.
I pug mostly and I typically do work in my Dragon 1N. Top damage, kills, etc. You just have to know how to play it. I don't see much reason for the Dragon not being competitive except for the fact that you can't boat everyone's favorite weapon the SRM. And if you do well with Dragons you might carry the opinion that SRMs are overrated.
I pug mostly and I typically do work in my Dragon 1N. Top damage, kills, etc. You just have to know how to play it. I don't see much reason for the Dragon not being competitive except for the fact that you can't boat everyone's favorite weapon the SRM. And if you do well with Dragons you might carry the opinion that SRMs are overrated.
Not overrated. Overpowered. Maybe when they remove the splash damage in April it will help the mechs that can't boat them.
#227
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:43 PM
Having mastered 3 dragons I can say it has the spirit of a medium with slightly more armor. Every dragon has a ballistic, energy, and missile hard port. The problem is ballistics take a lot of tons to mount and leaves you with very little left for lasers and missiles.
The dragon is called a all around mech, that doesn't excel in any one area.
One thing that would help is if ac2s, and ac5s received a reduction of there tonnage. This would probably cause more problems then it solves with in the game. The other thing that might help is to increase the space within the ct to allow larger missile to be placed.
The dragon is called a all around mech, that doesn't excel in any one area.
One thing that would help is if ac2s, and ac5s received a reduction of there tonnage. This would probably cause more problems then it solves with in the game. The other thing that might help is to increase the space within the ct to allow larger missile to be placed.
#228
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:45 PM
Its not really terrible its more of a jack of all trades mech giving you a mix of cannon, SRM or LRM and Laser. Its more in the setup.
The last time I built a dragon I nerfed the movement to 64kph,and boosted the weapon load I think I went with a standard eng. to for survival.
The last time I built a dragon I nerfed the movement to 64kph,and boosted the weapon load I think I went with a standard eng. to for survival.
Edited by Corbon Zackery, 18 March 2013 - 05:59 PM.
#229
Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:49 PM
The hardpoint issue is this, Zyllos:
On the non-flame variants, the four energy hardpoints are generally spread 2 to an arm, 2 to the torso. One of the Dragon's strengths is it's massive arm movement range, but this means that if you were to bring, say, 4 Large Lasers, you'd struggle to get all 4 converging on the same pinpoint.
Generally, it's best to have your energy hardpoints all (or mostly) arm OR torso, not spread between them. This is what makes the Flame the best DRG chassis: All 4 energy hardpoints are in the arms allowing precision laser fire, while the ballistic hardpoint is in the torso.
Still the Flame suffers from a CT-mounted missile hardpoint, which with it's 5 tubes is pretty limiting. That's more a problem of the current missile-heavy metagame, however, and will be less significant come the splash damage removal and (potential) resulting missile nerf.
I'm strongly of the opinion that the Flame is a damn good mech, IF you run it fast. XL300 minimum, XL350 ideally. If you're not going for speed, go Catapult or Cataphract. It's still not equal to an A1, but what is?
The Dragon is a rewarding mech to play, though. It takes finesse, and most importantly timing. You need to know when to hold in and cut people up, and when to get the hell out of dodge. In the case of the Flame, those four arm mounted lasers and an XL350 make tearing lights apart ridiculously easy and fun. 2 LL/2 ML/SRMs vs. a 3L is a joy - with the 350, you can turn fast enough to keep him in your sights at all times, and at 104kph, it's very hard for him to disengage if there isn't a lot of cover nearby.
I really hope the Dragon quirks help some, though, because it's plainly not as good as some other options, as has been noted previously.
On the non-flame variants, the four energy hardpoints are generally spread 2 to an arm, 2 to the torso. One of the Dragon's strengths is it's massive arm movement range, but this means that if you were to bring, say, 4 Large Lasers, you'd struggle to get all 4 converging on the same pinpoint.
Generally, it's best to have your energy hardpoints all (or mostly) arm OR torso, not spread between them. This is what makes the Flame the best DRG chassis: All 4 energy hardpoints are in the arms allowing precision laser fire, while the ballistic hardpoint is in the torso.
Still the Flame suffers from a CT-mounted missile hardpoint, which with it's 5 tubes is pretty limiting. That's more a problem of the current missile-heavy metagame, however, and will be less significant come the splash damage removal and (potential) resulting missile nerf.
I'm strongly of the opinion that the Flame is a damn good mech, IF you run it fast. XL300 minimum, XL350 ideally. If you're not going for speed, go Catapult or Cataphract. It's still not equal to an A1, but what is?
The Dragon is a rewarding mech to play, though. It takes finesse, and most importantly timing. You need to know when to hold in and cut people up, and when to get the hell out of dodge. In the case of the Flame, those four arm mounted lasers and an XL350 make tearing lights apart ridiculously easy and fun. 2 LL/2 ML/SRMs vs. a 3L is a joy - with the 350, you can turn fast enough to keep him in your sights at all times, and at 104kph, it's very hard for him to disengage if there isn't a lot of cover nearby.
I really hope the Dragon quirks help some, though, because it's plainly not as good as some other options, as has been noted previously.
#230
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:49 PM
I own a Flame. I am confident in saying it's my most terrifying 'Mech, even though I have a D-DC and a 3D.
The Flame itself is amazing. 4 arm mounted energy points, a ballistic in the torso, and the missile hardpoint in the center isn't as useless as people make it out to be. I use 4 LLs and a 320 XL engine, but other options are 4 ML + Gauss + SRM4, or builds using an AC20.
The other Dragons? Bad 'Mechs.
A common trend between them is the arm ballistic slot(s), which isn't the best of ideas. For brawling purposes, an AC20 would work well, but it can't be mounted in any Dragon arm. A Gauss, maybe, but that leaves little room for other weapons that could compliment it. I've heard the 3AC2 build is effective, but then again, it's effective compared to other Dragon sets.
The other flaw is the lack of convergence between energy hardpoints. It could work well as a fast PPC sniper, but the TBT and CTF can both mount similar firepower and speed, with the bonus of JJs and better weapon convergence.
I suppose it's not so much "bad," as it is "outclassed." It has too poor weapon convergence for sniping, and bad hardpoint layout for brawling. The CT isn't actually as easy to hit as many people believe. It could be improved by moving/adding hardpoints, but it would probably still be overlooked for TBTs, CATs, and CTFs. The only thing that could set it far apart from these other 'Mechs would be ECM, but that's both a lazy fix and a potential for massive QQ on the forums.
The Flame itself is amazing. 4 arm mounted energy points, a ballistic in the torso, and the missile hardpoint in the center isn't as useless as people make it out to be. I use 4 LLs and a 320 XL engine, but other options are 4 ML + Gauss + SRM4, or builds using an AC20.
The other Dragons? Bad 'Mechs.
A common trend between them is the arm ballistic slot(s), which isn't the best of ideas. For brawling purposes, an AC20 would work well, but it can't be mounted in any Dragon arm. A Gauss, maybe, but that leaves little room for other weapons that could compliment it. I've heard the 3AC2 build is effective, but then again, it's effective compared to other Dragon sets.
The other flaw is the lack of convergence between energy hardpoints. It could work well as a fast PPC sniper, but the TBT and CTF can both mount similar firepower and speed, with the bonus of JJs and better weapon convergence.
I suppose it's not so much "bad," as it is "outclassed." It has too poor weapon convergence for sniping, and bad hardpoint layout for brawling. The CT isn't actually as easy to hit as many people believe. It could be improved by moving/adding hardpoints, but it would probably still be overlooked for TBTs, CATs, and CTFs. The only thing that could set it far apart from these other 'Mechs would be ECM, but that's both a lazy fix and a potential for massive QQ on the forums.
#231
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:57 PM
Allow head mounted Artemis for CT mounted missiles ala TT.
Use average global match score over past week as the BV balancing factor.
Bring back (better) collisions.
Add a splash of accel/decel/twist speed buffage.
Keep making big maps.
Dragon fixed.
350XL engine is Dragons greatest strength, that's 58 cooling if stuffed with DHS, before you even need to start looking for spare crit slots...
Use average global match score over past week as the BV balancing factor.
Bring back (better) collisions.
Add a splash of accel/decel/twist speed buffage.
Keep making big maps.
Dragon fixed.
350XL engine is Dragons greatest strength, that's 58 cooling if stuffed with DHS, before you even need to start looking for spare crit slots...
Edited by Murku, 18 March 2013 - 05:59 PM.
#232
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:12 PM
Wintersdark, on 18 March 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:
The hardpoint issue is this, Zyllos:
On the non-flame variants, the four energy hardpoints are generally spread 2 to an arm, 2 to the torso. One of the Dragon's strengths is it's massive arm movement range, but this means that if you were to bring, say, 4 Large Lasers, you'd struggle to get all 4 converging on the same pinpoint.
Generally, it's best to have your energy hardpoints all (or mostly) arm OR torso, not spread between them. This is what makes the Flame the best DRG chassis: All 4 energy hardpoints are in the arms allowing precision laser fire, while the ballistic hardpoint is in the torso.
Still the Flame suffers from a CT-mounted missile hardpoint, which with it's 5 tubes is pretty limiting. That's more a problem of the current missile-heavy metagame, however, and will be less significant come the splash damage removal and (potential) resulting missile nerf.
I'm strongly of the opinion that the Flame is a damn good mech, IF you run it fast. XL300 minimum, XL350 ideally. If you're not going for speed, go Catapult or Cataphract. It's still not equal to an A1, but what is?
The Dragon is a rewarding mech to play, though. It takes finesse, and most importantly timing. You need to know when to hold in and cut people up, and when to get the hell out of dodge. In the case of the Flame, those four arm mounted lasers and an XL350 make tearing lights apart ridiculously easy and fun. 2 LL/2 ML/SRMs vs. a 3L is a joy - with the 350, you can turn fast enough to keep him in your sights at all times, and at 104kph, it's very hard for him to disengage if there isn't a lot of cover nearby.
I really hope the Dragon quirks help some, though, because it's plainly not as good as some other options, as has been noted previously.
On the non-flame variants, the four energy hardpoints are generally spread 2 to an arm, 2 to the torso. One of the Dragon's strengths is it's massive arm movement range, but this means that if you were to bring, say, 4 Large Lasers, you'd struggle to get all 4 converging on the same pinpoint.
Generally, it's best to have your energy hardpoints all (or mostly) arm OR torso, not spread between them. This is what makes the Flame the best DRG chassis: All 4 energy hardpoints are in the arms allowing precision laser fire, while the ballistic hardpoint is in the torso.
Still the Flame suffers from a CT-mounted missile hardpoint, which with it's 5 tubes is pretty limiting. That's more a problem of the current missile-heavy metagame, however, and will be less significant come the splash damage removal and (potential) resulting missile nerf.
I'm strongly of the opinion that the Flame is a damn good mech, IF you run it fast. XL300 minimum, XL350 ideally. If you're not going for speed, go Catapult or Cataphract. It's still not equal to an A1, but what is?
The Dragon is a rewarding mech to play, though. It takes finesse, and most importantly timing. You need to know when to hold in and cut people up, and when to get the hell out of dodge. In the case of the Flame, those four arm mounted lasers and an XL350 make tearing lights apart ridiculously easy and fun. 2 LL/2 ML/SRMs vs. a 3L is a joy - with the 350, you can turn fast enough to keep him in your sights at all times, and at 104kph, it's very hard for him to disengage if there isn't a lot of cover nearby.
I really hope the Dragon quirks help some, though, because it's plainly not as good as some other options, as has been noted previously.
Good post.
Doesn't this point to underlying fundamental issues of MWO in regards to weapon convergence though?
Just because the hardpoint locations doesn't allow for an easily way to converge weaponry, where other mechs can easily do this, shouldn't mean that the mech is at a disadvantage. This is what I am seeing is a major flaw with PGI's current implementation of weapon convergence.
Edited by Zyllos, 19 March 2013 - 05:49 AM.
#233
Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:44 PM
Zyllos, on 18 March 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:
Good post.
Doesn't this point to underlying fundamentals of MWO in regards to weapon convergence though?
Just because the hardpoint locations doesn't allow for an easily way to converge weaponry, where other mechs can easily do this, means that the mech is at a disadvantage. This is what I am seeing is a major flaw with PGI's current implementation of weapon convergence.
There are a lot of problems with weapon convergence. It lead to armor doubling, all sorts of weapon balance issues, etc. At a basic level, TT is designed around hitting random locations with each weapon, and that's where we got our base weapon stats and heat balancing system from.
HRR Insanity makes a very good post about this in his rather trollishly titled "MWO IS DOOOOOOOMED (with regards to weapon convergence)" or some such thread. I could search for it, but I'm too lazy. It's in general, and easy to find if you step back a page or three.
EDIT: It's here - http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/
There's not really much to be done about it now, though, it is what it is. There's lots of suggested solutions (Insanity suggests several), but generally speaking any of them - if they were to be implemented - needed to be implemented in closed beta, because they lead to a very fundamental gameplay change that would make the QQ over ECM look like a gentle spring rain.
So, now, all that can really be done is iterate, and gradually tweak things that don't work well in the system we have. Hopefully Quirks will help here. I'd like to see the regular Dragon variants gain a torso twist speed increase (to help line up arms+torso, mitigating the critical flaw of those chassis), while the Flame could gain, say, acceleration or some such. Tweaks are really the best place to help make the Dragon shine, as they're simply not going to move hardpoints around or anything so drastic at this point.
Edited by Wintersdark, 18 March 2013 - 06:47 PM.
#235
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 06:58 PM
Desist, on 18 March 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:
The Dragon is fine. It's gonna get buffed eventually anyways.
The dragon is fine, but it doesnt need a buff. All other chassis need to be nerfed in line with the dragon. Every mech will then be fun and challenging to play.
#236
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:06 PM
ppl say the dragon is a trash chassis... i say they just have not adapted to its proper playstyle. it is a bigger medium with more armor but with the same firepower. if u think the CT is just a burden, i half agree. the advantage of having a big CT is ppl just focus on that part alone which means u can bring an XL engine and have either faster speed or bigger weapons. its also not like u cant protect the CT, u can shield it by torso twisting and using ur arms as shields. sure they wont last that long but its better than nothing.
a dragons playstyle is not to brawl toe to toe against any mech (unless hes got no choice). its a flanker, a hit & runner, fire & forget then repeat, it can also chase light mechs for a little while and it can play as a fast sniper too. the dragons weapon layout and hardpoints dont really have firepower in mind but rather focused, direct fire, accurate weapons. u may have to map out up to 5 weapon groups on it but its not as hard as u think it is since u dont need to hold the button for lasers at all and the srms are really just backup jabbers.
not to boast here but i have been at the top of the match list a lot of times on all the dragons ive used. namely the 1N, 1C and FLAME. i find that the 5N isnt really my kind of variant and the FANG isnt really cut out for my money. but the other 3 i mentioned have been veryx3 succesful mechs for me. i used to run centurions and loved them with a passion cos they were cheap to repair and rearm but after R&R was removed the dragons seemed just too good to pass on. 1 reason is that i cant bring an XL on a centurion with its oversized side torsos.... it was just suicidal for me.
TLDR: if u like a more armored medium that can flank and still have good firepower, the dragon is for u. and again ITS NOT A BRAWLER. protect the CT by torso twisting like crazy. dont bring slow engines on it. a slow dragon is a dead dragon.
a dragons playstyle is not to brawl toe to toe against any mech (unless hes got no choice). its a flanker, a hit & runner, fire & forget then repeat, it can also chase light mechs for a little while and it can play as a fast sniper too. the dragons weapon layout and hardpoints dont really have firepower in mind but rather focused, direct fire, accurate weapons. u may have to map out up to 5 weapon groups on it but its not as hard as u think it is since u dont need to hold the button for lasers at all and the srms are really just backup jabbers.
not to boast here but i have been at the top of the match list a lot of times on all the dragons ive used. namely the 1N, 1C and FLAME. i find that the 5N isnt really my kind of variant and the FANG isnt really cut out for my money. but the other 3 i mentioned have been veryx3 succesful mechs for me. i used to run centurions and loved them with a passion cos they were cheap to repair and rearm but after R&R was removed the dragons seemed just too good to pass on. 1 reason is that i cant bring an XL on a centurion with its oversized side torsos.... it was just suicidal for me.
TLDR: if u like a more armored medium that can flank and still have good firepower, the dragon is for u. and again ITS NOT A BRAWLER. protect the CT by torso twisting like crazy. dont bring slow engines on it. a slow dragon is a dead dragon.
#237
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:10 PM
Most people have already said it ... there are some things that the Dragon is great for, but right now, it appears, those things don't win "competitive" matches.
I think of it like this ... a bunch of Texas boys invite the European exchange student out for a pick-up game of football ... he shows up in loose shorts and shin guards, ready to run for an hour, maneuver, and exploit weaknesses in position that develop over time ... the Texas boys are ready to line up and pound each other over and over again a few seconds at a time, with the occaisional run for the end zone.
The Dragon can be a great player, but not in the game we're playing right now.
I think of it like this ... a bunch of Texas boys invite the European exchange student out for a pick-up game of football ... he shows up in loose shorts and shin guards, ready to run for an hour, maneuver, and exploit weaknesses in position that develop over time ... the Texas boys are ready to line up and pound each other over and over again a few seconds at a time, with the occaisional run for the end zone.
The Dragon can be a great player, but not in the game we're playing right now.
#238
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:27 PM
The Dragon is bad because other mechs do the same thing better. Centurion-A has more firepower (55) and goes faster (98kph) with a standard engine. And the whole reason the Cent-A has so much more firepower is because... dun dun dun... SRM6s are way overpowered.
Dragon can't compete because it can't use multiple SRM6s. On either side of its tonnage bracket... youve got the Cent-A or the Catapult-A1 which can both boat SRM6s and have way more firepower than the Dragon.
Until SRM6s are balanced, the Dragon is going to be blatantly inferior to anything with SRM6s.
Dragon can't compete because it can't use multiple SRM6s. On either side of its tonnage bracket... youve got the Cent-A or the Catapult-A1 which can both boat SRM6s and have way more firepower than the Dragon.
Until SRM6s are balanced, the Dragon is going to be blatantly inferior to anything with SRM6s.
Edited by Khobai, 18 March 2013 - 08:57 PM.
#239
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:54 PM
The dragon is 'bad' because it's expensive and balanced.
The giant central torso makes taking an XL engine a guilt free experience, but unless you have a big engine that nose is just a liability. A big engine means less room for guns which means you need the XL engine which means a Dragon costs another 5million on top of the entry price to be halfway competitive.
Then there is the fact that it has a balanced loadout, ballistics, missiles and lasers, all laid out so you can't boat with any of them. Because it can't really boat anything then it can't excel at anything and when people are looking for new mechs they probably aren't looking for a 'do-everything-sort-of-well' playstyle.
I love my dragons because 60-65 ton is my sweetspot, but there really are a limited amount of things you can actually do with it because of the restrictive (and in the case of the 5N, Obnoxious) hardpoints and the giant central torso. As soon as knockdowns come back though the dragon will get a new lease on life, because a 60 ton monster tackling you at 105kmph is going to hurt.
The giant central torso makes taking an XL engine a guilt free experience, but unless you have a big engine that nose is just a liability. A big engine means less room for guns which means you need the XL engine which means a Dragon costs another 5million on top of the entry price to be halfway competitive.
Then there is the fact that it has a balanced loadout, ballistics, missiles and lasers, all laid out so you can't boat with any of them. Because it can't really boat anything then it can't excel at anything and when people are looking for new mechs they probably aren't looking for a 'do-everything-sort-of-well' playstyle.
I love my dragons because 60-65 ton is my sweetspot, but there really are a limited amount of things you can actually do with it because of the restrictive (and in the case of the 5N, Obnoxious) hardpoints and the giant central torso. As soon as knockdowns come back though the dragon will get a new lease on life, because a 60 ton monster tackling you at 105kmph is going to hurt.
Edited by CheeseThief, 18 March 2013 - 09:06 PM.
#240
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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:59 PM
Quote
The dragon is 'bad' because it's expensive and balanced.
cost has nothing to do with balance. its still bad even if you have 200 million cbills like I do.
Centurion-A has 55 firepower and goes 98kph with a std engine... try doing that in a Dragon. You cant. because it cant use srm6s.
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