358 replies to this topic

[Commander Kobold]

NRP, on 21 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

What the hell does"support weapon" mean to you?

apparently to most people it means long range nerf darts

[Commander Kobold]

Noobzorz, on 21 March 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

So you almost cored him with your totally 0 skill single button click?

OMG THEY SUCK.

WHAT THE **** DUDES.


Conclusion:

LRMs are a powerful support weapon instead of clearly dominant uber-primary.

you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Noobzorz]

NRP, on 21 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

I was one of the people who was annoyed with LRMs prior to today, but I really hate this type of over-reactionary change. I hate seeing weapons nerfed into obsolescence.

It's not obsolete. He stripped his CT armor.

How are people not getting that?

It was INSANITY to be able to oneshot mechs like the OP is expecting he's supposed to.

[Clay Pigeon]

Canon damage would be nice.

1 for LRMs 2 for SRMs.

Reduce splash even further if needed. HEAT warheads shouldn't really splash, anyway.

[Damocles69]

your easy button is broken... sorry bout that

[Commander Kobold]

Thontor, on 21 March 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

ok.. so your 50 tons of weaponry, using 0.56 tons of ammo stripped the CT

let's compare that to something like.. 7 PPCs... 49 tons... 70 damage.. direct to CT shot... assuming a 68/20 split on the armor ... you wouldve barely breached the CT armor.. and turned the internals yellow

yes not how long does it take for your PPCs to hit the target to get pretty much the exact same effect as 100 lrms?

[MuonNeutrino]

MadPanda, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Where are you basing that 100 LRM's shouldn't cripple the target heavily or outright kill them? I'm basing my expectations from what this game has been from the start; LRM's are a serious threath and using cover is what separates good players from the bads. 5xLRM20 damage total was before the nerf 180 dmg, you know what it is now? It's 70 dmg. So there also goes away your theory that tag or narc or even jesus himself could have made a difference. The damage is very low. I could maybe accept this if the tonnage / crit slots / heat were adjusted as well, but all we have now is a huge damage nerf with everything else unchanged.

If the LRMs were 'only' 70 damage, you wouldn't have done the damage you did. Cataphracts, assuming a reasonable but not excessive load of rear armor, are going to have a good 40-44 side torso and 64-68 center torso armor. You completely stripped the CT, did some damage to the CT internals, and did a good 30ish damage between the two side torsos, along with doing at least a bit of damage to *every single other area* on the mech! You probably did at least 120 total damage, if not more. That's at least 24 damage per launcher, which is pretty darn good for a 10 ton weapon - gauss, ac10, lb10x, and ac20 all do less and weigh more even without ammo.

Yes, 120 damage from other weapons would core the phract and kill it (barely - about 110 HP between the armor and internals) if it all hit the CT, but that's the difference between a support weapon and a finisher. Yes, LRMs might be a *bit* too low right now, but acting like this is the end of the world is ridiculous.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 21 March 2013 - 05:45 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

Clay Pigeon, on 21 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Canon damage would be nice.

1 for LRMs 2 for SRMs.

Reduce splash even further if needed. HEAT warheads shouldn't really splash, anyway.

to be fair the type of round isn't specified

[DEN_Ninja]

Tickdoff Tank, on 21 March 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

No you didn't. You may have fired 210 missiles, but you did not hit with 210 of them.

That is the point. Us LRM boats sacrificed just as much as any other build. We have always had to stock as much ammo in tonnage as our weapons.

Let's break this down. I have a Four, read that, Four LRM 10 Artemis Cat. I placed 6 tons of ammo on it because that is my max after everything.

This isn't even for killing. Every volley of LRM 10 is suppose to now deal 7 damage. I expect that half my shots miss. From the original 4x7 14 points of damage. Lets take from it again. I expect AMS to shoot down a quarter of the missiles that get in range. 8-9 damage now.

I paid a total of 20 tons + 40/180 tons of ammo to produce 8-9 damage.

I play the game, I was playing with my LRM Cat. I dealt a total of 157 damage with my build. I also carry 2 medium lasers. 50 Damage came from those lasers.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 21 March 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Hades Trooper, on 21 March 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Why **** with something when it was fine.

Because it wasn't 'fine'. Missiles were doing more damage per impact to more complex geometry mechs. For example the Commando was tested to recieve something 5-7 times as much damage from an SRM impact as intended, compared with an Atlas taking slightly more than listed damage. So the Command was taking ~5 times as much damage as the Atlas from the same impact (at best). Saying that's fine is saying having an AC/20 do 100 damage to Commandos is 'fine'.

[Mystere]

Which part of TEMPORARY did people not understand?

[Gaan Cathal]

Tichorius Davion, on 21 March 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

That is the point. Us LRM boats sacrificed just as much as any other build. We have always had to stock as much ammo in tonnage as our weapons.

Let's break this down. I have a Four, read that, Four LRM 10 Artemis Cat. I placed 6 tons of ammo on it because that is my max after everything.

This isn't even for killing. Every volley of LRM 10 is suppose to now deal 7 damage. I expect that half my shots miss. From the original 4x7 14 points of damage. Lets take from it again. I expect AMS to shoot down a quarter of the missiles that get in range. 8-9 damage now.

Read the quote below, you're ignoring the splash damage.

MuonNeutrino, on 21 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

If the LRMs were 'only' 70 damage, you wouldn't have done the damage you did. Cataphracts, assuming a reasonable but not excessive load of rear armor, are going to have a good 40-44 side torso and 64-68 center torso armor. You completely stripped the CT, did some damage to the CT internals, and did a good 30ish damage between the two side torsos, along with doing at least a bit of damage to *every single other area* on the mech! You probably did at least 120 total damage, if not more. That's at least 24 damage per launcher, which is pretty darn good for a 10 ton weapon - gauss, ac10, lb10x, and ac20 all do less and weigh more even without ammo.

Yes, 120 damage from other weapons would core the phract and kill it (barely - about 110 HP between the armor and internals) if it all hit the CT, but that's the difference between a support weapon and a finisher. Yes, LRMs might be a *bit* too low right now, but acting like this is the end of the world is ridiculous.

[Cpt Beefheart]

Holy **** some people know how to whinge.
This is a temporary fix for the insane splash damage. Missiles will get buffed again soon.

[Noobzorz]

Clay Pigeon, on 21 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Canon damage would be nice.

1 for LRMs 2 for SRMs.

Reduce splash even further if needed. HEAT warheads shouldn't really splash, anyway.

It is blowing my mind that people ever refer to the lore to discuss actual precise metrics. This is such unbelievably *** backwards thinking that it begs the question if this is your first computer game.

Yes. It's that absurd.
Table top "canon" is not an appropriate heuristic to use for balance in a real time mech simulator game. They are different things, and should be treated as independent of one another. If you want firing cones, D6s, and table top values, go down to your nearest hobby shop and play table top.

Cpt Beefheart, on 21 March 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Holy **** some people know how to whinge.
This is a temporary fix for the insane splash damage. Missiles will get buffed again soon.

I hope not.

The LRM boat is out. The LRM remains a useful AND POWERFUL support weapon (I saw some moron on my team QQing about how they were ruined before promptly getting legged by a pair of volleys and killed by the next).

There is lots of tweaking to be done, but where the LRM previously was can only be described as ******* insanity, and it would have been instantaneously hotfixed by most other organizations. People should be thankful that they got enough time to run riot with their single click insta-gg button.

Edited by Noobzorz, 21 March 2013 - 05:57 PM.

[Sybreed]

hmmm, I hope what you're saying is not:

You need to boat LRMs to deal decent damage.

That would make me sad, cause I don't boat lrms on any of my mechs that use them

I'll have to test this tomorrow, currently staying at a hotel right now and the wi-fi doesn't look like it could handle MWO...

[Jerod Drekmor]

Thontor, on 21 March 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

ok.. so your 50 tons of weaponry, using 0.56 tons of ammo stripped the CT

let's compare that to something like.. 7 PPCs... 49 tons... 70 damage.. direct to CT shot... assuming a 68/20 split on the armor ... you wouldve barely breached the CT armor.. and turned the internals yellow

or how about 4 AC/20s... that's 56 tons...0..57 tons of ammo used... 80 damage... strips the CT armor .. probably turns the internals yellow

I don't see the problem

especially since you not only stripped the CT armor, but did some damage to pretty much every other part of the mech as well

Dont forget You cant boat 7PPCs or 4 AC/20.......

[Fate 6]

Ph30nix, on 21 March 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

im sorry but MISSLES ARE SUPPOSED TO F THINGS UP. they are support in the way that they are long range and can be fired accurately at enemies

i get why noobs who cant use cover whine, but if there is something that 100 missles cant kill.... im going to run away screaming

oh im not saying the last extreme was right, but good lord they need this fixed already and people need to realize missles are supposed to be dangerous and you shouldnt sit in the rain

Nope. Missiles are a support weapon, as in they are mean to strip armor from a safe place, so that your teammates with the real firepower can kill things. Pre-hotfix, 100 LRMs would kill something. That was the problem. It should take a significant amount of LRMs to kill people. It makes no sense for a weapon of that type to kill people so quickly when others take time (and have to be aimed).

[MischiefSC]

I can't 1-shot someone in a 4xPPC boat or a 2xAC20 boat. All of which require me to stand well within just about any other weapons range, line up and aim a shot.

LRMs should be a support weapon. Not a weapon you've got brawlers around to protect and support.

That's the issue.

A support weapon means secondary. It supports other weapons. What we've had before is these 1-shot 1-kill missile boats that are fragile because they are otherwise worthless that you've got brawlers around to support and protect.

That's not a support weapon, that's an artillery platform. That's not what LRMs are or should be. LRMs should be a support weapon that supports the rest of the team.

We'll get ARROW IV in time. We'll get the ability to call in air strikes and artillery strikes. Perhaps we'll even have tactical mission objectives where to use air/arty strikes you've got to hold/protect key points on the map.

LRMs are not and should not be one-hit kill weapons. 1 mechs worth of ACs doesn't 1-shot kill someone. 1 mechs worth of lasers doesn't do it. Even 1 mechs worth of PPCs, a 1 shot then overheat sort of weapon doesn't 1 shot kill people. Nothing is or should be.

LRMs are about perfect now. You know if everyone on your team packed an LRM15 and provided support fire on targets even out of LOS attack range you'd have a powerful weapon. 1 mech loaded with LRMs though isn't any more dangerous than 1 mech loaded with anything else.

You can't shoot at targets closer than 180 meters, however you can shoot at people you don't have LOS to.

The only change I'd make now is a 25% increase in ammo per ton, in addition to ECM not blocking LRMs completely.

Dead on PGI, good patch, good change.

[Sybreed]

Fate 6, on 21 March 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Nope. Missiles are a support weapon, as in they are mean to strip armor from a safe place, so that your teammates with the real firepower can kill things. Pre-hotfix, 100 LRMs would kill something. That was the problem. It should take a significant amount of LRMs to kill people. It makes no sense for a weapon of that type to kill people so quickly when others take time (and have to be aimed).

the problem is:

should a mech be able to fire 100 lrms at once?

That sounds more like an actual problem.

[Sheraf]

Omni 13, on 21 March 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

yeah but what about people who don't boat 100 of the damned things, I'm seeing a lot of stock builds/balanced builds that are going to be pretty useless now

The LRM 10 on my stalker is now dead weight. Now people can walk around in the open, cover is optional Oh wait they still die by being shot at. I wonder which weapon is on the nerf list next.