2002 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Also talked about not making switching from first to 3rd and back a transition that takes time there for it can't be spammed.

I think the biggest point to make is.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPLETELY AVOID IT AND NEVER USE IT OR PLAY WITH SOMEONE WHO IS USING IT.

I think the biggest point was right above your post actually. That you told us it would NEVER BE IN THE GAME REPEATEDLY

that PAUL even was the one telling us that

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Teh Hobo]

I think the best idea I've seen here is the arcade/machwarrior split game modes. Arcade gives you a toggle to switch between vision modes and is just pug games. So esentially what you have now only with a third person option. I'd play that as I like the idea of third person, used it all the time single player. Mechwarrior is CW, only 1st person, competitive gameplay. I woudn't play CW if I was playing against 3rd person users as it gives them a huge advantage. Gimping third person isn't the answer, and splitting the playerbase isn't the answer either.

That'd give you guys the easy mode entry-level gameplay you need for new players and give you the hardcore competitive gameplay that satisfies vets(who spend A LOT, over time, on games like this).

[YouMadQuiaff]

rather than work on a 3rd person view, which is clearly borked, why not work on balance, matchmaking, community warfare, ECM, etc?? you know, prioritize.

[Ethidium]

In AsktheDevs 34 there is a resounding no to team death match mode, because it would split the player base and add little to the game. Meanwhile, here is a big yes to a feature that will split the player base, potentially cause balance issues and arguably add no new content. If we must have 3^rd person view as an option please consider:

• Add private matches first, with the ability to set teams and rules (such as enforced first person) so that the player base has the option to more effectively create our own content.
  
• Make 3^rd person not an option in ladder matches, CW games or even restrict the option to solo dropping.
  
• Offset the advantages of 3^rd person by forcing Arm Lock and disabling zoom and vision modes; perhaps even limit radar and targeting information.
  
• Disable 3^rd person while using Jump jets and/or greatly increase camera shake.
  
• Make 3^rd person only an option in training ground or private matches.

Many other players have made similar suggestions, but none of these things would actually make the new player experience easier. Third person view only helps the new player if it is really easy to use and provides substantial advantages over the current system. More caveats and alternate rule sets would make the game even more confusing and more frustrating to a new player.

The focus really needs to be on better explaining, teaching and encouraging new players to stick with the current system. Throttle decay and arm lock as default already provide new players with a much easier interface to learn, similarly ELO rankings keep new players away from experienced min/max warriors in expensive Mechs. Let’s get in some features that help new players, while also adding content for the existing player base (or at least not alienating this group).

• Add Mouse Sensitivity to the in game option menu. Every single person I’ve brought into MWO has benefited from mouse tweaks in the user.cfg
  
• An interactive tutorial map would help new players overcome early barriers. Even a half hour of a training map that rewards XP and Cbills would help a great deal.
  
• The ability to play with and against AI controlled Mechs is an ideal way for players to learn the game, while also adding content for those of us who’ve been here a long time.

Check out how Blizzard has made multiplayer in Starcraft much more accessible in Heart of the Swarm, without impacting the core gameplay.


-

For the record I do like many of the ideas other players have suggested about UAVs. That would “Offer up a different style of gameplay and tactics” and also add a neat consumable.

Edited by Ethidium, 22 March 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Given the parameters Bryan and Paul have expressed, and what they are already considering, I have something I'd like to suggest.

In the circumstance that a player is playing in first person, and a Mech that would be drawn should he be in third person mode is otherwise obscured by terrain, allow the HUD to mark the outline of the mech. Perhaps due to short range mag sensors, or however you want to explain it.

Most solutions look to ways to limit third person, this in conjunction with such measures would boost first person to be a little closer as well.

That's an important angle, too, because you don't want first person to feel hampered and you don't want to have to lock third person down so much it's actively unpleasant to use.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 22 March 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Given the parameters Bryan and Paul have expressed, and what they are already considering

decided, not considering. Given this isnt a "should you/shouldnt you" thread as much as a "how will we do this" thread

anyone else find it frightening that the reason they arent giving us more game modes is because it will split the playerbase?

I remember that quote from the 44 page now locked thread, or was it from the beginning of this one?

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 March 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[WardenWolf]

I see two ways this can go, one being what Bryan described - but it has some downsides as others have noted. Here is another option to consider:

I recommend making 3rd person a movement-only mode. When you 'zoom out' to 3rd person, you can see better where your mech is vs the environment, and how your torso is positioned compared to your legs, etc. However, the targeting mechanisms would all be gone - and even the ability to fire might be disabled. This would prevent a lot of the concerns where someone would simply play in this mode all the time and have advantages over first-person views, but it would let people zoom out and see what is going on if they are confused about their location or want to get a view of their own mech (for screenshots, etc).

In whatever tutorial or training setup there ends up being, you could start people out in 3rd person. Show them their mech, let them see the torso vs legs stuff, etc. Then, when they get to the combat section, have them walk up to an enemy mech and tell them "okay, now to engage in combat you need to zoom in to your cockpit view" and then take things from there. This will give them a natural progression, and help them to understand the benefits of each view.

What say the Devs and Community to this idea?

[iminbagdad]

Pierce Rossignol, on 22 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

You want 3PV but you want to keep the realism of immersion? Too easy.

Toggling 3PV places the pilot on top of the mech and gives him his own hitbox.

So go on, pop the top hatch and have a look around. Lemme know how that goes for you.

Problem solved.

win

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This is one of our largest concerns. In fact, it's one of the reasons we don't just jam in more game modes.

about a question about splitting the community

[DrBunji]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPLETELY AVOID IT AND NEVER USE IT OR PLAY WITH SOMEONE WHO IS USING IT.

See below post.

von Pilsner, on 22 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

My suggestion is to avoid selling us on one thing and delivering another... (...)

This isn't just about a new optional vision mode but what it represents; a lack of respect for your fans shown by ignoring the outcry and flipflopping and a willingness to go back on stated words.

[Lanoitakude]

First time posting (long time lurking).

I must say I am dismayed at the inclusion of 3rd Person. As Paul Inouye suggested, I will "Link to this when needed."

http://mwomercs.com/...is-when-needed/

I believe that any merits or boons granted by the inclusion of 3rd Person are minor at best, and are far outweighed by the loss of immersion and gameplay style.

As others have mentioned, they are far simpler, cleaner, and more important methods to bring in new players and retain them. These include, but are not limited to:

• Add an extensive, interactive Tutorial for not only combat, but for the MechLab and PilotLab.
  
• Add Training Bots to the Training Grounds.
  
• Provide stable, intuitive chatrooms, such as "New Players" or "Help".
  
• Improve the user interface's level of intuitiveness; as it stands, it takes some amount of effort to navigate through the game's various menus and options.
  
• Decrease the sudden and tremendous drop-off from Cadet Bonus to normal earnings. The drop-off is of too great a magnitude, and this can be demoralizing for new players, especially as there is no description of the mechanics behind the Cadet Bonus.
  
• Add some in-game Tooltips for new players (helpful reminders, data points, and facts). Experienced players can turn them off with a simple click.

The learning curve for this game is very steep and very sharp. This is not a symptom of camera perspective - it is a symptom of a complex, deep, and rewarding (and wonderful) game that has an extensive history going back decades. Leverage the depth. Leverage the lore. Leverage the complex, but rewarding systems in place.

These are my suggestions. Thank you for reading.

[Sadist Cain]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Honest answer.

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic.

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

This is quite true, in a nutshell I would say

• Folk are concerned 3PV will hoik in a type of player not interested in teamwork, immersion and so on in favour oh "wow I can see my mech it's so cool!"
  
• no one can deny they want to see their awesome mech doing dirty things to other mechs whilst watching from afar but there are other ways to achieve this result
  
• there's a worry that rather than devoting time and energy towards making the game the best it can be in a certain discipline (which inevitably draws interest from all crowds anyway) Devs are trying too hard to make the "everymans game" by combining a very deeply rooted and successful cult franchise with the everyday TF2 player.
  
  My concern is I know a few folk who play the likes of TF2 and such religously, and whilst they're very good at playing, the moment they enter that arcady mindset it takes a large amount of bad games before they're back in a Meching headspace.
  
  Keep up the good work, I will stand by my idea that I see what you want to achieve but I believe there's a much better way of going abot it (replay theatre )

[Matt Newman]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 22 March 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I think the biggest point was right above your post actually. That you told us it would NEVER BE IN THE GAME REPEATEDLY

that PAUL even was the one telling us that

I see your point you feel lied too. The truth is that was the position at that time.

What I am asking you to understand is there are people who would like to play the game another way.
I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person. I believe the best games give players the option to play they way they want. Were going to do our best to keep fun and fair for everyone.

Matt

[Phoenix Gray]

I don't see the 3PV as particularly valuable, and likely to alienate the player from the experience. Just another arcarde game, Mario.

That said, I'm concerned as to how 3PV will be implemented without become GodCam and giving the players tactical info they couldn't possibly otherwise have.

[DrBunji]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I see your point you feel lied too. The truth is that was the position at that time.

What I am asking you to understand is there are people who would like to play the game another way.
I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person. I believe the best games give players the option to play they way they want. Were going to do our best to keep fun and fair for everyone.

Matt

Fine things change, but if we allow that to be used as an excuse, why not remove the throttle from the game next month, cause it causes problems for new players? Statemements were made upon which people pledged money, you can't just go back on that. I respect a dev that has a vision for a game and then goes with it, trying to just please everyone just makes a mess of a game.

Thanks alot for answering though, I'm sure alot of people really appreciate you taking the time to wade in here with us.

[Mazzyplz]

how about third person not only have their own queue, their own accounts but also their own executable?

they launch the game with a separate launcher?

that way there's no mistake, no xp and no cbills are transferable between a 3rd person player and a 1st person player.

i'd be 100% behind that.
it would be like shipping another mechassault along with this game.


oh and i'm not even going to acknowledge the losers attacking my person; my points stand on their own

[Grimlox]

I don't like the idea of segmenting the player base and I would prefer to implement 3rd person into the general matchmaking. This would require some limitations on 3rd person due to the benefits it provides. Also I feel strongly that 3rd person and 1st person needs to be a view that can be easily toggled at any time.

Benefits of 3rd person view: Situational awareness, ability to see mechs you can't normally in 1st person as well as enemy fire coming at you that you can't see in 1st person.

Cons to 3rd person: Cannot see small mech right in front of you very well.

Suggested cons to 3rd person to make it fair:
Remove ability to zoom while in 3rd person and require that the pilot switches to first person view before enabling zoom. (You have to press 1 more button to zoom while in 3rd person)
Force arm lock in 3rd person view

[raygun]

Pierce Rossignol, on 22 March 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

You want 3PV but you want to keep the realism of immersion? Too easy.

Toggling 3PV places the pilot on top of the mech and gives him his own hitbox.

So go on, pop the top hatch and have a look around. Lemme know how that goes for you.

Problem solved.

i love this idea and fully support it

[Matt Newman]

DrBunji, on 22 March 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Fine things change, but if we allow that to be used as an excuse, why not remove the throttle from the game next month, cause it causes problems for new players? Statemements were made upon which people pledged money, you can't just go back on that. I respect a dev that has a vision for a game and then goes with it, trying to just please everyone just makes a mess of a game. Thanks alot for answering though, I'm sure alot of people really appreciate you taking the time to wade in here with us.

Thanks, Mutual respect!
Posting in this thread is about as scary as walking through a mine field.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

They are working on 3rd person view, it will take time an resources, so I'm certain it won't be for training grounds only. I'm not certain however that it will bring more players (though some guys will leave for sure).
I think that the best idea to implement it is destructable UAV/drone/whatever you call it. When you launch it you are shown an overhead view of your mech on one of the (useless now) screens with an option to go full screen. There is a problem however - AFAIK CryEngine can't use multiple viewports without significant performance drop.

Bottom line: I'm not entirely against 3rdPV, but I don't think it is worth the trouble either. Especially that there are bigger concerns ATM, like overall lack of content, no CW, balance issues, ETC.