673 replies to this topic

[Tabrias07]

Fix sounds nice, and this method of calculating splash damage makes MUCH more sense.

Thank you for the clear and concise post explaining everything.

[Wintersdark]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 March 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

Again, I haven't tried it, but doing more damage to smaller targets doesn't seem like a balanced mechanic... no matter how much I want to squash them.

They won't take more.

They'll take more per missile but smaller targets are actually hit by far fewer missiles. This is easily tested:

Note your LRM stats.

Find a friend with a commando, group up, fire a volley or three of LRM's at him.

Don't fire any more LRM's in the match.

Note your LRM stats again, see how many hit.

Now, get your buddy (or another one) to grab, say, and Atlas and repeat this test.

The Atlas will take far more hits.

Thus, the weapon tends to balance out to doing more even damage against all targets.

[Zyllos]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Doing this exposed a problem with the grouping/clustering of missiles. We now have a high percentage of any incoming missile targeting the CT. This is BAD.

How is this possible unless it's coded only target the CT when splash is removed? Unless what's happening is that when splash is added, that damage is being distributed across the hit locations, totaling a single LRM across all hit locations, instead of dealing full damage + splash damage.

If missiles are only dealing damage to the location they land on, and removing splash only makes them hit the CT for more damage than with splash, doesn't this point so some extremely odd effects going on?

A LRM/5 that all hits the CT should deal 0.7 * 5 = 3.5 damage. With splash, that CT will still be taking 3.5 damage but the LT/RT and maybe legs should take a few points of damage along with it.

Reading your post, you make it sound like with splash enabled, the above example does 3.5 damage but with splash disabled, it all of sudden deals > 3.5 damage.

Could you explain that this is indeed for what your saying or am I misreading this?

But, beyond that statement, I currently like the values and feel of missiles so far. Also, I like the idea that being really close with SRMs will cause you to take splash damage back on yourself if your really close to your target and hitting with SRMs. I am not sure if this function was intended or a side effect of some change.

***EDIT: The new values are indeed making LRMs feel pretty weak. LRMs do not feel like a threat. I would suggest make them 1.0 damage with 50% splash damage. SRMs/SSRMs I have not had enough play time with so I can not comment directly on them. After playing with SRMs/SSRMs, I also think they have been reduced by a bit too much. I say up the SRM damage back to 2.0 but only have 25% splash. Thus, both missiles splash 0.5 maximum damage to another section.***

***EDIT2: Ok, I am not sure now...some games they feel like they are doing extremely well. Then other games they just do absolutely nothing, and feeling like you need to put 3 to 4 tons of LRMs on a target to significantly damage a target.

I also feel that TAG, NARC, and Artemis is going to play a larger role in missile use, which is good. But the problem is that TAG has too much range now and NARC is too weak. Artemis feels about right. And with the upcoming changes to ECM, this is going to cause more unbalances to missiles again.

Edited by Zyllos, 22 March 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Max Immelmann]

so why did you NOT hotfix the insane headbox for the jager mech. in my 1st 12 games, i died 11 times to headshots! seems like a hotfix is in order here too.

[Filth Pig]

So apparently if you whine enough about something on the forums, the Devs will take notice and nerf the game for you....

A little advice... Go about half way in between what it was, and what it is now and MONEY!!!

[Forestal]

My heart sank, when I read a reply saying how glad he is to be able to "tank" through 2-3 volleys of lrms without dying... there goes your tactical mech-warfare simulation, PGI, so much for all your terrain work on Tourmaline Desert.

But I still love ya, PGI-- for resolutely testing and tweaking the game instead of wholesale caving to the rabid and vocal minority.. yes, I'm gonna join the ranters in their solipsism, and claim that their rants are invalid because I didn't experience "lrm-fest".

Though you guys do get points deducted from not catching the "mystery missile" damage (how the "spread+splash" would interact) before releasing the March 19th patch.

Edited by Forestal, 21 March 2013 - 04:55 PM.

[Noobzorz]

This is the kind of turnaround time we've been looking for.

(Sorry to you missile hogs; but this was waaaay overdue.)

[Wendigo Vendetta]

The aim here is to avoid concentarted damage and achieve an even spread of damage with an explosive missile.
Allow me to suggest a radical, but extremely balanced approach. Lets make LRM damage 0.15 with a burst of 10. No drop off in damage until it stops entirely beyond 10. This would effectively produce 1.05 points of damage per missile spread evenly across the entire mech.

[Forestal]

Divine Decoy, on 21 March 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

PERFECT SUGGESTION!!! Something like this for LRMs would be great, they are what.... heat guided.

Err, nope-- actually try using lrms before you suggest any changes for them.

They are remotely guided/targeted (via sci-fi/magic radio-frequency) by the launchers of lrms-- that's why there is a need for the launcher to CONSISTENTLY maintain target-lock via one way or another (line-of-sight, spotters, tag, narc, ecm-disrupt, etc.)

Edited by Forestal, 21 March 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Random Incarnate]

The splash damage feels right - I don't face my left arm to someone anymore and lose my right arm and right torso, and half my leg armour. At the same time, the overall damage potential feels a bit low - I've hit some targets hard and direct, and it just felt like it did nothing (Cats and Stalkers), and I've been hit in the back by quite a few volleys with low rear armour, and it didn't even open it up.

My current concern is that it'll nerf the stock builds further, mostly the ones sporting a single small LRM. That remains to be seen, I've got a balanced DDC build I'll have to try..

[Kahoumono]

Thanks for the quick fix. It feels like damage has swung completely the opposite direction and are now too weak unless you stack missles. I have nothing else remotely positive to say...

[Henry Pride]

Tried the hotfix, love it...

[Dragonslayer Ornstein]

Death Dealer 199, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

So what gets nerfed next? AC 20's do to much spot damage i want them nerfed.

Even though it is sarcasm, that makes no sense. Why nerf a weapon that was never buffed to begin with? The LRM damage buff vs TT values was a 180% damage buff. That would be the same as if the AC/20 dealt 36 damage per shot. When the AC/20 deals that much damage per shot in MWO, I'll be willing to listen to suggestions for a nerf.

The better question is why people think that LRMs and SRMs are so super special that they deserved a huge damage buff when none of the other weapons got one?

[Nacon]

FIX THE AMMO.

Ammo still do internal damage at 1.7 (LRM) and 2.5 (SRM).

However, please increase the ammo supply per ton to make up for this loss of damage effect.
So far I'm ok with the damage and the splash effect. Just please don't forget the ammo.

Edited by Nacon, 21 March 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Rixsaw]

Look, the problem you had with the LRM's& SRM's was splash dmg. So fix the splash dmg. Why would you also nerf the Dmg? Rule 1 in troubleshooting, change 1 thing at a time. That way you know what fixed it when you finally fix something. If you had left the DMG where it was, and simply nerfed the splash dmg, it WOULD have solved the problem.

Instead you just broke every mech in the game that runs missiles.

Fix the Head Hit Box on the Jagermech.

Fix internal Armor on the Guass Rifle.

Return SRM and LRM dmg to 1.8 and 2.5 without splash dammage.

Never Ever Ever make 2 changes at once. Every time you do, you break everything. You did the same thing with Guass, when you nerfed internal armor and gave it explosive effect. Now its completely useless. Undo one of those 2 changes and its useful again.

All my guys are now bitching that the SRM's were nerfed to sh|t, now we get to wait 2-3 months for you guys to figure out you farked it up and change it back? Heck no FIX IT NOW!

[Nincompoopery]

This "fix" was nothing but a kick in the family-jewels. I have played multiple rounds, and the damage is a joke. Nobody is going to sit their and ignore a full load of AC or gauss or PPCs, but mechs WILL now ignore multiple rounds from two LRM 20 with no cover. Why? Because they can!

And then we get the extra kick from the SRM nerf! Gee, thanks! Time to strip off all the SRM.

You guys succeeded in addressing all the crying about LRM, SRM, and lights with SSRM with one swing of the sledgehammer.

But nothing about the complete shutdown of LRM from multiple ECM. Or how about taking off the Tag nerf?
This was a horrible and stupid waste of my time. Thanks for making the week end on a sour note.

[WVAnonymous]

Thontor, on 21 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

I'm generally terrible with LRMs.. And didn't play much more than a few games the past couple days in my Gaussaphract...

I just spent a couple million c-bills to build a 3 LRM15 D-DC ... as much as I hate it when people bring those things.. i really don't have any other mech to test LRMs with

let's just say, they feel right.. I got a couple kills.. still tore armor off of mechs quite efficiently.. even though my damage numbers sucked lol... i blame that more on my 22.58% accuracy with them (yeah i suck at LRMs)

so when I was hitting mechs, and saw the LRMs impacting.. the damage looked good to me.. and felt pretty powerful... but I just didn't hit very often LOL

Can't really play in the office, but I just put 210 LRMs on the Atlas in the testing grounds before it died. I think that's a few too many direct hit missiles than appropriate. Any mech that stands in the open and gets hit 7 times by 2 LRM15 + Artemis from 600 meters should be... a little more dead?

[Sixnations]

Ok just wanted to do quick drops to see it for myself... I agree something had to be done with missles however, my opinion dmg should be 1 for lrm and 2 for srm... by nerfing missles for the 2nd time b/c they were way over powerful a few months ago you will bring it back to the stone age of closed beta however, we have pop tarts, ppc's that move as fast as AC 2's and ppl are getting sniped out the gate when a match begins on the smaller maps... basically you are encouraging ppl to run the dual guass kittys, 4 er ppc w/ guass atlases... 2 ppc/guass mets.... and ppc/guass trebs.... oh and i forgot the 6 ppc stalkers... LRM's kept those type of builds in check due to the IDF line of sight... and now u nerfed SRM's so u really killed the hunchback 4sp and the centerion brawlers who really go after those ppc/guass sniper builds.... but u got rid of the splat cat... well all things will come full circle... It was nice having LRM's back in matches for 2 months b4 splash dmg jacked it up... gonna be like back in Nov/Dec time when you never see a LRM in the air... only guass and erppc's flying everywhere and no one is gonna brawl but the lgt vs lgt pilots cuz nerfing streaks make it no reason to run up and harass the snipers and assults b/c doing the dmg aint worth getting killed now... Just my opinion been playing since closed beta seen some good changes seen some cheesy builds... I just don't want it to go from missle warrior to sniper warrior again...

[Nincompoopery]

What you said... needs some editing, but yeah, it's a sniper game now. All the people who were crying because PPC and gauss were temporarily displaced from their throne... congrats, you won. Mechsniper it is.

[ICEFANG13]

Its too much. What we have here is a heavy but probably balanced nerf to mechs that carry LRM-50+ and mechs that carry SRM-18-24+, but when you decrease damage, you also hurt lower mechs.

Lowering damage is not the best way to balance a weapon system usually, and I understand, temporary, but when you reduce the damage, it affects smaller amounts more than larger ones.

LRM-60? I took it, and I killed the mech with damage done to me, balanced? Hardly, even maybe, but LRM-5? That's a joke, and always have been. Energy weapons have high heat, you bring a bunch, and you overheat when you alpha over and over, the 9 medium laser hunch is not breaking the game, but a single medium laser is very powerful, and extremely helpful with infinite ammo. Ballistic weapons do a ton of damage for a ton of sacrifice, but when you bring 6 A/C-2s, you can't carry anything else, and they burn through ammo, but a single one has a DPS of 4 and a max range of 2160.

When you bring LRM-60, they go through ammo pretty quick, it has heat, you can actually avoid all the damage, but that represents a large part of that mech. LRM-60? Maybe balanced, LRM-5? Laugh at it. SRMs are the same way, 2 shots to equal damage before on a Splat, it didn't make it worthless, but when you pack SRM 12? It does so much spread and so little damage, you'd be better off getting skills and bringing lighter and equal heat Medium Lasers. SSRMs are the same way.

If missiles took longer to lock, for more, and SRMs had a larger spread the more you bring, why would this be terrible? It encourages balanced loadouts. I actually felt (splash splash aside), SRMs and LRMs were pretty balanced, but were LRMs were too weak in small numbers, now even more so.

SRMs, deal close to recent damage, the more you have, the more they spread out after fire (to avoid hitting each other, you could say)

LRMs, deal more damage (like 2 per missile), the more you have, the longer it takes to get a lock, not like broken, but LRM-5 should be lock lock lock lock, while LRM-60 should be.............. lock, and require it to relock everytime (I'm not saying a 10 second lock, but if you had to relock each time, and the more you had, but more damage, LRM5-20 would be much more acceptable).

SSRMs need to do the same thing, they can even do the same damage as SRMs, but if you have to relock each time (and slower for more and more), then it would lose in DPS to SRMs, but keep reliability and range.

What is currently, bringing less than 4 launchers is pretty comically bad. While I agree that 150 damage per ton is pretty acceptable (especially when that's the average area of ballistics), missiles are far more limited when they can work. Doing more damage, and even giving them longer cooldown is preferred over the current heavy damage nerf. LRM is 126 a ton, that's really pretty laughable.