2001 replies to this topic

[benth]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 24 March 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

You need to screenshot that post for when they tell us that about the ques being seperated in a few months

It can apply to everything they ever have or ever will tell us.

Which is the beauty of it.

Edited by benth, 24 March 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[TyGeR STD]

I've went through this post, read almost everything here, and over an over all I can see are 99% of everyone expressing out they fell this is a bad idea. The 1% of players that are "ok" with 1PV or "for" the idea, 1\2 of them are problay trolling... it's sad

I myself am totally against 3PV. The statements that PGI at the start of this project that they were totally against 3PV helped me deicide to invest with a Legendary Founders package and also invest in another MC package when they were on sale. If this goes in I will feel very betrayed as do other players feel for other reasons.

I can understand what Brian posted about a certain number of players that start up the game and cant not grasp the concept of piloting a mech for MWO. But will 3rd person view really solve their problem? Even if you can see the direction your legs are walking in 3PV does that help them become a better player? Some people will never grasp the control style of this game. Giving them a 3PV hoping that it gives them what they need is NOT the answer. A in-depth tutorial system is the only way to "Train" these players on how to be a Mechwarrior.
As many others have stated that issues will 3PV bring to the player base? If you set an option that allows 3PV vs 3PV only, 1PV vs 1PV only or mixed view games you divide your player base farther and farther...

THE biggest issue with codeing in 3PV into MechWarrior Online is cheating. Once a system is in the game, no matter how many options or protections you put into place, hackers will find a way to overcome the system and unlock the view styles in any game mode. We saw this in Mechwarrior 4, We saw this in Mechwarrior 3. Hell.. The hacks and cheat files can still be found online. I'm sure the YouTube videos are still somewhere when units showed proof of the ability to enable 3PV on 1PV only servers. The only way to stop this from being an issue is to not put this feature in the game.
IMO, the best way to fix the issue that has been stated by Brian Ekman is to develop a long, in-depth training system to help teach newer players the controls and play style of MechWarrior Online. For completing the training tutorial give them a choice of 1 mech (pick one of each weight class) and 1 million Cbills to get started. This gives them incentive to do the training and learn the controls and play style of MWO and gives them a mech and cash to customize it.

I really have to wonder if this is a decision being made by PGI or being pushed down from IGP?

Where ever this is coming from I hope that you listen to the vocal community about this issue. The players that take the time to read the forums, take time to make post, take time to give feedback and input in hopes of helping YOU build the game that WE want to play. The players you refer to that install the game, play a few matches and leave never to return, those are not the people that would be play (and be putting money into MWO) years from now, WE the community that so passionately post on the forums are the players that want this game to be awesome, that want this game to last for years and years, and are willing to spend money on the product we love.

PGI, I hope you make the right decision...

[Mystere]

Mao of DC, on 24 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

But I am hopeing we can try to get them to make 3rd person as restrictive as we can. Since it seems they are going to put it in anyway. By giveing 1st person view a tactical advangage most people will fight only in 1st person and make 3rd person usless really.

Why even intentionally gimp one over the other? If they can be made equal, why not? Why even do it if you intentionally want it to be useless.

Or are you so hell-bent against 3PV that you intentionally want to SABOTAGE the whole idea? Because that is how your statement sounds to me. And if that is indeed your intent, then **** of this thread as it was not meant for you either.

I myself prefer to play using 1PV. But if there are those who prefer 3PV, then I say let them have it.

Are you even aware that not everyone has the same level of spatial recognition as everybody else? Do you even realize that people do not react exactly the same way to the exact same visual stimuli?

Edited by Mystere, 24 March 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Mystere]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 24 March 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

because with the GIVEN situational awareness bonuses you get for 3rd person (looking over hills around corners as stated REPEATEDLY) there is no way to make it even and most of the "no dont" crowd will go APESHIT if they try to combine 3rd pov and 1st pov at this point given thwy said they wouldnt on the FIRST PAGE of this thread.

Nonsense, on 24 March 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

The point is, if 3PV is better than FPV, people generally won't use FPV ...

Of course it can be made even if designed properly. Just because the developers of MW4 couldn't (or didn't) do it, does not mean it can't be done. Of course, I'm leaving the MATH as homework for both of you.

Nonsense, on 24 March 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Same reason they're changing the vision modes...currently nobody uses night vision because it sucks and people use heat vision constantly because it's almost always better than normal vision ...

PGI has already said that it was a bad implementation and as such are changing it. So in that particular case, they are trying to do the right thing. Why can't 3PV get the same treatment?


I may be wrong, but, I am getting the impression that some people's views are being clouded by their utter disdain for 3PV.

Edited by Mystere, 24 March 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[Mystere]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 24 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Ive seen TONS of examples of how they cant do it

Please enlighten me then on what those TONS of examples are?

[Volthorne]

If we limit 3PV to only display what we'd normally be given in FPV... Why use 3PV in the first place? At that point you wouldn't even get to see the legs of your 'Mech, so the "newbie friendly" thing becomes null and void....

[Adrian Steel]

As of this post: 29,600 views on this thread. 22 likes for the original post. Unheard of on this forum.

Better hope that capturing the nebulous market segment that doesn't frequent the forums is worth it.

[JokerVictor]

Adrian Steel, on 24 March 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

As of this post: 29,600 views on this thread. 22 likes for the original post. Unheard of on this forum.

Better hope that capturing the nebulous market segment that doesn't frequent the forums is worth it.

That market segment of screaming children will never enjoy this game. The learning curve is far too high, 3rd person or no. I'm going to watch with great enjoyment from the sidelines as this game slowly kills itself.

Edited by JokerVictor, 24 March 2013 - 09:45 PM.

[Mystere]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 24 March 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

theres 44 pages of it in this thread alone. Im not doing your homework for you if youre THAT lazy

cant help but noticing though youve failed to provide an example

Here's one way: use the Fog of War design pattern. And because I have no further incentive in typing (you did call me lazy), nor do I want to plagiarize anything, you can just start here and proceed as you wish.

As for this 44+ page thread, unless I've missed something (it is 44 freaking pages!!!), there was no example given of why 3PV was not or could not be implemented properly, only samples of it being not.

[JokerVictor]

Mystere, on 24 March 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Here's one way: use the Fog of War design pattern. And because I have no further incentive in typing (you did call me lazy), nor do I want to plagiarize anything, you can just start here and proceed as you wish.

As for this 44+ page thread, unless I've missed something (it is 44 freaking pages!!!), there was no example given of why 3PV was not or could not be implemented properly, only samples of it being not.

You missed the point entirely. But do carry on.

[Franchi]

Mystere, on 24 March 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Here's one way: use the Fog of War design pattern. And because I have no further incentive in typing (you did call me lazy), nor do I want to plagiarize anything, you can just start here and proceed as you wish.

As for this 44+ page thread, unless I've missed something (it is 44 freaking pages!!!), there was no example given of why 3PV was not or could not be implemented properly, only samples of it being not.

That is because said posts were deleted, if all the posts criticizing 3PV were not deleted this would be over 300 pages.

[Volkodav]

I , and my unit we support idea about that that 1P only for CW of matches, leagues, tournaments. And pubs matches - any kind(1P and(or) 3P).

Alexander Malthus, on 24 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

First of all it's really great to know that you understand problems you need to solve before even trying to implement 3P. Things like spreading of already not so thick playerbase, gameplay advantage, CW issues and the like.

For regular random queue allow turning 3P on and off as people prefer. Leave 8v8s 1P only. That way mass player will get an option for 3P and will have a little advantage while learning the ropes. And hardcore team pvp guys like myself will still have our balance at any 8v8.

If 3P goes live after CW then make 3P an option for all lonewolfs. Make it so that you can join\switch faction only ingame (not in forum settings). Same way as with first suggestion newbs get their easy start and mass players can fancy themselves with 3P sometimes without affecting CW-scale balance.

All official competitions should have 1P=on as one of the main requirements.

The main idea is to make 3P available as an option to new audience and keep it at basic random engagements ground. If competitive games are locked with 1P you have less balance issues there to care about. Hardcore wolfs are fed and newby sheeps are safe.



P.S.: I really hate 3P topic as I had enough of it's issues in MW3\4 online leagues already. Still you asked us to be constructive so... I tried.

P.P.S.: I'm from "non-NA community" btw. Russian to be precise. And I must say that many (if not all) competitive guys from our community really dislike 3P.

It would be desirable to add. For training of beginners it is necessary training mission with the elementary AI: movement, shooting, modules, HUDs elements\indications, mechlab - all problems will be solved in that case.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.

[Mystere]

Franchi, on 24 March 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

That is because said posts were deleted, if all the posts criticizing 3PV were not deleted this would be over 300 pages.

I'm pretty confident the mods will not mind if you or anyone else can repeat a sample of why it can't be done (as opposed to a sample of it not being done, which is really irrelevant). I'm sure they will take that information into consideration if it is indeed accurate.

JokerVictor, on 24 March 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

You missed the point entirely. But do carry on.

Please explain.

Edited by Mystere, 24 March 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[JustPyro]

I wrote this in a doc because it is long. Sorry about that. This is actually about half as long as my original reply, which goes into a second argument, but that's more along the lines of why the whole thing is a bad idea, so I cut it out.


Here are the reasons listed for implementing a 3rd Person view:

Quote

Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating.

Offers up a different style of gameplay and tactics.

1: 3rd person should be allowed in the training grounds, and in any single player aspects to allow for pretty pictures. A mode locked only to your mech that removes the HUD and allows for marketing style photographs. No targeting or firing should be allowed, and the camera always looks at your mech. Anything not visible from the cockpit should not be visible in this mode. It allows a new player to check the orientation of the mech and admire the mech.

To reduce friction of the learning curve is a weak reason. Learning is doing, and practice makes perfect. Make a quick in-game tutorial going over weapons groups, targeting, heat management, and movement, like most FPS games. Even a game like Call of Duty with simple FPS controls had a quick tutorial. Make it skippable. This is the easiest way to get players used to Mechwarrior. Players can start in 3rd person mode to see how movement affects their mech. Then move to the cockpit.

2: To the second point, if we are locking down 3rd person to only see what you can see from the cockpit, how are you offering different gameplay and tactics? You’re offering another view that duplicates first person gameplay from a 3rd person view. There’s nothing new there.

3: I have a real concern with the splintering of the group. I have seen many comparisons to War Thunder, which I play very often. The difference is that War Thunder is centered on the arcade mode. That’s the main mode of the game. The more realistic modes have a VERY small audience. Small enough that I usually end up playing without 40% bots (in Historical Battle mode). I do not play full realistic because I don’t have a joystick, but I hear the wait times are even longer and fewer people play that game mode.

Mechwarrior Online started as a MW SIM, and has been slowly adding more casual components. But the core audience started on a SIM mode. Between this and the regional servers (please don’t segregate the regions - another time perhaps), the fragmentation is a very real risk.


I think there's a good reason for a 3rd person view. Today's gamers aren't as patient as yesterday's. They want to pick up a game quickly and have fun. Using 3rd person as a training tool will speed things up, but it should be used to help them embrace the classic MW feel. The feel of being a MechWarrior in a cockpit, atop a machine of war. I know that feel, bro. It's a good feel.

Sincerely,
A concerned player

[Mystere]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 24 March 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

ah, youre too lazy to click on the double arrow that brings you to page one and read it yourself so you want others to do it for you is that it?

Huh? I am not seeing anything in page 1 (or any subsequent pages) that shows why it cannot be done (i.e. technical justification on why it is impossible or very difficult to do), only why it should not be done (i.e. people do not want it to even exist). As such, give me the post number (or even direct URL) of even just one.

[Mystere]

der langsamere, on 24 March 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

ah semantics. Fun game when you cant back up your argument any other way.

And again: Huh?

The point of this thread is:

"We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed."

which I interpret to mean "how can we (PGI) make 3rd person view work well". Further follow ups from Bryan and Paul indicate this as well.


And I'm the one playing games?

[Adrian Steel]

Mystere, on 24 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

And I'm the one playing games?

Yes. In short order, you'll be one of the only golds playing this game.

[Mystere]

Adrian Steel, on 24 March 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Yes. In short order, you'll be one of the only golds playing this game.

I myself prefer 1PV. But if 3PV helps more people get into the game, then so be it. And as long as I still find the game fun, I will continue to play and as such will most likely not miss any of you golds who decide to leave.

[valkyrie]

JustPyro, on 24 March 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

1: 3rd person should be allowed in the training grounds, and in any single player aspects to allow for pretty pictures. A mode locked only to your mech that removes the HUD and allows for marketing style photographs. No targeting or firing should be allowed, and the camera always looks at your mech. Anything not visible from the cockpit should not be visible in this mode. It allows a new player to check the orientation of the mech and admire the mech.

To reduce friction of the learning curve is a weak reason. Learning is doing, and practice makes perfect. Make a quick in-game tutorial going over weapons groups, targeting, heat management, and movement, like most FPS games. Even a game like Call of Duty with simple FPS controls had a quick tutorial. Make it skippable. This is the easiest way to get players used to Mechwarrior. Players can start in 3rd person mode to see how movement affects their mech. Then move to the cockpit.

Something I'll tag onto this while we're beating the "new player experience" (NPE) horse to death: movement is NOT the only thing that is confusing to new players. There's a lot of things in MechWarrior that we sorta know from experience and take for granted that new players will have NO idea existed. Things like weapon grouping, heat management, arm convergence, location-based damage and how to kill a 'Mech (ESPECIALLY this; the whole "destroy STD/XL engine or two legs" thing is WAY different than most games; when's the last time you played a game with location-based damage that wasn't a MW title?), target acquisition via lock-ons, ECM...all of these gameplay elements are explained NOWHERE, and all of them represent a MASSIVE learning curve when thrown at a new player all at once with no way to learn the system.

Then you get into the actual construction of a 'Mech once they've grinded through the 25 horrible, horrible games in 'Mechs that are rarely anywhere near newbie-friendly, much less competitive in the current metagame environment. Most people are going to just boot the uninstaller rather than come here to ask for help or blunder through another 25-50 games before they finally figure out "oh hey my 'Mech sucks," then suffer through yet ANOTHER round of grinding to fix said 'Mech.

Learning movement is easy as sin in comparison, especially to anyone who's ever driven a tank in a modern game like Battlefield or World of Tanks. It's the actual art of building and piloting a 'Mech that goes right over everyone's heads and causes new players to quit in frustration, NOT "oh I can't get the hang of looking one way while my legs go the other". To say 3rd person is here to fix the NPE is to completely miss the actual issue with the NPE. Sure, we have videos, but people's attention spans are a lot longer when they can go hands-on right away.

We need a tutorial mode for EVERYTHING. Simple as that.

Edited by valkyrie, 24 March 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[ryoma]

This and a post I made a few days ago are gonna be quoted by me when devs get back so they can read them. Just writing them now while writing is fresh.

Currently the most complex game I know of is EVE online. While MWO is a very complex game, I don't believe it is AS complex. EVE has a very long set of tutorial missions that help a new play get started and features in game to contact other players for help. I believe MWO can borrow some ideas from EVE.


1. Currently we have the 4 trial mechs. In the future make it so that our trial mechs are obtained after a tutorial and we have them permanently. Heck even make new chassis for them called "Jenner-Trial" and such. Make them have 0 module slots, can only unlock basic efficiencies, cannot be sold, and only count for eliting a chassis, not mastering it. Also have them start with either an XL engine/and or double heat sinks. Make them unable to be customized, but with decent builds and heat efficiency.

2. Once guilds/clans/corps are established have a default guild that all new accounts join. Also a tutorial on how guilds work. Ask helpful members of the community to join this clan to help tackle newbie questions. Also have devs join the clan with an alt so that they can help newbies personally.

3. Implement 3rd person view. Have a tutorial explaining both modes. I don't know the best way to have 3PV look in game, but I think seeing the death machine we pilot will help new players.

4. Make 3PV available only in pick up games (the current launch button), but disable it when in a group or when doing CW. 3PV may be an advantage, but so what. Let it be an advantage. As long as it's limited to the non-persistent and hardcore part of the game it wont matter much. In LoL people use "normals" to screw around, the same could be said here.

TL;DR: Tips on new player experience. 3PV is ok for pick up games. Keep it out of CW and tournaments.