2002 replies to this topic

[Jestun]

How disappointing, we will have the option between a smaller pool of players or playing against people with a clear advantage.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

DirePhoenix, on 26 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

First, 5000 is barely over 1% of the known population

and what is the so-called "known" population for a game with no in game counter and a company that doesnt disclose the population of their game ("There is no good business reason" to give out such info)?
Thew forum counter that the devs themselves have repeatedly told us means nothing?

Alienfreak, on 27 March 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

2. Why are those other people more important than the forum folks?
They may be more. But are they more important?

Better question; why are they more important when it comes to getting it in but not to HOW to get it in?
How is it the silent majority are loud enough to get the feature in but not loud enough to be able to tell them how to impliment it?

Jagdt, on 27 March 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

This poll (Currently showing 85% against) ?
http://mwomercs.com/...s-poll-revived/

On page 3 they actually answer that question. They say that those polls are meaningless because

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Honest answer.

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic.

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

Mind you theyve never actually done any polls OF that user base so any actual conclusions theyve come up with are pretty much made up or based on a small fraction of emails (I seriously doubt that the entirety of the silent majority rose up with one voice and said "WANT THIRD PERSON" cause they wouldnt be very silent then now would they).

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 27 March 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Mechteric]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 27 March 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

Mind you theyve never actually done any polls OF that user base so any actual conclusions theyve come up with are pretty much made up or based on a small fraction of emails (I seriously doubt that the entirety of the silent majority rose up with one voice and said "WANT THIRD PERSON" cause they wouldnt be very silent then now would they).

But is it fair for an individual to say I don't want third person therefore nobody should have it? I personally don't want 3rd person for myself, but you know what if I only ever play in 1st person against other 1st person only it will not affect me. Let's not be selfish, and make sure they know the only thing that is unacceptable is to allow 3rd person against 1st person. The choice should be one or the other and not both in the same match.

[Stone Profit]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 26 March 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Its funny he stopped posting in that thread (or I assume as all I see is "This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by Stone Profit. View it anyway?") when Helmar showed up and came here instead.

Because I made one post illustrating my point  and moved on. Herp da derp seriously dude not everyone has to post the same idea over and over ignoring all logic like yourself.
And is that how you deal with those who prove you wrong over and over, ignore them and bury your head in the sand? THATS ******* funny lawls.

CapperDeluxe, on 27 March 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

But is it fair for an individual to say I don't want third person therefore nobody should have it? I personally don't want 3rd person for myself, but you know what if I only ever play in 1st person against other 1st person only it will not affect me. Let's not be selfish, and make sure they know the only thing that is unacceptable is to allow 3rd person against 1st person. The choice should be one or the other and not both in the same match.

I tried the logic argument with him last night, he doesnt care he juwt replies with insults. Some of us understand that others do want 3rd person and we wont have to play with them. Others stubbornly insist pgi is screwing them over. Cant teach those unwilling to learn I guess.

Edited by Stone Profit, 27 March 2013 - 06:20 AM.

[van Uber]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Some of us understand that others do want 3rd person and we wont have to play with them. Others stubbornly insist pgi is screwing them over. Cant teach those unwilling to learn I guess.

I get that others want 3PV and we won't have to play with them. But I can't help feeling a bit screwed over.

[Stone Profit]

van Uber, on 27 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I get that others want 3PV and we won't have to play with them. But I can't help feeling a bit screwed over.

Well thats on you for misunderstanding the world of businesses and the word promise. I have little sympathy for those who assumed that the business plan couldnt possibly change and those who feel they were promised when they werent. If neither one of those is your situation I have no idea why you would feel screwed over.

[Franchi]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Because I made one post illustrating my point and moved on. Herp da derp seriously dude not everyone has to post the same idea over and over ignoring all logic like yourself.
And is that how you deal with those who prove you wrong over and over, ignore them and bury your head in the sand? THATS ******* funny lawls.


I tried the logic argument with him last night, he doesnt care he juwt replies with insults. Some of us understand that others do want 3rd person and we wont have to play with them. Others stubbornly insist pgi is screwing them over. Cant teach those unwilling to learn I guess.

Actually I pointed out that 3rd person will be in first person only games, becasue it will likely be a simple modification to the client (something PGI doesn't check for) to turn it on once it is included in MWO and even if it is difficult to do there will be tutorials on how to up on the interwebs within 12 hours of 3rd person launch. Even if its not hacked when PGI brings Euro servers online they will likely merge the ques do to "Unforeseen population issues".

You ignored that and decided to insult me while reporting my post......

Edited by Franchi, 27 March 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Franchi, on 27 March 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Actually I pointed out that 3rd person will be in first person only games, becasue it will likely be a simple modification to the client (something PGI doesn't check for) to turn it on once it is included in MWO.

You ignored that and decided to insult me while reporting my post......

I didnt ignore it. I simply stated how laughable that concept was. And since youll never be able to prove whether or not your opponent is hafking his cfg file that will be your boogeyman to explain why you lost. Not to mention you act like your supposition is fact and bring no evidence to show that pgi wont or cant do anything about it, and those who present opinion or supposition as fact deserve to be derided and chastised. And if I reported your post which I probably did and you got scolded for it it meane I was perfectly right to report your blatantly insulting post.
To summarize: you dont use facts and are unable to discuss without insulting someone. Just like your friend Buddah. Now why do 6ou think that is? Does inwulting people make you teel empowered? Or are you really just that lowbrow? And you probably find this post to be insulting but its not. Im truely trying to find out why you feel the need to be insulting.

[Alienfreak]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

I didnt ignore it. I simply stated how laughable that concept was. And since youll never be able to prove whether or not your opponent is hafking his cfg file that will be your boogeyman to explain why you lost. Not to mention you act like your supposition is fact and bring no evidence to show that pgi wont or cant do anything about it, and those who present opinion or supposition as fact deserve to be derided and chastised. And if I reported your post which I probably did and you got scolded for it it meane I was perfectly right to report your blatantly insulting post.
To summarize: you dont use facts and are unable to discuss without insulting someone. Just like your friend Buddah. Now why do 6ou think that is? Does inwulting people make you teel empowered? Or are you really just that lowbrow? And you probably find this post to be insulting but its not. Im truely trying to find out why you feel the need to be insulting.

1. What does proving a that one certain player cheated in the match have to do with the problem that including 3rd person INTRODUCES THIS PROBLEM.
We don't have this problem now and never will have unless PGI includes 3rd. Its not that much of a concept to grasp.
2. PGI won't and can't do anything about it. They have no anti cheat system in MWO. There is nothing they can do about it.

[Stone Profit]

Alienfreak, on 27 March 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

1. What does proving a that one certain player cheated in the match have to do with the problem that including 3rd person INTRODUCES THIS PROBLEM.
We don't have this problem now and never will have unless PGI includes 3rd. Its not that much of a concept to grasp.
2. PGI won't and can't do anything about it. They have no anti cheat system in MWO. There is nothing they can do about it.

So you dont feel the need to bring evidence either? so sad. This is what the education system gives us.

[Franchi]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

So you dont feel the need to bring evidence either? so sad. This is what the education system gives us.

We offer into evidence our vast experience with FPS and online games in general, all the Wall hacks, aimbots, radar hacks, lag macros, flight hacks, speed hacks, teleport hacks and hacked vision mods we have played against in so many other online games.

This game has the additional weakness when cracking down on hackers of being completely F2P, in an age where just about every internet gamer knows how to change everything right down to their mac address there is no way to stop players from simply creating a new account when and if PGI DOES start checking for hacks.

When we tell you that PGI is at present incapable of keeping 3rd person out of first person games maybe you should accept that we know what we are talking about having dealt with numerous other things players do in violation of the TOS of numerous other games to get an edge.

Edited by Franchi, 27 March 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Franchi, on 27 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

We offer into evidence our vast experience with FPS and online games in general, all the Wall hacks, aimbots, radar hacks, lag macros, flight hacks, speed hacks, teleport hacks and hacked vision mods we have played against in so many other online games.

This game has the additional weakness when cracking down on hackers of being completely F2P, in an age where just about every internet gamer knows how to change everything right down to their mac address there is no way to stop players from simply creating a new account when and if PGI DOES start checking for hacks.

When we tell you that PGI is at present incapable of keeping 3rd person out of first person games maybe you should accept that we know what we are talking about having dealt with numerous other things players do in violation of the TOS of numerous other games to get an edge.

Ah yes, accept you know what youre talking about. And I suppose we should just do away with the scientific method and believe those who claim scientific breakthroughs "know what they are talking about". I dont know you, therefore I cannot make a judgement as to whether you know what you are talking about or not, therefore i MUST presume you do not and look into it myself. So in short, "just trust me, bro" is not a logical argument. Nice try tho.

[Franchi]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Ah yes, accept you know what youre talking about. And I suppose we should just do away with the scientific method and believe those who claim scientific breakthroughs "know what they are talking about". I dont know you, therefore I cannot make a judgement as to whether you know what you are talking about or not, therefore i MUST presume you do not and look into it myself. So in short, "just trust me, bro" is not a logical argument. Nice try tho.

Is this your first experience with online shooters? If it is then i get why you don't understand what the rest of us simply intuit, if it is not then I have to ask why you think PGI can do what no other game company can.

An online game maker should do their level best to NOT introduce things that can and inevitably will be abused.

Edited by Franchi, 27 March 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Stone Profit]

Franchi, on 27 March 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Is this your first experience with online shooters? If it is then i get why you don't understand what the rest of us simply intuit, if it is not then I have to ask why you think PGI can do what no other game company can.

Because I dont give a **** if hackers get banned repeatedly and have to start fresh accounts. In fact its laughable, and the fact that it bothers you that they will possibly exist ever is laughable too. If thats how you feel you need to go back to single player only games.

[Alois Hammer]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Some of us understand that others do want 3rd person and we wont have to play with them.

And some of us understand "you won't have to play with them" can easily go the way of "we won't add Coolant Flush."

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

So in short, "just trust me, bro" is not a logical argument.

...unless it's the devs saying "Just trust us, there really is an invisible majority known only to us who want 3rd person."

[Gallowglas]

Franchi, on 27 March 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

We offer into evidence our vast experience with FPS and online games in general, all the Wall hacks, aimbots, radar hacks, lag macros, flight hacks, speed hacks, teleport hacks and hacked vision mods we have played against in so many other online games.

When we tell you that PGI is at present incapable of keeping 3rd person out of first person games maybe you should accept that we know what we are talking about having dealt with numerous other things players do in violation of the TOS of numerous other games to get an edge.

Yes, let's accept as "fact" something that's based on speculation and extrapolation rather than any knowledge of the actual code governing the system. Honestly, I hear this sort of nonsense from people who use my web applications constantly. They somehow magically "know" why things happen and they end up sounding ridiculous as a result because they're working off of completely circumstantial and observational data rather than any real information.

Honestly, if this is the nature of the counter-argument, then there's no real discussion to be had here. You can't argue against a boogieman you can't see because he'll always be hiding just out of sight.

Edited by Gallowglas, 27 March 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

Gallowglas, on 27 March 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

You can't argue against a boogieman you can't see because he'll always be hiding just out of sight.

Yep, just like that "invisible army" of non-players who are petitioning for 3rd person.

[Stone Profit]

Alois Hammer, on 27 March 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

And some of us understand "you won't have to play with them" can easily go the way of "we won't add Coolant Flush."




...unless it's the devs saying "Just trust us, there really is an invisible majority known only to us who want 3rd person."

Well, actually, its their game and they have the ability to do market research, so Im pretty sure they know more than those who cry about it on the forums., If 3rd person did not have evidence to support it being a good business move, they wouldnt do it.
And the magnitude of how wrong you are about coolant has been discussed in a different thread. Go read my posts youll find how I proved you wrong on that one.

Alois Hammer, on 27 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yep, just like that "invisible army" of non-players who are petitioning for 3rd person.

Invisible to you, not to the devs. But Im sure you know everything about everything....

[Gallowglas]

Alois Hammer, on 27 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Yep, just like that "invisible army" of non-players who are petitioning for 3rd person.

Who knows if they are or not? You're right. Honestly I don't care either way. I won't be playing 3PV. I do trust that if PGI intends to implement 3PV it's because they think it might expand the player base and if they can do that without impacting my 1PV experience, more power to them. As I have said several times in other threads, I'd prefer to see their actual planned implementation details before I start screaming bloody murder.

Edited by Gallowglas, 27 March 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Franchi]

Stone Profit, on 27 March 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Well, actually, its their game and they have the ability to do market research, so Im pretty sure they know more than those who cry about it on the forums., If 3rd person did not have evidence to support it being a good business move, they wouldnt do it.
And the magnitude of how wrong you are about coolant has been discussed in a different thread. Go read my posts youll find how I proved you wrong on that one.


Invisible to you, not to the devs. But Im sure you know everything about everything....

Actually he/she will find how you like arguing semantics, until someone points out that semantically you are wrong.

Edited by Franchi, 27 March 2013 - 07:59 AM.