1107 replies to this topic

[Shumabot]

Quote

I actually like the LBXAC10. It works well on my Dragon. It's just a very situational weapon and not good at everything. I personally use it to seat lights, or on snapped shots while moving fast. Could it use work? Maybe. But I find it very useful right now on my Dragon.

If you're not joking your elo bracket has probably drilled through the bottom of the barrel into some sort of mole person reverse underhive of guitar hero controllers and people who forgot to turn on their 90's crt monitor.

Quote

And maybe he is ignoring your statement because he's heard it unchanged 6 times and still can't agree with it? To be honest, I'm kinda agreeing with him that it isn't that big of a deal to have it as an upgrade. To be honest, yes DHS are very helpful to most every build, but I can play most mechs without. Actually, I normally play a new mech with very few changes. Played that AC20 Jagermech with SHS for some time before I could get DHS in it. Yes, DHS made it better, but I could easily play it with SHS without too much trouble. Endo gave more to the build than DHS, as endo game me weight for ammo.

If he's just ignoring the answer why the hell has he asked me the same question like 9 times? No, I think it's because he's a troll.

Quote

It isn't that we disagree with the effectiveness of DHS, it just that SHS can be used to good effect as well. And I'm not opposed to the "tax" of the upgrade. upgrade It is an upgrade. If you want to look at it a different way, most every game starts new players with the worst and you have to earn your way up. You also forget about ELOs intended effect, which will have more people who don't have tricked out mechs fighting people in trials or other non-tricked out mechs. The better you run with a mech,normally the better your mech, which means normally the better your ELO. Thus, this "tax" driving people away shouldn't be as big an issue as you think, as they will be fighting other people in the same boat. It's about as good a reason for removing the cost (or SHS) as SHS are as a crit buffer.

It doesn't matter if it's not "as big as I think" (though it is, and you people are wrong). What matters is that it exists at all and that this game can't recruit new players. I'm debating with LITERALLY NOTHING BUT GOLDS for a reason. It's because you would play this game if they shut the servers off, just constantly refreshing the launcher and pretending it's what it would be like to have your mechs systems suffer interference. New players don't play this game because systems you think are "ok" are absolute trash that is destroying this game. Your opinion doesn't matter because your opinion can't change regardless of circumstances.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kdogg788, on 28 March 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

People still play Dungeons & Dragons and Tabletop Battletech? What is this 1987?

In a semi-related note, what do you think are the chances they will actually make any changes? They haven't moved this thread to the so-called "Hot Topic" board, and it hasn't gotten any attention or play from anyone from PGI, with the tiny exception of a "You boys play nice..." post from one of the board mods. I just have a weird feeling that no matter what we say or do in this thread, there aren't going to be any real changes made.

-k

Technically starting about 4-5 years ago they started playing Dungeons & dragons again. Since they dropped "Advanced" from the name with fourth edition. And a new edition is set to be published in the near future. For the last few years AD&D has been carrying on as Pathfinder. But that is not what Shuma wants to acknowledge.

Man you don't understand what I am saying at a little like you are from Venus and me Mars!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 March 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Kdogg788]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Technically starting about 4-5 years ago they started playing Dungeons & dragons again. Since they dropped "Advanced" from the name with fourth edition. And a new edition is set to be published in the near future. For the last few years AD&D has been carrying on as Pathfinder. But that is not what Shuma wants to acknowledge.

Man you don't understand what I am saying at a little like you are from Venus and me Mars!

I see what you did there, but you have to admit the population actually playing those games is nowhere near their heyday in the 80s, back when computers weren't capable of rendering games like they do now. I had a 4 color CGA monitor originally. MPBT on AOL looks like *** compared to this game, but we still played and enjoyed it. Present day, right now it is extremely difficult to get anything going with table top games. They're an extremely small niche market.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 28 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I see what you did there, but you have to admit the population actually playing those games is nowhere near their heyday in the 80s, back when computers weren't capable of rendering games like they do now. I had a 4 color CGA monitor originally. MPBT on AOL looks like *** compared to this game, but we still played and enjoyed it. Present day, right now it is extremely difficult to get anything going with table top games. They're an extremely small niche market.

-k

Tabletop, Card, and pen and paper RPG games are far larger now than 30 years ago. The playerbase of 40k+Warmachine alone eclipses the entire minis playerbase in the 90s, magic is currently a juggernaut that is far larger than it's previous zenith in the late 90s, and RPG book and Digital sales are at an all time high in volume. That BT stagnates in this environment of renewed interest and strength is very meaningful.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tesunie, you get it. There are many different people here who play this game for different reasons. Each of us find a different Nich Mech and weapon combo and can make it work for us. Insulting a player for the choice of Platform to fight from is the Elitist perspective. I have seen a player in a hunchback-4G clean house equipped with 2-3 Mediums and 3 MGs in closed Beta(no Elo, and class matching only). His builds have been insulted and snickered at all the while racking up kill after kill (K/D ratio around 15.0).

All we need to do is first fix the cycle time on sinks and Doubles, see if that is enough then move in whichever direction it takes to make heat feel right.

@KDogg, I was just future prospecting. And basing my assumption on one line of text from a novel that was quoted here. I hope I am wrong, but I am preparing for the coming storm. The Clans are supposed to be OP, I wanna be ready!

[Bishop Steiner]

@Tesunie

Basically think of it as having a higher redline. You can wind it up higher, but you also have more catastrophic failures when they occur. Mostly to the point though, is as I said, I was throwing out ideas, and that one was and is not fully formed. I feel there is something there, but it needs a tweak somewhere to click. As opposed to the other people on here who think their half formed ideas are Holy Writ, conceived in perfection and immutable.

I a tually prefer the other two ideas I floated, tbh anyhow.

@Joseph Mallon, sadly for all Shumabots infallible knowledge, the fact that it wasn't lack of fanbaze, bit poor management, and expensive legal battles that killedbBtech off several times. FASA also ran the hugely popular and successful Shhadowrun franchise, yet managed to belly up.

The perfect storm of o line gaming shift pretty well just cemented it.
But a dead game doesn't produce 3 complete editions of game merchandise, 7 videogame titles, over 100 novels, and get night by multiple companies, and never allowed to die. Or its own cartoon, or a miniature company that's main revenue to this day is selling pewter minis for that dead game.

But since facts and logic Haas had precious little space in this topic yet, why should it start now?

[Shumabot]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

@Tesunie

Basically think of it as having a higher redline.  You can wind it up higher, but you also have more catastrophic failures when they occur.  Mostly to the point though, is as I said, I was throwing out ideas, and that one was and is not fully formed.  I feel there is something there, but it needs a tweak somewhere to click.  As opposed to the other people on here who think their half formed ideas are Holy Writ, conceived in perfection and immutable.

I a tually prefer the other two ideas I floated, tbh anyhow.

@Joseph Mallon, sadly for all Shumabots infallible knowledge, the fact that it wasn't lack of fanbaze, bit poor management, and expensive legal battles that killedbBtech off several times.  FASA also ran the hugely popular and successful Shhadowrun franchise, yet managed to belly up.

The perfect storm of o line gaming shift pretty well just cemented it.
But a dead game doesn't produce 3 complete editions of game merchandise, 7 videogame titles, over 100 novels, and get night by multiple companies, and never allowed to die.  Or its own cartoon, or a miniature company that's main revenue to this day is selling pewter minis for that dead game.

But since facts and logic Haas had precious little space in this topic yet, why should it start now?

The heyday of battletech was literally 20 years ago. Two decades. That cartoon was in 1994. You can't act like something relevant two decades ago is relevant now just because you want it to be. The last mechwarrior game was 11 years ago, the last mech commander was 12, the last model release for BT was 6 years ago and that was just a re-release. These franchises aren't thriving, they aren't even living. MW:O is the closest thing BT has had to mass market access in 11 years, and the last time BT was relevant the Wu Tang Clan had just released CREAM.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kdogg788, on 28 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

I see what you did there, but you have to admit the population actually playing those games is nowhere near their heyday in the 80s, back when computers weren't capable of rendering games like they do now. I had a 4 color CGA monitor originally. MPBT on AOL looks like *** compared to this game, but we still played and enjoyed it. Present day, right now it is extremely difficult to get anything going with table top games. They're an extremely small niche market.

-k

Absolutely correct, and people don't play board games nearly as much either (I have scrabble for my DS somewhere!). I'll see your 4 color and raise you the All in one Apple computer (B&W) my brother first played Pools of Radiance on... or was it Lair of the Spider Queen?

Why play a TT game when you can just go on line and play from your bedroom. My daughter and her friends used to get together and play Boarderlands or some western shooter and I found it funny they were playing a game together yet alone!?!

Now here I am a member of a gaming group, that I have never met yet enjoy deeply. MechWarrior is also a niche market. Always has been.

Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Tabletop, Card, and pen and paper RPG games are far larger now than 30 years ago. The playerbase of 40k+Warmachine alone eclipses the entire minis playerbase in the 90s, magic is currently a juggernaut that is far larger than it's previous zenith in the late 90s, and RPG book and Digital sales are at an all time high in volume. That BT stagnates in this environment of renewed interest and strength is very meaningful.

Gimme a link to your data please. I would like to read this information for myself.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

The heyday of battletech was literally 20 years ago. Two decades. That cartoon was in 1994. You can't act like something relevant two decades ago is relevant now just because you want it to be. The last mechwarrior game was 11 years ago, the last mech commander was 12, the last model release for BT was 6 years ago and that was just a re-release. These franchises aren't thriving, they aren't even living. MW:O is the closest thing BT has had to mass market access in 11 years, and the last time BT was relevant the Wu Tang Clan had just released CREAM.

Dead and dying game that has won awards at Origins in the last 2-3 years. Dead games don't win awards...

@Bishop
ShadowRun won best Gaming accessory for The ShadowRunners Toolkit in 2011. And Spells and Chrome won in 2010.

Not dead but in the shadows. An MMO is planned also!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 March 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Shumabot]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Absolutely correct, and people don't play board games nearly as much either (I have scrabble for my DS somewhere!). I'll see your 4 color and raise you the All in one Apple computer (B&W) my brother first played Pools of Radiance on... or was it Lair of the Spider Queen?

Why play a TT game when you can just go on line and play from your bedroom. My daughter and her friends used to get together and play Boarderlands or some western shooter and I found it funny they were playing a game together yet alone!?!

Now here I am a member of a gaming group, that I have never met yet enjoy deeply. MechWarrior is also a niche market. Always has been.


Gimme a link to your data please. I would like to read this information for myself.

http://seekingalpha....-the-year-ahead

I can't find anything pertaining to a statistical review of yoy sales of pen and paper RPGs, and those numbers are inherently damaged by the prevalence of piracy in the sector. With DND 4th the overall size of the market grew considerably for a time, but those numbers aren't really collected into a single source.

The same can be said for the tabletop industry, 40ks playerbase is falling though they're sustaining increased revenues through price increases. Warmachines flagship game (but half of their dual release) overcame WHFB a few years ago and privateers sales revenue has increased several fold in the past 5 years.
http://www.icv2.com/...news/24225.html

In real money terms either of those two businesses are dramatically larger than BT was at its peak (one of them was larger than BT WHEN BT was at its peak). This doesn't mean much to the current analogy though, except insofar as both companies are still growing and one of them is growing extremely quickly.

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Dead and dying game that has won awards at Origins in the last 2-3 years. Dead games don't win awards...

They do when they're the only thing in the category and they hand out an award to every single showing anyway. Five companies won the same award BT did at last years. That's a participation award, Origins hasn't been relevant in years (functionally replaced by GenCon and PAX). They gave an award to the Nuts! card game too. That sure is a barnstormer. Probably outsells BT.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Tesunie]

Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

If you're not joking your elo bracket has probably drilled through the bottom of the barrel into some sort of mole person reverse underhive of guitar hero controllers and people who forgot to turn on their 90's crt monitor.

No. I'm not joking. It isn't the most "optimized" weapon in the game for "spreadsheet warrior", but in my Dragon it works very well. Especially with the wonky arm convergence issues that mech suffers from. I'm very good with this mech and have done very well in matches. I use that 1 ton saved for an extra ton of ammo, as I use to run out. It's like I also have 2 LRM5s on it, using the ton saved by having the LRM5s instead of a 10 for more ammo. I have an XL engine in it for speed, and DHS. I can engage an enemy at any range, range and support my team by hunting lights, flanking, scouting, etc. The LBXAC10 works well when you and your target are moving fast, and can still be concentrated enough to hit a single location if you are close enough. I'd rather do some damage with a nick, than no damage with a near miss. Maybe once HSR gets in for ballistics I might put an AC10 back in...

And once more the elitist "ELO bracket" response. Want my win/lose k/d too? Is my opinion only as good as my stats? Too full of yourself to listen to a common person? And I was just starting to have you change my opinion of you, not any more, elitist scum. Hope I kill you on the battlefield...

Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if it's not "as big as I think" (though it is, and you people are wrong). What matters is that it exists at all and that this game can't recruit new players. I'm debating with LITERALLY NOTHING BUT GOLDS for a reason. It's because you would play this game if they shut the servers off, just constantly refreshing the launcher and pretending it's what it would be like to have your mechs systems suffer interference. New players don't play this game because systems you think are "ok" are absolute trash that is destroying this game. Your opinion doesn't matter because your opinion can't change regardless of circumstances.

Because you are right and everyone is wrong... so I should spend c-bills on unneeded upgrade that barely improves my build? If I could challenge you, I would. My Stalker vs anything you wish. Bring in that DDC with ECM so you can cut out my LRMs. Bring in the brawling weapons. Grab that raven 3l. Use that cover. I wouldn't care. Am I saying I will win? No. But I'll cause a lot of damage on the way out if I don't. I hope my damage output doesn't surprise you too much.

If you are arguing with me, where's my gold tag? And if I have a gold tag, where is my founders Jenner to match?

You wonder why people treat you like a troll? Ignore you? Take a guess. And here I thought I wad being rather civil.

I'm wrong because I don't want to pay for USLESS DHS in my dual gauss mech? I should get the upgrades just because I MIGHT need them later? It will improve my "already so high I'll never overheat" heat efficiency? For what reason? Because it over optimizes the build into oblivion? Here's a great heat optimized build, DHS, largest standard engine, and as many DHS as you can fit. Don't bother with weapons as that decreases you heat efficiency. It'll never overheat. So great. You'll be a killer in the mech. Not even volcano strength flamers could make you heat budge.

You want to talk about being right or wrong? I thought this was a debate to discuss ways to improve heat sinks to make them more balanced? With a "hyperbole" title (and first post/page) to attract attention? Not a "everyone is wrong but me and anyone who agrees with me" topic?

And I didn't know having only one mech with SHS still was a crime. I didn't know using an LBXAC10 was such a horrible offence. Shall I post every build I have that's been ridiculed but works very well for me? Then you can tell me how horrible my who mech bay is, give me whole new optimized stupid builds that I won't like, and tell me to quit the game.

Why don't you take one of your own sarcastic awards and leave this thread like how you've told other people? You are no longer contributing to the thread, even though I am trying to. Have a solution? Then I debate. Say you are the only person right? Why are bothering to post then? At that point, you are the troll and ignorant one you've been getting tired of arguing with.

Want to try this again? I'm willing to ignore this slight if you are willing to hear other people's ideas and provide feedback, ideas and discussions instead of judgement and belittlement. So far, I've heard only a few ideas from you that I already gave feed back with problems I see with the idea and things I liked about the ideas, but no change or consideration to anything said.

[Joseph Mallan]

So how do you think halving the venting time would help hinder Heat sinks Tesunie?

Also the few times I tested LB-X, I liked em. I prefer solid slugs more, but the LB-X performed well enough (I just want that darn solid slug for it and I will be very happy!

@Shumabot, Thanks for the links!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 March 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Tesunie]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

@Tesunie

Basically think of it as having a higher redline. You can wind it up higher, but you also have more catastrophic failures when they occur. Mostly to the point though, is as I said, I was throwing out ideas, and that one was and is not fully formed. I feel there is something there, but it needs a tweak somewhere to click. As opposed to the other people on here who think their half formed ideas are Holy Writ, conceived in perfection and immutable.

I a tually prefer the other two ideas I floated, tbh anyhow.

@Joseph Mallon, sadly for all Shumabots infallible knowledge, the fact that it wasn't lack of fanbaze, bit poor management, and expensive legal battles that killedbBtech off several times. FASA also ran the hugely popular and successful Shhadowrun franchise, yet managed to belly up.

The perfect storm of o line gaming shift pretty well just cemented it.
But a dead game doesn't produce 3 complete editions of game merchandise, 7 videogame titles, over 100 novels, and get night by multiple companies, and never allowed to die. Or its own cartoon, or a miniature company that's main revenue to this day is selling pewter minis for that dead game.

But since facts and logic Haas had precious little space in this topic yet, why should it start now?

I do like the idea behind this, and I can see you would need to explain and fine tune some more of the mechanics of it. You are basically trying to make DHS better by heat cap not cooling (an interesting take), and have it so if you do push too far with DHS you'll be in more trouble. Larger rewards but with larger risks as well. I do like the concept here, I just can't see how it could be explained right now. Maybe they would have their meter go up to 110-120% before you shut down? Then you have to cool back down to 100% before starting up, or you cause damage to yourself? Would even kinda match the clan do or die approach to a fight. A "don't hold back at any cost" concept.

[MustrumRidcully]

The Gold Tag is, I think, becoming something transcendant - you don't actually need to have a Gold Tag to be a Gold Tagger, nor does having a Gold Tag mean you're a Gold Tagger.
One could obviously argue that the name is then nonsense, but it still seems to describe something that should have a name...

Regarding Battletech's success or lack of success - I have the feeling a big thing holding Battletech down is the old ruleset.

I played it only twice with real dice, and my god holy ******** **** how much do you have to roll for just to make a frigging missile attack!
When I played Megamek, all that was abstracted away for me, making it a bit easier to andle. But even then, the turns go slow, and there is a strong randomness to the game - a random crit can take out your best mech on the field, invalidating any tactical considerations you made earlier.

I suppose this is a topic for another thread, but I believe these are all factors making table top unattractive as a table top game. It's not just complex, it's complicated, and still doesn't really allow good tactical approaches thanks to swingy game mechanics.

Battletech needs a 2nd (or is it 3rd? 4th? How do you count this will Battletech) Edition more than D&D needs a 5th Edition.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 March 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

http://seekingalpha....-the-year-ahead

I can't find anything pertaining to a statistical review of yoy sales of pen and paper RPGs, and those numbers are inherently damaged by the prevalence of piracy in the sector. With DND 4th the overall size of the market grew considerably for a time, but those numbers aren't really collected into a single source.

Fair enough.

Quote

The same can be said for the tabletop industry, 40ks playerbase is falling though they're sustaining increased revenues through price increases. Warmachines flagship game (but half of their dual release) overcame WHFB a few years ago and privateers sales revenue has increased several fold in the past 5 years.

http://www.icv2.com/...news/24225.html

Warhammer and 40K were always bigger than We were *shrug* Not everyone loves stompy robots!

Quote

In real money terms either of those two businesses are dramatically larger than BT was at its peak (one of them was larger than BT WHEN BT was at its peak). This doesn't mean much to the current analogy though, except insofar as both companies are still growing and one of them is growing extremely quickly.

Does that make them better? CBT is still alive, not huge but alive, as others have said bad advertising, Harmony Gold, and a few other wonky business decisions has kept the game small. But sometimes small is just the right size.

Quote

They do when they're the only thing in the category and they hand out an award to every single showing anyway. Five companies won the same award BT did at last years. That's a participation award, Origins hasn't been relevant in years (functionally replaced by GenCon and PAX). They gave an award to the Nuts! card game too. That sure is a barnstormer. Probably outsells BT.

Boy aren't you just a Lil Ray of Sunshine. Not necessarily wrong mind you, but do you take pride in p*ssing in everyone's Wheaties???

[Cybercobra]

some of my mechs still use single heatsinks. not becouse i dont have the money for the upgrade. but becouse i have alot of spare tonnage on them and 3 single heatsinks is way better than 1 double heatsink.

single heatsinks may seem irralevant. but they take up less space. and if you have alot of extra tonnage that extra space is more important than the extra tonnage.

[John Norad]

Wow, this whole debate is kinda sad. From a game-design perspective.

How about proper balance instead of simply getting rid of something?

You could rework the whole heat system to make single heat sinks actually work.
You could factor the type of heatsink into a Combat/Battle value calculation.
You could make it an economic/repair consideration.

At least for me, getting rid of single heat sinks would mean to give up on a good and balanced game.

[Tesunie]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Tesunie, you get it. There are many different people here who play this game for different reasons. Each of us find a different Nich Mech and weapon combo and can make it work for us. Insulting a player for the choice of Platform to fight from is the Elitist perspective. I have seen a player in a hunchback-4G clean house equipped with 2-3 Mediums and 3 MGs in closed Beta(no Elo, and class matching only). His builds have been insulted and snickered at all the while racking up kill after kill (K/D ratio around 15.0).

All we need to do is first fix the cycle time on sinks and Doubles, see if that is enough then move in whichever direction it takes to make heat feel right.

@KDogg, I was just future prospecting. And basing my assumption on one line of text from a novel that was quoted here. I hope I am wrong, but I am preparing for the coming storm. The Clans are supposed to be OP, I wanna be ready!

A flavor for every person. Much like ice cream, or hamburgers. I like vanilla ice cream and hamburgers with ketchup only or a slice of cheese only. You might like apricot ice cream and hamburgers with mayo, peanut butter and relish. You like what you like, I like what I like.

Same goes for mechs. I'm very good with LRMs, but I don't boat them. (Actually, I've tried every weapon in the game and I like most of them.) I'm also very good with PPCs. You might prefer SRMs and lasers. To each their own.

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

So how do you think halving the venting time would help hinder Heat sinks Tesunie?

Also the few times I tested LB-X, I liked em. I prefer solid slugs more, but the LB-X performed well enough (I just want that darn solid slug for it and I will be very happy!

@Shumabot, Thanks for the links!

I like the idea, but I think this might (if you just make cooling across the board) make DHS not worth placing in any more. Don't know about you, but even with SHS I don't have to wait to long to cool. This would make it so that SHS are more effective overall. It would let my fairly cool running Stalker either be able to shoot twice as often (if you are literally meaning cooling in half the time frame), or need half the sinks to continue with its already not so heat prone attacks. DHS would still be more effective, but I can say my Jagermech with 2 AC20s would not have needed an upgrade to DHS if I cooled twice as fast.

If we had smaller heat caps with a faster venting time, then DHS would still be better than SHS, but it would improve the feeling if SHS at the same time. I think this wouldn't change the position of DHS being more efficient than SHS, thus more pushed for to optimize. However, it would have SHS be more viable than they are now, make the trial mechs feel better and have SHS be a more arguable point as far as cost to upgrade.

I might need to have more numbers, examples, or time to think on this (or just explain what I mean better). I'm not sure I'm being very clear right now and I haven't crunched and imaginary numbers yet to show.

(On a kindle for most of this conversation, so it's harder to just type responses.)

[Shumabot]

Quote

Does that make them better? CBT is still alive, not huge but alive, as others have said bad advertising, Harmony Gold, and a few other wonky business decisions has kept the game small. But sometimes small is just the right size.

Everyone loves big stompy robots, that's a basic human trait. The company making the heavy gear game is even named stompy bot. What killed CBT is truly pitiful models, rules that were complex without providing depth of gameplay, bad competitive balance (the game was meant as an RPG style supplement until they tried to tac BV onto everything and that didn't even come close to making it tourney worthy) and background/fluff that were just about the most 80s thing mankind has ever created. BT is small because it's not accessible and it's kinda dumb looking/sounding. MW:O as a beta probably already services a larger audience than the entire active current BT player base. The lawsuits and art theft didn't help BT much, but when the best things in your game were stolen you probably aren't a high watermark of quality in the first place. Current BT players love to blame harmony gold and fasa, but what killed BT was the fact that BT was the weakest competitor in a crowded field.

What games have stompy robots? 40k has them everywhere, warmachine is entirely based on them, Dust tactics is entirely based on them, they're everywhere in infinity, etc. Any sci fi property and many that aren't sci fi are either based on them or feature them heavily. Saying "not everyone likes stompy robots" is silly. You should be saying "not everyone likes things with the words clan diamond shark in them", or "not everyone likes their stompy robots to be bad looking box shaped humans with a tube arm".

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Dead and dying game that has won awards at Origins in the last 2-3 years. Dead games don't win awards...

@Bishop
ShadowRun won best Gaming accessory for The ShadowRunners Toolkit in 2011. And Spells and Chrome won in 2010.

Not dead but in the shadows. An MMO is planned also!

ShadowRun vgame kickstarter brought in a hella lot of money.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 28 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.