2002 replies to this topic

[jay35]

Lyrik, on 22 March 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

3rd person would be amazing for all the persons who love to paint their mechs.

Not really. They could solve that by keeping a 3PV function in the mechlab and/or Training Grounds, to satisfy mech paint curiosity.
Also, they could create a replay system with a free-floating camera for players to review the match and see everything from 3rd person to their heart's content.

Either of those implementations would prevent actual community fragmentation and harder work for the matchmaker that already fails to fill matches properly.

[Kdogg788]

Springbok, on 22 March 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

I could live with your suggestions except for point 3 - the modes should definitively not be able to mix...I can already see the QQ between the 1st person vs.3d person pundits on the forums.

The 3rd person user should get no choice. They should always default to 3rd only. The 1st person user should be able to choose whether they want only 1st person opponents, or allow 3rds in their game. That said, they have to be super careful not to implement 3rd in a game breaking way. This really does disappoint me, not because they want to include 3rd person, but because they should be working on maps and CW.

-k

[Mechteric]

I'm curious if 3rd person will be more popular, for instance CoD Modern Warfare 2 introduced a 3rd person mode which I think not a lot of people play regularly anyway. I would certainly be happy with a similar outcome for MWO

However, one thing I would recommend is only have 2 separations, 1st person only and 3rd person only. Having a combined mode really just means people will only use 3rd person as its more advantageous and pretty much nullifies the point of being able to do either viewpoint within the same match.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 22 March 2013 - 05:38 AM.

[jay35]

Grayseven, on 22 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Ensure that everything that has an effect on a player in 1st person has the same effect in third person.

So if someone is taking a laser to the head or getting peppered by AC fire, they should suffer the same visual impairment a 1st person pilot takes.

Do not allow the use of in-cockpit visual **** such as Night and Thermal vision. If they aren't inside, they shouldn't be using it.

Do not allow HUD elements. You want to target something, you'd best be inside and not looking remotely at your mech.

Basically, 3rd person takes away everything this game is about. You turn it into WoW in battlemechs. Your thought that this will expand the player base seems weak. It will instead divide the player base, reducing available opponents to one of two factions.

+1. Good points. And it's more than two factions if you look carefully at Bryan's description. There will be at least 3 fragments: 1PV vs 1PV, 1PV vs 1PV & 3PV, and 3PV vs 3PV. And that's assuming they don't do something silly like allow 3PV users to select only facing 1PV players, which could be a fourth queue.

[Vassago Rain]

Mild Monkey, on 22 March 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Look, guys, the company needs the money. Money is the raison d'etre of a company, the product is the means to ensure the influx of money. Money in our case is mostly generated by new players and high DAU/MAU values, not by core players. So it is a very good business decision to introduce this option for new ppl, encouraging them to spend some money on the game.

As for the gameplay: I am not going to use it and as long as I am not forced to play against those people using 3rd PV, the way Bryan has stated, no problem.

Yes, companies need to make money. We gave them 5 million for their game already.

I'm not opposed to third person viewpoints all on its own. The problem is, it has a 24 year old history of ruining FPS games. So how do we add it to this game, without it breaking everything, and it attracting all the oh so many people who aren't here already, that are mechwarrior and counter-strike fans in the year 2013?

[Gunhaver07]

If 3rd person is for new players then why not have it enabled just for the trial mechs or until the recruit bonus has stopped.

[Roughneck45]

I'd want it to cost something because it is a tactical advantage, but then it kind of nullifies the new player friendly idea.

A module perhaps.

A destructable drone could work too, that when killed forces them back into first person. Once again though, not that new user friendly.

[MegaZordTrololo]

The details you laid out for the separate queues sound fine. Mainly because those who want 1st person only have the option to play with like minded people.

I might even enjoy being in the combined 1st person only/3rd person queue. Simply because it brings more variety to the matches.

[deranda]

Gunhaver07, on 22 March 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

If 3rd person is for new players then why not have it enabled just for the trial mechs or until the recruit bonus has stopped.

This.

[Moromillas]

Novel idea letting you chose your opponents based on what camera style they use, I wouldn't have thought of that.

I suppose just the standard above the head like Tenchu will do nicely. I don't think there's any way to get around the "looking around corners" thing without looking tacky. Yes, I suppose you could just visibly fade out the Mechs if they don't correlate to the 1st person view, but like I said, tacky.

[Vassago Rain]

Lyrik, on 22 March 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

You don't know that. (I really hope that Pacific Rim will be a success xD)

A split is only then bad for CW when 3rd person isn't enough to attract more players.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know that. Judging from your comment, I've likely played FPS games for longer than you've been alive.

Mechwarrior is tiny. There's no mass appeal to a difficult game, but the difficulty is the appeal for the people who like it. CoD and battlefield are the ultimate masters of the casual genre. These players won't come here, no matter how hard they casualize it, because CoD will always do it better.

So they aim for the people in between, who might want to give this game a try. Fair enough. Then they find out that they like it because of its identity, but said identity is ruined by casualization...

So they go play something else. See the problem? If GW suddenly started selling their models and books in walmart stores, they'd not make extra income, but would ruin their business.

MWO was launched with the full understanding that they're appealing to a certain market. There are 259595925 blogs and dev posts about this. Bryan is simply now tasked with solving an impossible to solve issue.

He's been stuck with the can of worms duty. I feel for him.

[Gihzmo]

I think this is a problem not just in the benefits someone playing in 3rd person would have over another player. This is like many others have said, a unneeded segmentation of the player population. We have already seen this in 8 player vs 4 player pools. Right now, just about any time I go to play in 8 man groups I see the same handful of groups over and over again. This tells me the great majority of players are using the 4 man pool.

Now take that and divide, as you suggest, into 4 more categories. How many players are you actually going to get to play against? I understand you want to expand the player base, which I can appreciate. However, in doing so I think you will be hurting your dedicated player base, those who will stick with the game if what has been promised is delivered. I believe PGI needs to take a STRONG look at how the community is divided between 8 player and 4 player pools and then apply some math with what you are suggesting. Base these numbers on your current player population. Unless I am grossly underestimating how many people play this game, I think you will see there are just not enough people to support the huge division you are suggesting.

That said, I think 3rd person is fine in the trial grounds, but outside of that I think it is the wrong design choice. Give people an understanding of how it works, and then let them apply that to a real game.

[Lyrik]

Vassago Rain, on 22 March 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know that. Judging from your comment, I've likely played FPS games for longer than you've been alive.

Mechwarrior is tiny. There's no mass appeal to a difficult game, but the difficulty is the appeal for the people who like it. CoD and battlefield are the ultimate masters of the casual genre. These players won't come here, no matter how hard they casualize it, because CoD will always do it better.

I'm older than most videogames ;-)

But you are just giving phrases out without proof. Numbers, give me numbers or get out with your statement. Just because Mechwarrior is tiny doesn't mean that there aren't many gamers who want such a game.

MWO will never get Call of Stupid numbers but the Mechwarrior Franchines was hugely successful in the 90s.

I'm glad that PGI will try with 3rd person view. I hope they won't borke it.

[Vassago Rain]

For those who are curious...

3rd person view on its own isn't evil, or bad. Most everybody here who is against it are so because of the PROVEN EFFECTS it has on games, which can be tied into that there's never been a proper solution ot the 24 year old problem.

Deus ex 3, while it's not even comparable to MWO (counter-strike with robots, basically) managed to seamlessly blend 3rd person into a first person adventure game, where it's a generally useful and even cool feature.

Bryan has been tasked with the unenviable job of finding a way to fit it into a competitive first person shooter, without chasing off the whales (gold mil-sim fans), the hardcore (people who want to play games for the sake of skill and challenge), and casuals who are here for the robots (ghetto slummers). On top of this, it must not split the already split playerbase further, and will add to the game - not be something one camp decides to outright ban. If you have a solution, throw it in here.

Assuming we solve it, it's good for everybody involved. Assuming it's not solved, and they go through with it, anyway, the game's dead, and we can all go to bed.

Consider it a mental exercise.

[Glory in the Highest]

Terrible idea, we've said it for months. We said it loudly last time the possibility was announced.

But $$$ > integrity, yeah?

The playerbase is already fractured - it's hard enough to match players as it is. Add to that the insane plan to make separate regional servers, and further split it with 3rd person options...

:S

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Moromillas, on 22 March 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

Hmm. No. It means that those that prefer to play against players that use 1st person view mode may do so, without players that use 3rd person view. Then everyone just picks the view mode they want, and the opponents they want. I'd call that a novel approach.

Yeah... that's what MW4 did, you had FFP [forced first person], Mixed, and Third Person matches... you could choose. You could also choose NHUA [No Heat, Unlimited Ammo] or HOLA [Heat On Limited Ammo] matches.

it's not a novel concept, and it's where people discovered that 3rd person view confer's an advantage over first person view due to increased FOV, and ability to see over/around things that the 1st person player cannot.

Trust me, I spent YEARS playing MW4... and MW3, I played in 3rd person when I was a teenager, these days, I play forced first person, even in single player. Is it cool to go 3rd person and see the damage on your mech and whatnot. oh of course it is... but it's far from a "new player" tool. if anything, it's a crutch and an exploitive mode

[StalaggtIKE]

As some have stated earlier, I believe 3rd person view should be confined to training grounds and tutorials.

[Grayseven]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

We did an analysis of our data and found that players in general were having a hard time learning how to control their BattleMechs. We spent time studying their behaviours, observing, and then formulated a series of improvements. You have already seen some of them (new user controls). We did some market research, looked at the target demographic that we engaged initially but did not retain (played a few matches and left), and found that many players were not able to easily grasp the concepts of their `Mech, especially movement. 3rd person will help solve some of these issues, along with a new UI, training and testing grounds, and other features coming down the pipeline.

Hope that answers your question.

Instead of spending the time implementing 3rd person (which in my opinion is a crutch that will not have the effect of "training" that you desire), spend the time implementing a true training grounds, a single player game along the lines of the older single player Mechwarrior games with an in-cockpit tutor explaining weapons systems, targeting, torso movement and all the rest.

Explain navigation, maps, command, arm versus torso cross hairs...everything in a tutorial type in game experience. Have moving targets to teach leading, have targets firing back to get the new player used to what happens. Basically, create an actual tutorial system that will give new players the knowledge they need instead of giving them the dubious use of 3rd person which really isn't going to teach anyone anything at all about the game.

The time spent implementing a 3rd person view system that will split the player pool into smaller groups is not really the way to try to train new players. Most people learn best by doing, and doing in a training environment that has no penalty for failure is much better than allowing them to see their mech as if they were outside it.

[MrPenguin]

Why not just make a 3rd person unranked gametype?

Something for fun that doesn't effect ELO or CW?

Edited by MrPenguin, 22 March 2013 - 05:58 AM.

[Chavette]

StalaggtIKE, on 22 March 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

As some have stated earlier, I believe 3rd person view should be confined to training grounds and tutorials.

That would be the only logical way to fit it in, make 3rd person work for you, demoing the mech mechanics from outside view in training and possibly cadet matches, and then lose it so you don't have to split the game in half.

MrPenguin, on 22 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why not just make a 3rd person unranked gametype?

Something for fun that doesn't effect ELO or CW?

Yes thats a good idea too, for now only training and cadet mode, later unranked too, and CW 1st person only.

Edited by Chavette, 22 March 2013 - 06:00 AM.