2001 replies to this topic

[eli]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

This is a great observation and something we will definitely need to address. More of this kind of feedback is greatly welcomed.

Stop making such a big deal out of such a simple feature. I know people here complain a lot, but there are much bigger problems. Stop rearranging the deck chairs and implement Community Warfare.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

We have discussed internally releasing 3rd person via the training grounds first. This would allow the player base to provide useful feedback on the implementation.

Having it on the training grounds would help to teach the details of torso and leg movement. But of course, adding it only there would cause problems, because players would naturally expect to be able to play 3rd Person perspective even later, and when they can't, would get frustrated.

But for testing the implementation, it's a good approach.

I still think 3rd person perspective will cause a lot of issues:
The extra information gained by 3rd perspon perspective will always lead to an advantage. So yes, segregation will be necessary. But segregation is problematic as well, because it will make match-making harder.

Furthermore, what do you offer new players first - if they start with 3rd person, they might not want to play 1st person. That means all the current players that want to keep playing 1st person only might be out of luck in finding new players.
But if you don't show 3rd person perspective to new players, they might never really learn that it exists, and the planned advantage of making it easier to teach torso and leg movement might be lost.

There are no good solutions to these issues. What you might consider...

1) Tutorial
You need a Tutorial. You need it with or without 3rd Person anyway.
1.1) I would start the Tutorial by zooming the player in from an outside view into the cockpit and into the FPS perspective.
1.2) You teach the player the general movement controls and let him walk around. Lock the Torso and Arm Movement for now. But teach him how to look around (assuming yo ucan lock torso and arm movement and still enable mouse-look.)
1.3) Now you teach him the torso movement controls. Let him walk around at a path while facing a certain object. Now present him 3rd Person Perspective and explain how to activate it, and explain that the game has modes/leagues where you can use it, and modes where it cannot be used.
EDIT: Optional: Let's say you don't go with Full 3rd Person Mode - then you only activate this view for the player to let him see how his mech moves. He never gets to fully play in this mode - he just sees his mech from the outside for the purpose of this training exercise and can see what his actions are doing. At this step, you only need to enable torso movement, you can still keep the arms locked.
1.4) Next teach weapon controls.
EDIT: Optional: If you don't go with FULL 3rd Person Mode - then a part of the weapon training exercise could also involve changing the perspective to teach the value of torso movement. This can also help explain the Dual Cross-Hairs, by only now unlocking the arm movement and teaching him how that works.

If your Tutorial actually contains scripted mechs shooting their guns and using torso twist and arm movement, you might also teach a lot.

2) Game Modes or Leagues
For any match, a player can select whether he wants 3rd Person available or be limited to 1st Person Perspective.
I think there should be some additional incentives for each game mode, so players have a reason to do either, without feeling forced or punished into one. Say:
3rd Person View League: +25 % C-Bill Bonus for the first 50 matches, any further matches receive a a 10 % C-Bill Bonus.
1st Person View League: +25 % XP bonus for the first 50 matches, any further matches receive a +10 % XP Bonus. (That means that in the 1st person league, people can quickly earn XP.)

ELO Rankings may need to be tracked seperately between both. Not sure if it's absolutely necessary, but I could see it being so.

3) 3rd Person Perspective in General
The big question is probably- will you have solid line of sight rules (that can also not be "hacked") so that there is no direct advantage in seeing mechs behind cover (or behind you)? You don't have 360° RADAR, but 3rd person perspective will lower this drawback, at least at short ranges - maybe you need to revise this decision?

---
I'd still prefer you didn't do this, but it seems that ship has sailed..

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 March 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[StandingCow]

Rejarial Galatan, on 21 March 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

wait what? then you go to blast 3rd. I think <hope> what was bolded/underlined was meant as third? just asking for clarification only.

Yea... was an (obvious) typo.

[Tragos]

The way I'd like to see 3rd PV is as follows:

In a REPLAY (or spectator!) function where you can toggle between first person to see your aiming mistakes - and 3rd person for "coolness"/popcorn and simply "more overview". But again - only for spectator and replay.

[LethalKisses]

If i remember correctly .. didnt sll the previous MW titles have 3rd person? ( i know i always used 3rd person view in MW 3/4 ?)
*hides from the rain*.. i just like the look of it.. I realise that you can see a little bit more of surrounding area.. but still.. this is really game breaking ? Perhaps i just dont " get it"........

P.S. if you do remember .. its realy cool being able to SEE your mech get splattered !

No problem with 3rd implementation here .. think it should be just like MW 4 .. just over the shoulder view /adjustable to where ya want the camera left right center.

[Cid Slayer]

Quote

I do have a question:

&quot;It is possible 3rd person will be made available in other regions first.Typically 3rd person is more widely used outside of North America?&quot;


Where does this statement come from and what does it refer to? Mechwarrior games or gaming in general?

my guess would be that world of tanks is third person and that is more popular outside the USA . WOT has a huge player base and ny guess us that pgi want mwo to more closely reflect that game.

[Corvus Antaka]

All competitive & league play should be restricted to first person.

Also, if third person is being implemented to expand the market, how about adding a full respawn gamemode to expand the options & market further? every mech game before this one had CTF and respawn gamemodes, and a lot of us would love to see these return too.

[Cid Slayer]

i think that to add third person view it should be clear that it is better to be in first person mode. you could have it so you can switch between modes but even though 3rd person has a cursor , it doesn't gave any other hud or information such as target data.

i could live with something like that. have third person so you can see your mech but if you want to fight properly you slip into first person like the older mechwarrior games.

ie the main use of third person is travelling and looking cool and spotting that first enemy. then it's fight and first person time.

[Billygoat]

I suppose it'd be okay if every player using 3PV had a giant dunce cap attached to their mech.

It would (of course) be conical and have a big "D" (or possibly a big "3"?) and would vary in height depending upon the nearest object on the map that could be used as cover, that is, it would grow to always be visible above any nearby cover. It could be fired upon and would be considered as part of the cockpit hitbox.

This would be balanced enough that I would be OK with it if implemented in this fashion.

[Karrig Fetladral]

Divine Madcat, on 21 March 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

No doubt my post will be deleted again, but this. PGI, please, we do not WANT this. People in the community are not asking for it (if not the opposite).

1) This will segment the player base - it can already be frustrating finding good matches with the bad Elo implementation, making 3 different queues will only make it worse (made even more sad, by the fact that we NEED these 3 if such a horrible idea is gone forward).

2) While this and other unwanted features are being worked on, NEEDED features like the lobby and CW are languishing. If you want to help the community, focus on voice, lobby and CW..

This will again be deleted, since it is not what PGI wants to hear. So damn frustrating, seeing the game we love being driven into the ground. I just wish PGI would actually LISTEN....... *sigh*.

I’m not going to be reading over the 300+ replies to this preposterous notion. I will state this though, 3rd person will damage this game if implemented as birds eye view. Even if FPV and 3rd PV are separated in matchmaking, the player per match will drop.

You want to make "3rd person" acceptable, in a way that WORKS.

Here’s my idea.

-Modules-

Mounted cameras - There would be four cameras in total, Head (your 3rd person view), rear, left and right arms. The cameras would be susceptible to PPC fire (being disrupted for a second or two, similar to ECM disruption).

UAV Drone - Just like in the teaser trailer released back in 2009 from the Warhammer. Drones should be treated as a consumable. Drones would be susceptible to being shot down, PPC fire would automatically destroy the drone (electronic disruption). Could have different tiers of drones, increasing the detail of information, zooming capabilities and time in air. Also adding a Pilot skill in that works (or separate to) the Command Console. To being able to “move” the done with the use of the battle map. The drone would fly to a fixed altitude and have similar targeting capabilities.

Both would have a hotkey (home and end) to be able to switch views (changing camera). This would overlap you HUD and when not being used (your view) would be placed on one of those “no signal detected” screens that we have in all our mechs.

MechWarrior is a Simulator, everything should always be done from within the cockpit. Taking the Pilot out will no longer makes this game MechWarrior, just another sci-fi game.

Edited by Karrig, 22 March 2013 - 01:01 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

i just went pugging and asked in every match if they would like third person.

i suggest you guys do the same and take screenshots of the answers. really, so PGI can know what people in game think and not just the forum posters;

results are 1 to 3 out of every 15 people (not counting me) are FOR tpv.

around 12 people out of 15 are AGAINST tpv, if you think i'm lying go ask the good question in game

[INSEkT L0GIC]

The forum community seems very resistant to a full third person view mode, so hopefully it will be limited in scope and possibly duration when introduced.


From a podcasting / fan video community standpoint:

1. Various camera modes for match replay (free camera, spectate from cockpit to cockpit, chase cams, over the shoulder cams, top-down satellite views with zoom in / out, etc) rather than as an in-game mode. Possible black box type unit that requires a Command Console to unlock other camera / vision modes for match playback.

2. Limited chase cam / over the shoulder cam option for Spectate mode. No free camera to limit ghosting players. No HUD info displayed. They have to switch to back to first person Spectate to see the players targets.


If used for as an actual gameplay mechanic in matches, as was suggested in the OP:

1. Limiting it to people that have a BAP installed, as suggested earlier in this thread, and then have it as as a limited over the shoulder / chase cam type thing to reduce ghosting players. Edit: Your BAP gets destroyed you lose the mode.

2. Or as a Module unlock / Consumable option that enables a limited over the shoulder / chase cam thing, with BAP then extending its camera angle / view, and/or duration. Maybe handled as a reconnaissance drone launch view type thing, that hovers next to your Mech, and has to stay close to maintain signal. If used as a consumable the drone eventually burns out / runs out of power, and drops to the ground.

3. UAV view mode where the UAV has a specified linear path and duration similar to the Airstrike Consumable. Maybe those with a Command Console installed can replay their UAV feed in different vision modes (thermal / night vision / magnetic / etc). Edit: Or Command Console extends the duration / path of the UAV.

Edited by INSEkT L0GIC, 22 March 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Merrik Starchaser]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented. Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

Since we are not allowed to discuss our opinion that 3rd person should not exsist I would say this. since 3rd person inherently give anyone who uses it a tactical awareness advantage segregation of the player base for 3rdperson must be non-reversible. that is to say earnings from third person should not carry over to the first person games. it has to be completely separate, because grinding up c-bill in easy mode to use in hardcore cannot be allowed.

[Mazzyplz]

Merrik Starchaser, on 22 March 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Since we are not allowed to discuss our opinion that 3rd person should not exsist I would say this. since 3rd person inherently give anyone who uses it a tactical awareness advantage segregation of the player base for 3rdperson must be non-reversible. that is to say earnings from third person should not carry over to the first person games. it has to be completely separate, because grinding up c-bill in easy mode to use in hardcore cannot be allowed.

completely agree with this comment.

the game should ask you to choose for the particular account if you want first or third person, and let you play ONLY against those in the same boat (whatever you chose, 1st or 3rd)

this is the best suggestion i have seen the whole thread

Edited by Mazzyplz, 22 March 2013 - 01:10 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

Honestly, I think it should be implemented directly to the circular file.

IOW crumpled up and tossed straight into the wastepaper basket.

If SOMETHING were to be implemented that showed the newbie his mech, a holographic mech on the dash that had the torso always facing away from the player while the legs stay aligned with the mech's legs would be enough.

Lose first person perspective, even for an instant, and you lose the whole "in the cockpit" feel. I absolutely hated when flight simulators that did that.

[Nonsequitur]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

• It is possible 3rd person will be made available in other regions first. Typically 3rd person is more widely used outside of North America.

Mr. Ekman, since it would appear that the basic reasoning for implementing 3rd person is to increase the player base, allow me to make a suggestion.

Make language specific versions of the client or allow the user to switch language in options.

This alone will attract a lot more players. Here in Taiwan, there are only a handful of players (5 that I know of) who play MWO. All of them are US expats. I have tried to introduce the game to countless of Taiwanese, Chinese, and Japanese players. All of them said the same thing: "Wow! This looks great! Would love to play this ... but it's only in english....".

This is just a suggestion, but wouldn't localized versions of the MWO client be easier to do than implementing 3rd person resulting in opening a whole new can of worms?

[Playdoh]

TimTheEnchantor, on 21 March 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

/snip
Make it available only in spectator or when the match first starts then immediately go into cockpit.

-or-

Make a real tutorial training ground with AI opponents for new players to test third-person in. You keep wanting to bring this to a wider audience but you have not implemented a proper tutorial in place. Use your developing time wisely here.

/snip

Came here to say the same - having the 3rd person for a spectator view and having that locked to the view of the mech they area attached to would probably be the best option (IMO anyway, for whatever its worth) and limiting this view otherwise to a player vs AI/Dummy (so they can look at their mech paintjob)

[Bazukyuu]

For the fair fight, I think that I should split a match.
One is FPS exclusive match.
Another one is TPS exclusive match.
Mixed match is unnecessary. Because FPS has FPS strategy, TPS has TPS strategy too.

Edited by Bazukyuu, 22 March 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[Monky]

I am honestly flabbergasted that a 3d rendering of your mech, even in simple wireframe, is not considered as an alternative. This capability was in freakin mechwarrior TWO, not even MW2 MERCS, MECHWARRIOR 2! And it got the job done!

[van Uber]

I can see the points from PGI, they think 3rd person will attract more players and that is a rather compelling reason to include it.

Most on this forum, however don't want it at all (acknowledging that "we" in this instance might be a small demographic group), so a compromise is in order.

This is how I envision 3rd person being implemented:

First of all, keep it away from anything involving the matchmaker. Creating different queues is a very valid concern This is a real gamebreaker. Personally I think its bad enough that people are able to split over "Assault" and "Conquest" as it is. And by all that is holy, keep it away from CW. This is supposed to be the endgame of MWO, allowing arcade mode there would seriously detract from the experience for those who really prefer the 1st person only perspective.

So where can 3rd person reside? In a lot of places really, but that is an issue in and of itself (I'll come to that later).

- Training grounds naturally
- Before the start of each match
- During spectator mode (I don't care if that gives a slight advantage to a communicating team, it would make spectating more fun)
- And finally in the classic World of Tanks company mode. If you ever implement a lobby where we can arrange matches on our own, just like in WoT, that would be a nice place to allow 3rd person as a toggle, for either the host or the players themselves.

The issue with allowing 3rd person is that it becomes increasingly harder to disallow it further down the road. If players are used to run with 3rd person during their cadet training and is suddenly not able to do that any more it will act as a threshold and possibly turn off to continue playing MWO. It will equally be hard to argue for no 3rd person in CW if players are used to utilize it whenever else they play. That is the second reason I'd like it to stay away from the matchmaker, to make the threshold as low as possible (first reason being splitting the queue is bad).