2002 replies to this topic

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Cut the exploitation factor of 3rd person. Make it so it's usable for those who want to brawl in 3rd person, but not so if gives any advantage over 1st person players. If it doesn't allow cheats, then I will have no complaints.

Definitely make the spectator mode with a 3rd person view option. People would love to just watch giant robot gladiators fighting it out.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 13 May 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[EvilCow]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 13 May 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

If it doesn't allow cheats, then I will have no complaints.

It does, being it entirely handled on the client side it will be easily exploitable. The more obvious cheat would be to enabled it in 1PV-only games, the other options is to change the point of view in order to have an even more advantageous view position.

Nor it would be easily detectable because observers would have the POV of their un-hacked clients.

It is a bad idea in so many ways.

Edited by EvilCow, 14 May 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented.

.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

Understand we're not debating the merits of having 3rd person or not.

How should 3rd person be implemented..??? Here goes...

#1. To get the option to use 3rd person there will be a 30,000 GXP buy in unlock the module.
#2. To get 3rd person there would be a $98,000,000 C-Bill buy in, to equip it.
#3. All Mechs using 3rd person should have training wheels graphically attached to their mechs for all to see.
#4. All Mechs using 3rd person have their weapons damage reduced by 15%
#5. 3rd person view does not allow pilots to see "OVER" terrain.

But to be serious, I really don't know why the question "how it should be implemented." even matters, it's 3rd person view, and 3rd person view is implemented pretty much the same in every game I have seen it used..

My suggestion however is this... You know how you have to hold down control for cockpit view..??
That is how it should be used, you should have to hold down a button constantly for it to be used, and "NO" toggle 3rd person option at all.

[Sulf]

Wow. You're still stuck on this junk. Maybe the camera view ISN'T what's scaring away new players. Maybe it's the prices.

[EvilCow]

Well, at least make it even, who is using 3PV behind a hill should have a long pole on the mech with a camera on top and a banner showing random pearls of wisdom like: "noob below" or "i am the silent majority" or "this is just my position at this time".

[CyBerkut]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 13 May 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Cut the exploitation factor of 3rd person. Make it so it's usable for those who want to brawl in 3rd person, but not so if gives any advantage over 1st person players. If it doesn't allow cheats, then I will have no complaints.

Even without an 'exploit' or code hacking, 3PV will convey an advantage (over 1PV) to its users in the same match. You can see things in 3PV that are not visible to a 1PV user. *That* alone, without getting into the other stuff, gives a 3PV user an advantage.

Keep 3PV players segregated.

Quote

Definitely make the spectator mode with a 3rd person view option. People would love to just watch giant robot gladiators fighting it out.

Then they should play on a 3PV server. Or better yet, PGI could implement a replay function, and allow 3PV in the replays after the match is over.

Of course the simple thing to do for people who "would love to just watch giant robot gladiators fighting it out", is to watch them do it while they are still in the game, in their cockpits. I've been able to watch plenty of 'robot gladiators' fight it out. No 3PV is necessary for that.

Odins Fist, on 14 May 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

My suggestion however is this... You know how you have to hold down control for cockpit view..??
That is how it should be used, you should have to hold down a button constantly for it to be used, and "NO" toggle 3rd person option at all.

That button hold down won't help. A macro can handle that for the pilot.

[RedDragon]

EvilCow, on 14 May 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Well, at least make it even, who is using 3PV behind a hill should have a long pole on the mech with a camera on top and a banner showing "i am the silent majority" .

Hehe, that is priceless

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Brickyard, on 14 May 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

Wow. You're still stuck on this junk. Maybe the camera view ISN'T what's scaring away new players. Maybe it's the prices.

Quote

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:
This thread is not about whether or not 3rd person should it exist. Rather, we want your feedback on how it should be implemented.

But this is a much easier thing to put the blame on gais, just like if the game tanks everyone will blame me and Vassago Rain (who I dont think even posts)

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Many people just want 3rd person view to marvel at their mechs from time to time. This is easily achievable in the manner very similar to the current cockpit view - you hold down a button, you move camera around your mech. While doing this you can't see your crosshairs and other information and stats.
Personally I think the 3rd person view is not a very good thing for action and it spawns too many concerns.
It MAY be more comfortable to some people who are used to 3rd person games, but does it mean it will make the game easier or more understandable to such people. And does it mean they can go to whatever genre they want and claim for 3rd person perspective there? MWO was positioned as a simulator, and it IS a very nice and potent simulator. No place for playable 3rd person camera here imo.
It would be much more worthwhile to give the game a proper 1st person view, make it sweeter than any 3rd person. Make us really feel dat 10 meters above the ground! Add more interactivity, make those monitors work and clicking buttons actually DO something. Let us see the pilot's hands more often (and the mech's hands too))). This will make those 3rd camera people long for such a great 1st person in other games and come to MWO to feel it.

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 15 May 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 15 May 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Many people just want 3rd person view to marvel at their mechs from time to time. This is easily achievable in the manner very similar to the current cockpit view - you hold down a button, you move camera around your mech. While doing this you can't see your crosshairs and other information and stats.
Personally I think the 3rd person view is not a very good thing for action and it spawns too many concerns.
It MAY be more comfortable to some people who are used to 3rd person games, but does it mean it will make the game easier or more understandable to such people. And does it mean they can go to whatever genre they want and claim for 3rd person perspective there? MWO was positioned as a simulator, and it IS a very nice and potent simulator. No place for playable 3rd person camera here imo.
It would be much more worthwhile to give the game a proper 1st person view, make it sweeter than any 3rd person. Make us really feel dat 10 meters above the ground! Add more interactivity, make those monitors work and clicking buttons actually DO something. Let us see the pilot's hands more often (and the mech's hands too))). This will make those 3rd camera people long for such a great 1st person in other games and come to MWO to feel it.

Then put the camera in the mechlab. fixed!
AND you could even spin the mech and add a counter to count your spins!

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 15 May 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Us: "We dont want it."

The, "Dont let the door hit you where the good lord split you, *****"

[Sedit]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Honest answer.

The analysis on those who voted, showed that the majority of votes came from a very narrow demographic of our player base. And while they represent some of core players, they did not necessarily represent the opinion of the general user base. The majority of our players never visit, post, or read the forum content, so the poll could be considered weighted in favour of a specific demographic.

Since the majority of players who have an issue with 3rd person come generally from the core players, we elected to address this issue via this forum post to collect all of the concerns and ideas that this group faces or has with 3rd person.

Why not put a survey on the home page in game, you could also add a small reward for participating. This should give a more accurate answer and put to rest most of the arguments.

[Kojin]

The problem with 3rd person views is not really down to people thinking it would "ruin" the sim-type nature of a game such as this but is the extended field of view gained from a camera outside and behind.

The 'standard' 3rd person view of above and back generally gives more view over objects both close and at intermediate distances. Even a relatively small height increase changes your view over close to medium ranges rather drastically.

The secondary 3rd person view of over the shoulder/slightly off to one side (like Dead Space and Mass Effect) gives the problem of being able to see round corners to a degree, which is a very real advantage when timing your shoot and cover tactics.

There's a couple of other 3rd person variations that have similar problems too. They all have the same issue : being able to see too much from the perspective you "should" be able to. The only ways to overcome or work around these problems that I can think of would be to have weird and severe obscuration of the 'extra' viewable areas in such a way it would make the game look odd.

Many people in favour of 3rd person will often sugest it would be no different to allowing the FOV options, but they forget that a change in FOV from the default whilst inside the cockpit just changes how much cockpit you see and nothing more. Many will also say that there's also the disadvantage of not being able to see through yourself, thus the mech model would cause its own issues. Games will often make the player model disappear or fade to work around this, in MWO it would make 3rd person an almost outright advantage.

... My thoughts on it.. I hope I made some sense and give someone a thought or two to work with...

I also agree with Sedit above, give a general open poll linked prominently on the front page with a small reward for taking part in it. Probably the only way to get a more full opinion of it from more of the population of MWO.

Personally I would never use a 3rd person view whilst playing, but would use it in spectator mode, though I see this would give a mild advantage with game chat being as it is. The other place I would gladly have a 3rd person view is in testing grounds and any other such 'single player' modes, simply so I can take some cool screenshots of my mech and see how it looks on the field. A free-cam option in the single player modes would be ideal for this.

[Hotthedd]

Sedit, on 17 May 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Why not put a survey on the home page in game, you could also add a small reward for participating. This should give a more accurate answer and put to rest most of the arguments.

Because if they did that, and did not get the outcome that they wanted, they could not use the "not proportionally represented" excuse.

[Hellcat420]

i despise 3rd person view, but as long as i dont have to play with people using 3rd person i have no problem with them adding it to the game.

[Flux Reversal]

"Why add 3rd person?

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating."

Does not compute. We are gamers. Are you expecting to pull non-gamers into the world of gaming by MWO's sheer awesomeness? *.....silent pause,.... a few random giggles......* Because it sounds like those are the people your targeting based upon your statement.

I say this because there are very few 3rd person shooters today. None that I know of that are taken seriously or a blockbuster. Most modern popular games are FPS. The kind of skill required to be good in FPS is ONE of the valuable skills required to be good in MWO.

These same individuals clamoring for 3rd person are either not FPS gamers or just not good. They just want EZ mode. Go play the new Neverwinter, its EZ mode. Or just adapt to the way the game is. Just like we all do as the game itself changes.

So I don't buy your reason "why". Now if you were actually honest with us when you make these statements as you are in your board room discussions the "why" would be more along these lines:

"The more people we have coming to the game increases our chances of gaining a paying customer. And that's what this is about. This is a business not Goodwill. And since this is a business providing a service and the customer is our source of revenue, the customer is always right. So if potential paying customers want 3rd person, for the sake of our phatt bank accounts lets give it to them."

Edited by OZYM4NDI4S, 18 May 2013 - 04:56 AM.

[Hotthedd]

OZYM4NDI4S, on 18 May 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

"Why add 3rd person?

• Reduces friction for non-MechWarrior players, non-core players, and expands the MWO market to a broader audience. It helps to make the game more accessible and less intimidating."

Does not compute. We are gamers. Are you expecting to pull non-gamers into the world of gaming by MWO's sheer awesomeness? *.....silent pause,.... a few random giggles......* Because it sounds like those are the people your targeting based upon your statement.


I say this because there are very few 3rd person shooters today. None that I know of that are taken seriously or a blockbuster. Most modern popular games are FPS. The kind of skill required to be good in FPS is ONE of the valuable skills required to be good in MWO.

These same individuals clamoring for 3rd person are either not FPS gamers or just not good. They just want EZ mode. Go play the new Neverwinter, its EZ mode. Or just adapt to the way the game is. Just like we all do as the game itself changes.

So I don't buy your reason "why". Now if you were actually honest with us when you make these statements as you are in your board room discussions the "why" would be more along these lines:

"The more people we have coming to the game increases our chances of gaining a paying customer. And that's what this is about. This is a business not Goodwill. And since this is a business providing a service and the customer is our source of revenue, the customer is always right. So if potential paying customers want 3rd person, for the sake of our phatt bank accounts lets give it to them."

Unfortunately, they have never heard of the maxim "A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush". 3rd person view will either split the playerbase, or if mixed, drive out a large number of their established paying clients.

[Syrkres]

Issues I see with 3PV is since you won't have most of the HUD is aiming.

How will balistics line up? Lazer fire? Since you don't have the direct line of sight to these targets you can't tell if your going to hit, you would need the computer to take aim. There is NO other way to line up these types of shots.

You could possibly align the left to right, but definitely not the vertical alignment without introducing new HUD elements. Otherwise you need the computer to aim for you which is completely unfair.

[CyBerkut]

If they wanted a community-wide sample, they would put the questionnaire up as something you have to go through on the way in to playing the next time you log in to the game. No reward necessary, just an open set of check boxes with various possible approaches that you agree with, and the last one being "No opinion", and a submit button.

Of course, in the unlikely even that they did such a poll on the way in, what do you think the chances are that we would see the results? (yeah... me neither.)

Logically, though... even that poll scheme probably doesn't really work for their apparent thought process. They are not after the players that are already playing... they appear to be dreaming of drawing in hordes of new players. Those folks wouldn't be participating in a poll on the way into the game we have now.

I suspect that they are correct in thinking that a 3PV option will bring in new players, and it could be a large number. How long will those players stick around and spend money?... I don't know. PGI might have good market research that tells them it would represent a substantial addition of revenue... it's possible. Or it could be the IGP is telling PGI, "You WILL put 3PV in." and just be as simple as that. I don't know. Realistically, it doesn't much matter.

Go ahead and give the folks who won't play the 1PV that we have, their 3PV crutch. Give the folks who won't spend money on skins and paint schemes unless they can see it on the battlefield, their 3PV incentive. Just have the good sense to keep them away from our 1PV mode games.

1. Implement a 3PV mode in the training area map. Let it run for a patch cycle and get some feedback in the forums.
2. Implement a 3PV only mode in each type of the non-Community Warfare matches. The player either picks to play in 1PV only, or 3PV only. Let that run for a couple of months, or more. Collect data (How many NEW players rushed in to start playing? How many of the existing players switched over? How many are STILL playing after 2 months or more?)
3. Meanwhile, implement the Community Warfare as 1PV only. Collect data (How many 3PV players switched to 1PV in order to get into CW while it is 1PV only?)
4. At this point, you now have actual data, instead of some market research, or SWAG (Scientific Wild A$$ Guess), that you can base decisions upon more intelligently.

If they get their wished-for hordes of new players coming in and still only playing 3PV, but at least sticking around, then it could make sense to create a 3PV only CW universe.

Edited by CyBerkut, 18 May 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[CyBerkut]

Syrkres, on 18 May 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Issues I see with 3PV is since you won't have most of the HUD is aiming.

How will balistics line up? Lazer fire? Since you don't have the direct line of sight to these targets you can't tell if your going to hit, you would need the computer to take aim. There is NO other way to line up these types of shots.

You could possibly align the left to right, but definitely not the vertical alignment without introducing new HUD elements. Otherwise you need the computer to aim for you which is completely unfair.

The HUD is projected on the helmet's face shield. If they want to give that information to people using 3PV they can (it's just pixels and and data bits... PGI gets to decide what "makes sense" to do.)