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Remove Single Heatsinks From The Game


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#881 Protection

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:47 AM

View Postqki, on 28 March 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:


How about this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7ff81a04d35bcf3

Here's my phract. Feel free to "optimise" this terribad design with double heatsinks (there is one external, and 2 slots left, so it's not rocket science). The big question is: why? What do I need double heatsinks on this mech for? I never once got a heat warning in it, let alone shut down. Under a full barrage, an atlas will fal before i get to 60% heat.




http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5dd8592e121f132

Extra ton of ammo and way more heat efficient. And yes this thing can and does overheat.


You're bad at mechbuilds, you have repeatedly failed to read the thread or understand the arguments.

Also, you did well in a pug game - great. This has nothing - at all - to do with the argument. The argument is about mech builds and trying to give players meaningful choices rather than fake one dimensional choices.

#882 Atheus

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:00 AM

View Postqki, on 28 March 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Look how amazing I am with SHS!

Posted Image

Let's see, there are 2 STK-4N's which I can guarantee are trial mechs, if not they are owned by idiots (who buys a 4N?), also a DRG-1C which may also be a trial (though probably not since he did more damage than the bottom 5 on his team combined), your team has 2 RVN-4X's which I can guarantee are not apex predators of MWO. Lastly, you're the only founder in the match. Judging by this, you may be in the middle of the ELO range but most likely well below, because I can guarantee you trials do not move up the ELO brackets once they start playing.

Am I impressed that you can win by capping in a match filled with 16 newbies, for some reason leaving their 1 remaining trial stalker alive at the end of the match? No, not even a little bit. In fact you've pretty much confirmed what I already suspected about you. Congrats on scoring 689 damage against a bunch of newbies, though. Thanks for coming in here and sharing. DHS are still substantially better than SHS 100% of the time, though. The fact that you think this match result helps your case, or is even moderately relevant to this debate indicates you should really stop trying to contribute to the debate.

Edited by Atheus, 28 March 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#883 qki

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:05 AM

View PostProtection, on 28 March 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5dd8592e121f132

Extra ton of ammo and way more heat efficient. And yes this thing can and does overheat.


You're bad at mechbuilds, you have repeatedly failed to read the thread or understand the arguments.

Also, you did well in a pug game - great. This has nothing - at all - to do with the argument. The argument is about mech builds and trying to give players meaningful choices rather than fake one dimensional choices.



What the hell do I need an extra ton of ammo for? Never ran out (not even close). And like I said - never once got a heat warning.

I have to apologise though, for setting this trap for you, but somehow I felt it a safe bet that you'd bite.

My build is not optimised, because it's not supposed to be. I could upgrade it with DHS, but I just don't care about spending 1.5mil on something that hardly makes a difference at this point - I don't use this mech often enough for DHS to be higher on my priority list. And no - this thing does not overheat if you can play.

And that's the point I've been trying to get across - even though DHS are an upgrade, that's irrelevant. You are breaking your balls on something that is, ultimately, not important. I get enough heat dissipation with this mech to play at max efficiency, and get kills. And having more dissipation is just more of something that goes to waste. Upgrading to DHS does not magically improve the 'mech's performance - it's just redundant.


And Atheus - get off your high horse - you don't know jack. This thread is not about you apex predator duouchebags - it's about new players supposedly never having a chance unless they come equipped with DHS. You don't absolutely have to throw DHS on everything as a first upgrade or you have no chance of doing good.

And how the hell are you supposed to elite a raven without playing a 2X/4X?

Edited by qki, 28 March 2013 - 01:16 AM.


#884 Atheus

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:14 AM

View Postqki, on 28 March 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

Upgrading to DHS does not magically improve the 'mech's performance - it's just redundant.

You're just too clever for me. I give up. Please accept this victory ribbon and be on your way.

#885 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:29 AM

View PostPhatel, on 27 March 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:


They make sense because PGI says they do. I'm not sure how you pretend that some portions of this game need to make sense and then others do not but that is kind of a wonky idea. DHS work fine, so do SHS. Wanting free doubles is more about being cheap than any other real arguement. When the OP said...he give everyone DHS! What you should have read was..Hey I don't like spending 1.5mil on my mechs to upgrade HS, can you just give me DHS for free.


*Imagine for a moment that most of the people that say something like "Remove Single Heat Sinks" or "make Single Heat Sinks competitive to Double Heat Sinks" would still say that even if they had infinite money and/or the upgrade cost didn't exist (maybe because they got a special exemption note by Bryan Eckman that they don't need to pay for it, because they are just that cool).

Now try to read their posts, follow their thoughts, and try to figure out what they are really arguing about.

*Why imagine that? Because they would.


PS: For Non-Existing Entity's Sake, anyone that ever wondered how heat sinks work - read this: http://mwomercs.com/...ble-heat-sinks/
And this if you still don't believe it: http://mwomercs.com/...0089-breakdown/

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 March 2013 - 01:33 AM.


#886 qki

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:29 AM

way to miss the point dude. Although I take the blame for making that statement a bit vague. I meant mechs like that atlas, and phract mentioned (and someone threw in a stalker or an awesome somwhere).

Mechs that have good enough dissipation with SHS - those mechs stand very little to gain with DHS - more dissipation is just more going to waste.

#887 POWR

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:48 AM

I run builds that use SHS, works fine. Stop hating.

#888 xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:53 AM

I've yet to ever see or come across a build that isn't simply superior by having Doubles. Singles are downright obsolete. Every Mech I've built has Doubles and I don't see how not having them would be anything other than a handicap to the build. Not every build can fit D+ES, but you're better off with D than ES if you can't get both. Not having Doubles means you'll waste too much weight stacking Singles or run too hot. Simply put, there is no contest. I'm not being an elitist, as some posters seem to think, I'm simply stating the reality of the situation. Singles are just worthless, and you should drop them as soon as you can in every Mech you play.

#889 Thirdstar

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:09 AM

View Postqki, on 28 March 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

way to miss the point dude. Although I take the blame for making that statement a bit vague. I meant mechs like that atlas, and phract mentioned (and someone threw in a stalker or an awesome somwhere).

Mechs that have good enough dissipation with SHS - those mechs stand very little to gain with DHS - more dissipation is just more going to waste.


I'll chime in here as well. You've won the argument, here's your E-trophy. You're right, everyone else is wrong. Please see yourself out of the thread. Cheers.

#890 qki

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:21 AM

View PostThirdstar, on 28 March 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:


I'll chime in here as well. You've won the argument, here's your E-trophy. You're right, everyone else is wrong. Please see yourself out of the thread. Cheers.


That's the problem - it's not about people being right or wrong - it's about them arguing different points and twisting the universe (our universe, not the CBT one) to make them match.

@ Bluten: Now that's just plain wrong. Nobody (at least nobody with a brain) is arguing that DHS are not better than SHS. Point is - you don't need to upgrade EVERYTHING. Besides the commando mentioned (must have endo to work, and is better off with FF than DHS), that 3xUAC5phract can run just fine with singles.

Yes - you CAN upgrade it with DHS, and the game will tell you it is now better, but once you take it out for a match, you'll notice that nothing has really changed. The mech was cool enough to begin with, and giving it even better heat efficiency w\is just redundant.

And yes - you are trying to be elitist, if only by stating that "everyone MUST use DHS, and everyone else is worthless, and there is no other valid point". All despite being proven wrong - there is another valid point. It's called "some mechs don't need an upgrade to DHS". Yes - DHS are still an upgrade for those mechs, but a very minor one.

#891 Thirdstar

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:53 AM

View Postqki, on 28 March 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Yes - DHS are still an upgrade for those mechs, but a very minor one.


Yes you're absolutely right. Feel free to leave now.

#892 Kattspya

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:39 AM

qki, an extra ton of ammo and almost double sustained DPS are very minor upgrades that are definately not worth 1.5 Mcbills.

#893 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:40 AM

View PostShumabot, on 27 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:


You had a problem with one of my system fixes "appearing to be mixed doubles and singles". That is canon. That is canon applied in an overtly damaging way to prevent a system from being something that isn't nonsense. Double heatsinks are nonsense in this game. In BT they are a straight up upgrade and in this game that is something that they must not be to maintain balance.

Therefore canon has to either be abandoned or ignored for this aspect of this game to be improved. I am perfectly ok with this. I don't care about canon. BT died 15 years ago, I'm perfectly ok with whoever holds the IP changing it in what ways they wish. I honestly wish they would go a lot farther, then maybe the franchise could actually come into 2013.

It was made a canon build, it uses advanced rules which players can refuse to use if they choose. I don't see it as something that should not happen. In the near future most Mechs will have double sinks and singles will be nearly extinct in most builds.So patience is what is required. Paying for an obvious upgrade. I don't remember the cost for doing this on TT, and Yes as a former GM I did charge the players to make the Upgrades and payed them when I was playing. there are some of us who look at this and are fine with the cost. Sure we would like to to be lower, then again I don't wanna pay $28K for a Mustang either.

I am here to play the Clan Invasion. in it's entirety. I want that canon in the game. I was/am against the removal of R&R it makes the game easier. I don't have to worry if my Gauss destroys my XL, I don't have to fix it! My ride is magically repaired when I get back to the Mechbay. BattleTech did not die 15 years ago, I was a Commando less than 10 years ago. If new products are coming out the game is not dead. If you followed BattleCorps you'd know they have come into 2013. There is new stories and sourcebooks coming out, Dead is an exaggeration.

What problem do you have with doubles being a straight upgrade? See I have no problem spending the 1.5 Mil to improve my mech(s). What's the point of making money in game if you don't have to spend it? I have bought, upgraded and sold nearly every Mech in the game over 30 tons. I have 3 alternate accounts for testing Elo and other things. All of my Mechs on those accounts are also upgraded to doubles. Without the crutch of a founders tag. If I can upgrade three accounts with 4-6 Mechs each to having Double sinks in under a month, I cannot see your argument against paying for double sink upgrades. As I have done it multiple times over. and have money building up for my next foray into Grinding XP.

From the way I read it. There will be planets for folks like you who just want to fight, and for people like me who want to play the storyline. I intend on becoming a 10th Lyran Guard, And being on Huntress as Khan Osis head rolls. I hope to actually be alive long enough to see Joe On Earth as the AMC (and the BattleCorps) defeat the Word of Blake. And this game can cater to both you and I.

#894 Kdogg788

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:33 AM

View PostAtheus, on 27 March 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

I find catching up today I just scroll past the text blocks from certain posters. Hey, new topic: I'm making a new F2P racing game, and every player starts off with access to brand new stock honda civic, ford focus or chevy volt automobiles. Over time they'll be able to earn money to buy their own car where they can add engine and suspension upgrades (to make them actually function like race cars) or even buy a Formula 1 Car, but generally speaking everyone will be tossed onto the track with whatever car they bring. That way Formula 1 owners who can't cut it against other Formula 1 cars will probably just lose until they're racing their 250 mph race car against the stock civics and chevy volts. Sounds good? Oh, by the way, new players will start off racing against modified ferraris and other supercars, but after losing maybe 30 or 40 matches they'll be down in the brackets where the other newbies and mentally challenged veterans in 110 mph production cars run. This way, whether it be by superior equipment or superior skill everyone can walk away a winner (aside from the newbies they're just fukd)!

Please support my new game!
Posted Image


I have this game. It's called "Real Racing 2" for the iPad. I like to drive in my Camaro, but unfortunately I can't drive multiplayer because everyone drives the same uber car, which you can also obtain by paying into the game. Unsurprisingly most of the drivers can't handle their supercars, and drive em into walls and such, but the game is so forgiving that unless they start the race and leave their iPad on a table, they will be faster than me. This is also a major exaggeration of the mech lab situation here. Yes Trial Mechs are useless but the gulf between SHS and DHS mechs is not as bad as the gap between cars in this game.


View PostShumabot, on 27 March 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:


In order of ease:

1. Make double heat sinks 1.0 in engine, 2.0 outside, making so that space was actually a meaningful consideration. I haven't done any testing with these numbers, and that could be too onerous to DHS, you run out of space pretty damn fast with dubs. These are spread sheet numbers. PGI could hotfix this with like two hours behind them. This would seriously shift the metagame away from energy boats, which at the moment would be great considering the sheer dominance of the ppc. It would probably hurt non ppc laserboats too badly, but then again those values can be fixed via a hotfix too. These aren't hard to change.

2. Alter heat scaling so that capacity across the board is lowered but cooldown is greatly increased. Right now heat management is a joke. It's a system of containment, not of management. Most of the games powerbuilds can kill most of the others before overheating or function in a way that makes heat pointless (poptarts for instance). This is because heat is capacity first and recovery second, if a mech can take 80 heat and it takes 60 heat to kill something then there is no heat control system. If that same mech suddenly only had 40 heat capacity, but his guage emptied twice as fast it would force him to actually space out his shots (part of that alphastrike metagame people keep complaining about). With this change I would make it so that doubles would have twice the capacity but identical cooldown. A DHS mech would be able to fire bigger alphas longer, but wouldn't be able to sustain as well. This would be a much more major overhaul of the system.

I've thought of a few others, but they're mostly just permutations of these two. I honestly don't understand why they ended up with 2.0 1.4 for DHS numbers. Those are idiotic, anyone could see (and many did see) that they would lead to exactly what is happening now. A 1.5 mil tax on new mechs. I actually suspect it's an intentional tax meant to prolong the grind, but if it is it's a terribly thought out one that severely damages new players experiences with the game and punishes casual habituation.


1. I think on comment 1 it would be much better in reverse and retain the intent of what the original post was all about. What if you made all engine heat sinks count as 2.0, then make singles outside the engine 1.0 and doubles 2.0. In many mech builds, a good proportion of sinks are in the engine, and that's where the major difference occurs.

2. Comment 2 is a little extreme for what needs to be changed, especially in light of clan tech. The main builds that are helped by having the heat scale the way it is are SRM cats and PPC Stalkers, which are gimmicky builds that are able to be beaten if you counter their weaknesses. Even poptarts are vulnerable if you get right up on them and don't let them hop, fire, cool, and repeat on you.

3. We tried DHS as 1.0/2.0 when doubles first came into play and it was proven that it didn't really work, and resulted in a massive outcry against that system. 2.0 all on the engine and 1.0SHS, 2.0DHS outside could work, but I don't see them as coming up on here and re-balancing the game in accordance to what a small subset of the forum population is proposing.

-k

#895 Shumabot

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:57 AM

Quote

3. We tried DHS as 1.0/2.0 when doubles first came into play and it was proven that it didn't really work, and resulted in a massive outcry against that system. 2.0 all on the engine and 1.0SHS, 2.0DHS outside could work, but I don't see them as coming up on here and re-balancing the game in accordance to what a small subset of the forum population is proposing.


That outcry came from ignorant golds who whined about anything that didn't mimick TT. This forum is idiotic, well and truly. This community wants a braindead playerless game. I've said a dozen times that I don't respect this communities ability to reason in a basic sense, and I still don't. They don't have that ability, nor can they remember more than five minutes into their past. A small subset of this forum? This forum is majority founders, people willing to spend hundreds on thin air and a dream. These people are now defending gold flush, airstrikes, and in the last week I've seen polls saying that BAP is a bigger issue than command console or dubs and that the LBXAC10 is just fine. This forum is fundamentally worthless and the games designers use reddit because they know that.

Quote

What problem do you have with doubles being a straight upgrade? See I have no problem spending the 1.5 Mil to improve my mech(s). What's the point of making money in game if you don't have to spend it?


Case in point. Ol' joe here has the memory of a goldfish and just wants to keep his newbie hazing pointless upgrade system. He can't remember the six times (literally six *********) i've told you all what is wrong with that system and what I believe. You are all either master clase ruseman trolls or you're ex boxers who are severely punchy going into your 60s. Either way, ugh.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 05:59 AM.


#896 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:08 AM

Yup Thirdstar, you are right. All the animosity and pigheadedness on this whole topic is coming from Mr, Joseph, Tesunie and QKI.

Sorry dude, but any who looks through the last 5 pages with anything other than a leet programmer bias, will call BS on that. And the last page or two, you've been as dismissive and disruptive as you accuse me of. Essentially 3 people have been trying to hold that reasonable discussion, and it ain't been on Team ShumaThirdProtection.

Lolz.

#897 Kdogg788

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:27 AM

View PostShumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

That outcry came from ignorant golds who whined about anything that didn't mimick TT. This forum is idiotic, well and truly. This community wants a braindead playerless game. I've said a dozen times that I don't respect this communities ability to reason in a basic sense, and I still don't. They don't have that ability, nor can they remember more than five minutes into their past. A small subset of this forum? This forum is majority founders, people willing to spend hundreds on thin air and a dream. These people are now defending gold flush, airstrikes, and in the last week I've seen polls saying that BAP is a bigger issue than command console or dubs and that the LBXAC10 is just fine. This forum is fundamentally worthless and the games designers use reddit because they know that.


That's what I don't get about many things that people post. Battletech has always been a microscopic niche game. I played it when I was 9/10 years old back in 1987/1988. I honestly don't know anyone who plays TT because it's such an obscure game and if they say they do, most times they're FOS. No one I know outside this forum has even heard of it. It's a dice and board game made in the mid-80s so I agree that people shouldn't be quoting minutiae from the Battletech rulebooks and technical readouts. It's like complaining that some hero mechs aren't canon. Who cares? I'd never heard of any one of the anyways. Coolant flush is r etarded. Just injects something in the game that will cause issues for no reason, and is something no one in their right mind is going to invest MC in. Airstrikes? Thank god we don't have them yet. BAP does what it's supposed to. It's just a little sensor buff.

The whole SHS/DHS thing isn't what I rage about. It's the fact that we're what several months into OB and there's no news whatsoever on what's going on with CW. If they plan on starting next month, they can at least give us a roadmap of what they plan on doing in the future. It's all well and good that they are dropping a 6750MC! hero mech on us, but we'd like to see some actual content beyond a crazy expensive hero mech.

-k

Edited by Kdogg788, 28 March 2013 - 06:28 AM.


#898 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostShumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:


That outcry came from ignorant golds who whined about anything that didn't mimick TT. This forum is idiotic, well and truly. This community wants a braindead playerless game. I've said a dozen times that I don't respect this communities ability to reason in a basic sense, and I still don't. They don't have that ability, nor can they remember more than five minutes into their past. A small subset of this forum? This forum is majority founders, people willing to spend hundreds on thin air and a dream. These people are now defending gold flush, airstrikes, and in the last week I've seen polls saying that BAP is a bigger issue than command console or dubs and that the LBXAC10 is just fine. This forum is fundamentally worthless and the games designers use reddit because they know that.



Case in point. Ol' joe here has the memory of a goldfish and just wants to keep his newbie hazing pointless upgrade system. He can't remember the six times (literally six *********) i've told you all what is wrong with that system and what I believe. You are all either master clase ruseman trolls or you're ex boxers who are severely punchy going into your 60s. Either way, ugh.
You have said six times you don't wanna pay for the upgrade. You call it a tax, That's fine, But see I am on the other side of the fence and am ok with paying the price for the upgrade. It hasn't taken me but a few hours to get Doubles on all my Mechs so I find it hard to accept your view.

See as soon as I disagree with you, you instantly get all defensive. There is no need to go there. I don't insult you as I could. But I carry myself better than that. I am trying to discuss this, to find a good medium, because there is no convincing me we have to get rid of the 1.5 Mil cost to upgrade. Now if you want to discuss how to fix the mechanics of sinks that will be a better topic. It is not newbie hazing, Like I said I have played 3 alt account this last month, and had double sinks on my Mechs within 2 hours of purchase. That is minimal grinding. I ground through 3 Ravens and into a 4SP with doubles in 2-3 days. Wow punishing players? I think not. The idea that it is punishing the new player is exaggerated.

If a play is unwilling to invest a few hours to get their ride up to snuff, then maybe this isn't the game for them. In less than 4 hours I had a Raven-2X equipped with doubles, 4 Hours later I had a 4X with doubles... didn't like the 4X. Took a day to have a Raven 3L I liked. Three days later I was in a Hunchback-4SP (with doubles added) All with a non founders, no Premium account. I do not see how having to buy the upgrade is such a punishment. Then again I have been gaming for the better part of 33 years, so maybe I have a broader background than some folks.

Goldfish!!! Oh that is a nice memory!

#899 Kdogg788

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:35 AM

I like the pizza flavored Goldfish.

-k

#900 Mercules

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

Interesting.

People comment about recommending actual ways to increase viability of SHS, as such are supposedly being ignored. Several people post such. What happens, all such ideas are ignored as people continue circular arguing for the sake of arguing.

Conclusion: people are more interested in complaining about the game then any attempts to actually improve it.


I was told my suggestions of fixing HEAT wouldn't do anything to help Singles have a purpose. I guess I stopped trying. ;)





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