Bishop Steiner, on 27 March 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:
Eh, not exactly.
Leys use the TT scale just for simplicity.
In this example, the SHS mech could produce up to 30pts waste heat before automatic shutdown.
The DHS mech would be able to push up to 60 waste heat before shutdown, with I'll effects also starting much later.
But.... They both gent heat at the same rate, and the safe restart parameter is under 30pts waste heat, so restart once shutdown could take considerably longer. And since one has so much more waste heat, attempts to override would have potentially greater chance of catastrophic failure like ammo explosion, if one keeps overriding shutdown.
Hence a mech that was based around dps, like a Dakkaphract, would likely run DHS, since it allows him to dakka nonstop longer, and hopefully be done before he shuts down, and can vent.
An Alpha build might actually be better served with singles, because while the initial threshold is lower, the shutdown/restart period is considerably shorter, and the results of a failure much less likely to destroy the mech, if one keeps hitting override. One might get a nbinitial alpha or two less, which would actually be good for game balance, but over the course of a battle probably actually get off a similar amount as they could with dhs, but be shutdown and helpless for a lot less time.
Question, why would the "danger" heat levels be so high for DHS? You where cooling off fine at 80% heat, so why if you shut down by overheating would you need to wait till you hit 50% before restarting safely?
I do understand what you are saying, and I do like the concept, I just don't see the benefit or penalty to this system. You would actually have less cooling by running out of crits and having less DHS overall over SHS, and you might have a slight higher cap (unless you have the cap based on sink type and not number of sinks).
Protection, on 28 March 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5dd8592e121f132
Extra ton of ammo and way more heat efficient. And yes this thing can and does overheat.
You're bad at mechbuilds, you have repeatedly failed to read the thread or understand the arguments.
Also, you did well in a pug game - great. This has nothing - at all - to do with the argument. The argument is about mech builds and trying to give players meaningful choices rather than fake one dimensional choices.
He's just looking at it and saying he doesn't think that build would feel right, or that the bonus for DHS isn't as large of a bonus as the cost. I can understand his statement. Yes, you upgrade has better paper stats, and is better at spreadsheet warrior, but does it feel good? Is it fun to play? Does it provide a challenge?
This is like arguing that the AC20 Jagermech is a great mech. However, as much fun as it can be to blow someone to pieces fast, I'm not enjoying it as much as other builds. It's just not as challenging as some other customs and it isn't as balanced either. Is it a great mech? Heck, I've done a lot of damage and killing in that mech. Got 5 kills and 3 assists with it one match. But something doesn't feel right about it. The fun just isn't there.
Atheus, on 28 March 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:
Let's see, there are 2 STK-4N's which I can guarantee are trial mechs, if not they are owned by idiots (who buys a 4N?), also a DRG-1C which may also be a trial (though probably not since he did more damage than the bottom 5 on his team combined), your team has 2 RVN-4X's which I can guarantee are not apex predators of MWO. Lastly, you're the only founder in the match. Judging by this, you may be in the middle of the ELO range but most likely well below, because I can guarantee you trials do not move up the ELO brackets once they start playing.
Am I impressed that you can win by capping in a match filled with 16 newbies, for some reason leaving their 1 remaining trial stalker alive at the end of the match? No, not even a little bit. In fact you've pretty much confirmed what I already suspected about you. Congrats on scoring 689 damage against a bunch of newbies, though. Thanks for coming in here and sharing. DHS are still substantially better than SHS 100% of the time, though. The fact that you think this match result helps your case, or is even moderately relevant to this debate indicates you should really stop trying to contribute to the debate.
I own a Stalker 4N though... I have 4 PPCs in it... I like my 4N... (though I wished it's twist would be as good as the 3F, but I owned it for masters and really ended up liking it.)
Also, only one person was left alive on the enemy team, I'd have to say it seemed like a well fought match. And could his ELO just be low with that weight class (if it is low, if it even matters)? Is that even a problem? Personally, I like being neutral ELO. It helps me to try and give advice to newer players, players such as how to lock and fire LRMs, minimum range on LRMs and PPCs, etc. For me, I've just been leveling mechs up since ELO came out. You would be amazed how many times one can die in an unmodified Dragon (besides weapons) till I get it working right for me. A lot of playing around with different builds...
Shumabot, on 28 March 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:
That outcry came from ignorant golds who whined about anything that didn't mimick TT. This forum is idiotic, well and truly. This community wants a braindead playerless game. I've said a dozen times that I don't respect this communities ability to reason in a basic sense, and I still don't. They don't have that ability, nor can they remember more than five minutes into their past. A small subset of this forum? This forum is majority founders, people willing to spend hundreds on thin air and a dream. These people are now defending gold flush, airstrikes, and in the last week I've seen polls saying that BAP is a bigger issue than command console or dubs and that the LBXAC10 is just fine. This forum is fundamentally worthless and the games designers use reddit because they know that.
Case in point. Ol' joe here has the memory of a goldfish and just wants to keep his newbie hazing pointless upgrade system. He can't remember the six times (literally six *********) i've told you all what is wrong with that system and what I believe. You are all either master clase ruseman trolls or you're ex boxers who are severely punchy going into your 60s. Either way, ugh.
I actually like the LBXAC10. It works well on my Dragon. It's just a very situational weapon and not good at everything. I personally use it to seat lights, or on snapped shots while moving fast. Could it use work? Maybe. But I find it very useful right now on my Dragon.
And maybe he is ignoring your statement because he's heard it unchanged 6 times and still can't agree with it? To be honest, I'm kinda agreeing with him that it isn't that big of a deal to have it as an upgrade. To be honest, yes DHS are very helpful to most every build, but I can play most mechs without. Actually, I normally play a new mech with very few changes. Played that AC20 Jagermech with SHS for some time before I could get DHS in it. Yes, DHS made it better, but I could easily play it with SHS without too much trouble. Endo gave more to the build than DHS, as endo game me weight for ammo.
It isn't that we disagree with the effectiveness of DHS, it just that SHS can be used to good effect as well. And I'm not opposed to the "tax" of the upgrade. upgrade It is an upgrade. If you want to look at it a different way, most every game starts new players with the worst and you have to earn your way up. You also forget about ELOs intended effect, which will have more people who don't have tricked out mechs fighting people in trials or other non-tricked out mechs. The better you run with a mech,normally the better your mech, which means normally the better your ELO. Thus, this "tax" driving people away shouldn't be as big an issue as you think, as they will be fighting other people in the same boat. It's about as good a reason for removing the cost (or SHS) as SHS are as a crit buffer.
Mercules, on 28 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:
I was told my suggestions of fixing HEAT wouldn't do anything to help Singles have a purpose. I guess I stopped trying.
Have I heard them yet? Restate a summed version? I have no problem letting you know how I feel about it. There have been a lot of good ideas on how to make the sinks different, once we moved past removing them that is...
Atheus, on 28 March 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:
So, a few questions come to mind.
1: With your 6+ months of play experience under your belt, do you think your ELO went up or down while you were playing in trial mechs? In other words, were you consistently in the top 3 for your team?
2: Would you be impressed with a game that puts you in a stock
Ford Mustang in a road race against a
Maclaren P1 with a straight face?
3: You said you had DHS on your mechs within 2 hours of purchase... but how long after you created the account? What if you were actually new to the game, and were trying to decide within say, 4 hours of gameplay whether or not the game was actually any good, or fun to play?
4: You immediately chose the Raven for your first 3 set of chassis, but you went for the 3L variant last
?
5: Can you build a light or medium chassis with 3+ medium or 2+ large lasers with SHS which performs >70% as well as one with DHS? Keep in mind speed counts.
6: You seriously think Shumabot's primary issue is the price of the upgrade, rather than say, anything discussed in this thread aside from trying to educate the uninformed and chase off the trolls? Can you think of any other issues with SHS/DHS People have brought up? It's an open book test here so I'm hoping for the best.
- what does ELO have to do with this? It's about fun. Isn't it? Oh, and ELO wasn't scoring for 6+ months...
- this game isn't doing that. We don't have cars.
anyway, with ELO, this shouldn't really be happening anymore. People should be gathered now by skill level and tech level for the most part.
- it didn't take me long to get and customize my first mech when I started. And that was back when R&R was in the game. With the cadet bonus added in, they should be able to get a fully tricked out ride in a couple hours, if not a couple matches...
- why not the Raven first? It's a very nice looking mech. Popular, even among non-fans. It was also the first ride my wingman went with. Not to mention if a newbie read even a small portion of the forums, they would hear how "tough" that mech is, if not find a bunch of builds plastered all over for the mech.
- that's not what us SHS people are saying. I ran my first mech as a Hunchback with 5 med lasers and 2 LRM5s, and SHS for a long while. Did I overheat? Yes. Did I change to DHS eventually? Yes. But was it unplayable with SHS? I earned enough c-bills to upgrade the mech and buy a cicada, while having R&R on too. It is possible, and wad enough fun that I regretted selling my Hunchback and rebought it, then mastered it.
- don't know about other people, but I'm getting tired of having any build I post, DHS or not, be called terribad and trash. A mech can be non-optimized and still work efficiently. And none of us are saying DHS won't improve it at all, just if it's worth the c-bills to do so, especially when some of us might be trying to save for 2 more Jagermechs, and 2 more Centurions too.
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