2001 replies to this topic

[LordBraxton]

Thontor, on 28 March 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

I find that to be a faulty analogy. It's more like if you had pizza restaurant in that town... And you only sold deep dish pizza... You advertised yourself as a deep dish pizza restaurant....

Then you realized you would get more customers if you sold a thin crust pizza as well. But a poll of all of your current customers says most of them don't want thin crust! They want deep dish only!

Well, of course they do. They wouldn't be your customers if they didn't prefer deep dish.

That doesn't change the fact that most people prefer thin crust and you, as the restaurant owner, would get more customers and make more money if you sold thin crust too.

The poll saying most of your current customers prefer deep dish doesn't change that fact. Because the very fact that they are already your customers makes it a biased sample.

your analogy is even faultier than mine.

people enjoying thin crust pizza in the same restaurant as people who enjoy deep dish do not effect each other whatsoever.

however in my analogy, a political representetive effects everyone

just like how 3rd person will effect everyone

either by ruining the game for 1st person players, or dividing the community

both bad things.

honestly how could you detract from my analogy and then think the pizza one had any relevance? weak.

[zmeul]

when 3rd person gets introduced I will most likely stick to it because it offers a greater FOV
and that alone should be of major concern to PGI

I'm quite amazed that they didn't do a pros and cons to introducing 3PV before they even openly spoke about it
it undeniably clear that it offers a lot of advantages over 1st person view

they said 3PV would be fixed to the torso and won't be acting as a free cam
but! in 1st person you can press CTRL and pan left and right, would this function be blocked in 3PV ?

[von Pilsner]

in 1pv I play a variety of mechs, in 3pv I play jump snipers because I can see over hills and line up my shot while the enemy can not see me. So if this is how MWO 3pv works I ask for more JJ sniper mechs that can hold multiple gauss and or PPC in very high hardpoints so I can grief people just like how I did in MW4.

Otherwise make TAG invisible, lower the camera, lock the camera (no free look), do not render enemies that a 1pv player can not see, and reduce HUD information available to 3pv player (at least when they are playing against 1pv folks).

[Prophet of Doom]

Alois Hammer, on 28 March 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

The best way to implement 3rd person is from WarGames: "Strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Sorry the people y'all are giving the finger to aren't happily helping you decide how to best give them the high hard one, but them's the breaks.

Why do you feel theyre giving you the finger when all they did was not cater to a small segment of the population?

[Zeus X]

Prophet of Doom, on 28 March 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Why do you feel theyre giving you the finger when all they did was not cater to a small segment of the population?

There has been no proof otherwise that this supposed larger population wants 3rd person.

And the Devs have stated they were not going to put it in, but then recanted asking the core population to help with way's to implement it while ignoring the core population's polls of 3000+ no's we don't want.

[Roadbeer]

Seriously guys, like 10 of you have gotten into a circular argument, saying the same things ad nausium. You have nothing more to contribute to the argument other than beat each other over the head.

This thread has been abandoned by the OP. Let it die... the elephant already has.

Edited by Roadbeer, 28 March 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

I am all for 3P but it must never be an exclusive mode, same with 1P.

Not only will (and it will no matter how much you work to counter it) it segregate the community. It will drive off players who would other wise like to get into the competitive scene. One way or another people will be looked down unpon for using XX mode and playing in XX group only. Aka, "I am number 1 mr Mech pilot" someone responds to it going "Oh which game mode" and the person boasting would reply "In XX mode" then he would be shouted out of the forum or post because he is a "noob" for using said mode. Even mixed 3P and 1P that will still happen, but to a lesser degree. Case in point, this will cause the base to fragment so hard, I don't think you (PGI) know how hard it will. Unless the two mode are the same in every way short of the field of few. This scenario will play itself out over and over and over again.

Personally I like 3P allows me to see my cool mech getting torn up and how my skin looks.


3P being locked to the torso is a good idea, and one I would of expected to see anyways, so nothing new.
Having massive disadvantages to it, is very very bad, like no other hud items ect.

When I think of 3P I think of the view we had in MW4 (nightmares to most people....******) but without the spotting system from there. So a full on functioning 3rd person, FoV and all, but with what our mech (pilot) can see now. So its a nice wide FoV but you wont see any mechs, or weapons fire unless your pilot saw it happen form his cockpit. Anything short of that will be catering to the 1P whiners who will "leave" if it happens. To those people I say this, ADAPTION OR DIE.

[SirLANsalot]

zmeul, on 28 March 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

they said 3PV would be fixed to the torso and won't be acting as a free cam
but! in 1st person you can press CTRL and pan left and right, would this function be blocked in 3PV ?

yes, otherwise 3P would have too much going for it. A locked camera to the toso will be more then enough FOV.

[zmeul]

when 3PV will be introduced and will have the limitations described in the OP, I can see how the players playing MWO in 3PV exclusively would come on the forums and create topics on why feature x is not working in 3PV
for example: why aren't they able to target in 3rd person beyond pilot's view?

because they are the core audience, and not us according to PGI, those limitations / restrictions will get lifted


3PV should be desired because of it's unique features
take those away and what you get? you get nothing desirable, and you're back to square one
so, why is PGI implementing 3PV in the 1st place?! not to cater to certain audience??

Edited by zmeul, 28 March 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[IceTitan]

Frankly game should be fixed, and polished a bit more. Reason why people fumble their mech there's no in game tutorial. Every mechwarrior game had tutorial missions that explained every aspect of how to use the mech. And the controls as they are, aren't that much different. So mostly it's the players that never played a Mechwarrior game that are those most likely to constantly run into walls and shoot themselves in the foot.

As far as suppressive fire, making a couple of Atlas's and mechs back up is considered supressive fire, it happens alot, specially when they get fired on by things they didn't expect, etc. Some people are so used to seeing certain builds that once they meet different builds it makes them hesitate etc.

3rd person won't help at all help players learn to play. It encourages people like in Mech4, it will draw people, but people that will expect 3rd person to be a cheese mode, which once they realise it isn't, will quit and find some lazier or cheesier game to play. There's alot of cheese in the game as is, but at least that cheese is counterable.

But like stated if your going to make a third person mode, give the fpv players things that counters, or balances out.
Or make 3rd person require a drone that can be shot out of the sky and give the finger to.

This honestly feels like just another excuse to milk money out of people that really won't bring much to the scene.
Bad enough that 4 player groups are forced into 8 mans (should at least of allowed to fight matches 4 vs 4, 8vs 8 and 12vs 12 hard to take the game serious when most of the time half the group are pugs while the other group are full 8 mans (Teamspeak groups on NGNG etc etc etc.. or units that are large enough to almost always have their full group on the other side.) Considering how **** ELO is.

But anyways it won't improve the game, it won't improve the player base, people will quit, and people joining thinking 3rd person is like all the other shooters or mech 4, will eventually quit. While a small minority might eventually out grow it and merge with the rest.

Reputation, Content, stability and a game that is frikken fixed proper instead of their dev's constantly splitting their time between trying to milk money and fixing and adding content. You guys should seriously rework your priorities, because this game is all ready suffering because your priorities are often backwards or mixed. And the community notices things like that, and when that happens, well stuff happens, and not usually good.

IMO IGP is not happy with the money turnout, and their hoping that this will bring more cash infusion and that things were not considered or thought through. Just that the idea of gaining a new source of money came up.

Get the game working as it should, add options for people to choose their drop sizes, from 4,8,12, add a few more game modes, fix the bugs, get the mechs working the way they should be (way you plan them to run.). And focus on getting players a way to better compete etc... and it will slowly improve. Right now it's just a half assed slap fest to be honest with an extremely lop sided matchmaker that is exploitable to no ends.

And yes I know there's a few typo's... too lazy to correct

Edited by IceTitan, 28 March 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Alois Hammer]

Roadbeer, on 28 March 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Seriously guys, like 10 of you have gotten into a circular argument, saying the same things ad nausium.

It works for PGI's community relations crew, so... -shrug-

[MWHawke]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Here are the facts.
Why add 3rd person?

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.
  
• Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

Viterbi, on 28 March 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Some posts have been removed from this thread for being off-topic. This thread is not a discussion about whether or not certain polls are biased, nor is it intended to consolidate feedback regarding our market research practices. We will continue to be removing posts from this thread that are off-topic, without notification.



We're looking for suggestions for ways to properly implement 3rd person view. In particular we want to know what you think about our ideas in the OP. Back on-topic please...

That is the whole point. 3PV cannot be successfully implemented. Look at the reasoning given and look at the suggestions listed:

It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating:

- HOW do these ideas make the game less intimidating?

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.

- If you are talking about locking the view and giving an up-close view, then the intimidated players will still be unable to see their legs to help them torso twist or whatever justification is given for 3PV.

• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.

- No free-cam, so how does this help the intimidated player? He won't be able to see much difference anyway from what he ALREADY sees in the cockpit.

• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.

- If he can't see the HUD, then how can the intimidated player learn to pilot?

• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

- Meaning the intimidated player can SEE the enemy but can only target if he can see it from 1PV??!?

• Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.

- It REDUCES style of gameplay and tactics as it prevents people from sneaking up to Mechs from behind. Please JUSTIFY WHAT style of gameplay and tactics it offers??!?

The whole point is there is no way to introduce 3PV effectively.

[FaceRipt]

****** Cain, on 21 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Whilst I still completely fail to see the reasoning behind adding 3PV as its been so vicously opposed above all else by the community and will inevitably steer a playerbase towards a far less beneficial class of customer to the franchise I will add...


The only reason people want 3PV is to SEE the mech theyve spent hours customising tweaking and fiddling with, along with the coolness it dispenses. the best option I can see is a very minimalised HUD with minimal accuracy and movement benefits sacrificed for cool looks.

If at all possible the best thing would be some sort of projectile cam that can be enabled so that when a Ballistic weapon or missile is fired you get to see it in flight, Many sims offer this feature along with 3PV and dont fail to create a realistic simulation environment (DCS A-10 for example)

Personally I think you should save any efforts you're putting into 3PV as it's simply not worth the time and energy for what it'll bring in return, efforts would be put to much better use developing some form of replay theatre or action replay capture system.
This will satisfy the needs we ALL have to see our beautys in battle without having to mess with the game mechanic, no one at all could dislike the addition of a replay theatre and you folks reap the benefits of an arseload of free advertising by the many creative and sometimes boarderline obsessive Video makers out there. That alone will hoik in far more players than any cheesy 3PV could ever hope for.

^^ I want this, i don't need 3rd person gameplay, but a replay theater would be frickin awesome. you get the awsomeness of seeing your beast in 3rd person, but you can also watch your game play, analyze your performance, figure out what your doin wrong, whats working for you and therefore improve your gameplay. no need for live 3rd person outside of PG and even then it should only be limited use as it could create the feeling that its better or seems to provide a view advantage (hint hint, seeing the ecm light or any mech really, hideing behind you trying to core your ct)

[Hauser]

MWHawke, on 28 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

- HOW do these ideas make the game less intimidating?

In 3P you get to see torso and leg orientation, not just from a little arrow on the map or a hud-indicator, you see the mech stepping sideways while the torso is turned forward. You get to see the torso rotating on the legs. If you've played a few MW games you'll have internalized it. You're not even thinking about it, you just know it. A new player, he doesn't. He can understand he turns left and right when his legs turn but if he also starts looking left and right it gets complicated. Once that happens he doesn't understand why his mech is walking off in a different direction from the one he is looking.

You don't remember your first time? In spend hours in MW4 trying to master it, and that was with 3P. Only reason I picked up MWO so fast was because I'm used to the concept of having legs and a torso

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

FaceRipt, on 28 March 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

^^ I want this, i don't need 3rd person gameplay, but a replay theater would be frickin awesome. you get the awsomeness of seeing your beast in 3rd person, but you can also watch your game play, analyze your performance, figure out what your doin wrong, whats working for you and therefore improve your gameplay. no need for live 3rd person outside of PG and even then it should only be limited use as it could create the feeling that its better or seems to provide a view advantage (hint hint, seeing the ecm light or any mech really, hideing behind you trying to core your ct)

I've never been clear on why people think a highly advanced 20-100 ton robot SHOULD be able to 'sneak' up on another highly advanced 20-100 ton robot. You cant even sneak up on any car built in the last 60 years unless the driver is being willfully ignorant and most current model cars offer a rear view camera... sneak up?! really?! This argument against 3pv should make people who put it forth feel dumb. I know it makes everyone else feel a little dumber for having read it.

ETA: Sorry that was needlessly mean to the poster... apologies.. but my sentiment on that as a reason not to have 3pv stands

Edited by Redmond Spiderhammer, 28 March 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 28 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

I've never been clear on why people think a highly advanced 20-100 ton robot SHOULD be able to 'sneak' up on another highly advanced 20-100 ton robot. You cant even sneak up on any car built in the last 60 years unless the driver is being willfully ignorant and most current model cars offer a rear view camera... sneak up?! really?! This argument against 3pv should make people who put it forth feel dumb. I know it makes everyone else feel a little dumber for having read it.

You sir, obviously haven't seen me drive.

[Teralitha]

Why add Team Death Match?

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.
  
• Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.

These are the same reasons you should add TDM or any other number of new game modes.





And this....

You will have the following options as a player:

• Play against 1st and 3rd person players.
  
• Play against 3rd person players only.
  
• Play against 1st person players only

You are not splitting the playerbase by adding 1 new mode, your splitting it by adding in TWO new modes.




And you tell us you cant add TDM because your worried about splitting the playerbase?


What the hell..... Dont you wonder why your player base gets mad at you? You are inconsistant.


This mode here? - Play against 1st and 3rd person players.

Yeah you can leave that out. Its redundant. Save those resources for something else.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 March 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[Teralitha]

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work. These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.






Why implement 3rd person with such strict rules? Im pretty sure thats not what your 3rd person player base really wants.

Its like your trying to halfass it. Just go all the way full 3rd person if you really want to draw them in. If you make it so strict, those players will try it out, and they will say... this is lame. Or in other words, they wont like it.

Let them have the full on look around the corner/over the wall no restrictions 3rd person view. And then let them give feedback about it, and if they want to add those restrictions, then you add them. No point in programming more things into it than is necessary for the initial implementation until you know its what players want and you can get it in the game sooner.

Edited by Teralitha, 28 March 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[Kell Commander]

This was probably already said but i am not reading through 59 pages of responses to look:

I suggest either having tournaments that allow 3rd person view be very rare, or not at all. This way it does not effect players who use first person in a competitive setting. Also it encourages people who do use third person to play the game it was originally meant to be played.

[Heeden]

Whilst the thread was a bit hectic I tried contacting a few posters by PM to get some feedback on a post I originally made here,
http://mwomercs.com/...96#entry2137696

I received a few replies which I will copy in the posts below.

PGI have given some good reasons why they want to implement a 3.p.v. to the game. Opponents have given some good reasons why they don't want to use or face pilots using 3.p.v. The purpose of this thread is to find a way of achieving the former whilst avoiding the latter. It is not the place for people on both sides of the debate to endlessly repeat why those reasons are/are not valid.

First Person Only Mode - Community Warfare.

We don't know what community warfare will be yet, we don't know how it will handle queuing, the meta-game, match-making or anything. We do know it will be the main focus of "progression" and I believe if in any way you are affecting the galaxy, gaining favour (or whatever mercs and lonewolves get) or somehow taking on the role of a Mechwarrior in the "near-MMO" portion of the game it should be using first-person-view only.

Mixed View Mode - Arcade/Training Simulator

I've mentioned this before and someone else had a similar idea - people who played the original Wing Commander will understand where the idea came from. The main point is to keep 3.p.v. away from the meta-game to maintain first-person as a main pillar whilst also making it obviously a place for newbies to practice. I'd like to see it implemented with;


Fog-of-war/LoS checks for rendering enemy (and friendly?) mechs

I would include the compass, radar and targetting pips so 3.p.v. is useful for learning how to move around.

I would leave off damage display (both you and target), weapon cool-downs and make the targetting reticules a bit awkward to encourage players to use f.p.v. for combat.

Much lower income than C.W. to keep it from being a place to farm nubs for C-Bills, still allow the Cadet Bonus.

Stock Mechs Only - This came to me last night. Stock mechs are a good thing because they give a connection to the TT, they are however awful when put up against an optomised (not necessarily min-maxed) mech with a few mil put in improvements. Making the arcade/simulator mode stock mech only gives them a place they can be useful.

New players will find themselves on a more level playing field, whilst experienced ones will still beat them easily it will not be the near-instant death whilst being useless experiences stock mechs currently suffer.

Experienced players will want to move into CW/1.p.v. in order to build and customise their own robot, but may still go back occasionally for the different experience offered playing with and against non-optimised builds.

Trial mechs for CW can all be chosen by the build-a-trial competitions and either all stock variants or at least one per chassis can be made available for Arcade/Simulator.

Only one queue - random game-type. Keeps the mixed-view players all together and makes sure learning players get experience in all modes, not just the one they find easiest or most profitable.

Third Person Only Mode - Holo-projector.

I'll try to find a pic of it later, but there is Battletech artwork knocking about of mechwarriors standing around what looks like a holographic version of the TT game. I think this mode should take full advantage of the difference between 1.p.v. and 3.p.v. to make a very different game style.

All HUD information, render anything in LoS of the camera, zoomed out camera to give a better view of the surroundings. All this should make for slower and more tactical game-play at the cost of immersion. Less surprises and more jostling around before shots are fired, if anything it should be a lot closer to the TT where players could always see the position of the enemy.

Again much lower income than CW and possibly no XP as it is so far from actually piloting the mech.

Only a few game-types to keep the 3.p.v.-only players together, possibly a random selection from a few types, Team Deathmatch?

I received a few replies which I will copy in the posts below.

Edited by Heeden, 28 March 2013 - 08:05 PM.