1107 replies to this topic

[Josef Nader]

The only reason you'd keep singles on a build (that isn't one of the very limited edge cases like the XL/Endo/Ferro lights with smaller than 250 engine sizes) is if you couldn't afford to up them to doubles so you are making due.

Stock mechs "get the job done" with singles, but every single one of them (and I mean every single one) are greatly improved with the addition of doubles.

[Bishop Steiner]

Still trying to figure what advantage DHS provide for my 280XL Gaussapult. I only use 10 SHS, so they won'tt give me back weight for ammo and armor (armor is maxed and only ever ran out of ammo 3-4 times anyhow). I don't run mediums, so no heat from that, and in fact it can't overheat firing nonstop in the caldera. this mech rocks a nearly 4/1 K/Dr for me, so doesn't seem to be handicapping me. So I gain no weight savings, and can'tt overheat anyhow..... So just what bonus optimalization do I get on it for my 1.5 million?

[Josef Nader]

The only reason you don't have doubles on that mech is because you don't want to be out 1.5 mil. There is literally no other reason (aside from light mechs with XL/Endo/Ferro/smaller than 250 engine fringe cases etc.) to run singles.

[Protection]

qki, on 28 March 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Again - not really. The shs builds are not optimized, but neither are they inefficient (at least the ones I have in mind). The "optimal" DHS builds are, in this case, actually oversinked.

You can run that 'phract I posted earlier with singles, and never care to upgrade. On paper, DHS version looks better in every way. In practice, for the 3 times I took it out since the stat tracking update, 450 damage adds up to 6 kills - about 60-80 damage per kill, but that's assuming good aim and putting round after round, after laser beam in the CT.

In practice - that thing never overheats, nor runs out of ammo (7 tons is plenty) - a DHS upgrade offers minimal gain, since I already have more dissipation, than I need, and getting even more dissipation does very little to increase performance.


Point is - tactics are more important than actual mech loadout. Even if you don't have the dissipation of a DHS version, a simple gameplay decision to boom and zoom can more than make up for it (especially in case of light mechs), proving that you can do just fine with SHS.


But when is all this relevant? Most likely when you buy a mech only to level up your main variant, and sell it afterwards (not everyone has 46 mechbays available). In this case, you may be loathe to spend another 1.5 mil on a mech you're about to sell, and effectively lose 750k.

Some people in this thread, claim (falsely) that every mech MUST run DHS, and anything with SHS is not even remotely worth playing. That is a fallacy. The system doesn't need rebalancing. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to spend another 1500000 c-bills on double heatsinks, you can make a loadout using single heatsinks, and do just fine. Ultimately, you will probably want to upgrade (with very few exceptions, like the aforementioned mechs that really don't care for DHS), and that's fine.

SHS are not a death sentence, nor a "must have right now" upgrade to install first thing after buying a mech.


TL;DR

You'll most likely want DHS anyway, but mechs with singles are not as worthless as some people make them out to be, and you can still get results without DHS - ergo DHS are a meaningful upgrade, and not a "sales tax" on something that must be installed on every mech before you start playing with it, or you stand no chance of winning.

And again -- no one has said that a mech MUST run DHS, but we've repeatedly said and repeatedly been correct in saying that a mech with DHS will be better than a mech without DHS.

Can you do still well in a mech with SHS? Sure. But that isn't the point.

But with DHS, you can do everything you did in that same mech with SHS, except you can also be more heat efficient on top of that. If you dont want to make use of the extra heat efficiency, that's fine - you can still play the mech in the exact same way as you would with SHS without anything being at all different - except that you have more heat capacity to work with if you so chose to shoot more often (as well as, often, more armour, ammo, or larger engines).
Saying "But I didn't need DHS for my mech, I got by okay with SHS," is great, you did fine without minimaxing your gear. That is not the problem. The problem is that wanting to play with less optimized equipment is a poor excuse for the current role of single heatsinks in the game, and shoddy game design in general. It's restrictive to player decision making, it's limiting to variety, and it serves little purpose other than to have one more barriers for new players to achieve equal footing, and it's a waste of an item that might otherwise have an interesting purpose - even in high level or competitive play (and no, there are zero competitive league designs using Single Heatsinks). We want a more interesting and engaging system, and a purpose for SHS beyond wanting to run a mech that is either less optimized or less expensive.

[qki]

Josef Nader, on 28 March 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

The only reason you'd keep singles on a build (that isn't one of the very limited edge cases like the XL/Endo/Ferro lights with smaller than 250 engine sizes) is if you couldn't afford to up them to doubles so you are making due.

Stock mechs "get the job done" with singles, but every single one of them (and I mean every single one) are greatly improved with the addition of doubles.

There is another reason - it's called I don't care for DHS on this build.

If you have a Muromets, and the credits to spare, run a 3xUAC5 build with 12 singles, 3 MLs and 7 tons of ammo. In an actual game, where you are shooting at targets, and not testing grounds "hold down the trigger till it overheats".

Then upgrade to DHS, and try it again - see if you notice a vast improvement.
I can tell you from personal experience - I never once got a heat warning on that thing, and really couldn't care less if it's running single, or double heatsinks.

You can't seem to get past the "but it's an upgrade" mentality. Yes - you are right - it's an upgrade. Only in some cases, it's an irrelevant upgrade - that's the point we've been trying to get across - some loadouts (namely gauss and ac5/uac5 heavy ones) you can run with single heatsinks, and never feel the need to upgrade. Just because it says "better" on paper doesn't mean a thing.

And I seem to recall that the argument ws along the lines of "anything with singles is not ever remotely worth playing, so having them as an upgrade is just an extra click that all players will need to do"

That's clearly not the case, and if it isn't the case of "bring a mech with DHS or you have no chance to do anything", then having a straight up upgrade is actually good. You clicky click, and now your mech has double heatsinks. You can then drop some, and take more ammo, or armour, or a bigger gun. Congratulations - you've just optimized your design - wasn't it fun?

That's the thing - people enjoy upgrades. We know buying singles is a more efficient way of getting the cards you need for your deck, and wizards of the coast is still making a crapton of money on the premise that boosters are fun.

Edited by qki, 28 March 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Protection]

If you haven't got a heat warning in a 3xUAC/5 Ilya, you are very bad at DPSing.

[PropagandaWar]

Reading bits and pieces of this. After clan tech comes out SHS will be even more scarce. But why take out what's already in place? Also the mechs that are being rolled out were primarliy equipped with SHS. After removing R&R tricking out our mechs and consumables is all we have left really in form of money concerns, between the lapses of mechs we may want to purchase. I always add a extra 2 mill to the cost and run with it.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 28 March 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[qki]

Protection, on 28 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

If you haven't got a heat warning in a 3xUAC/5 Ilya, you are very bad at DPSing.

or good at aiming / boom&zoom

[Augustus Martelus]

Kdogg788, on 28 March 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

The engine sinks are where the largest difference comes, not the number of slots. Depending on how large your engine is you can get 10 + how ever many extras it can fit.

Not sure I'm right on this, but last time I heard, they said something about the water cooling mechanic not working properly for sinks in the legs.

-k

Well one day it will be....Many primordial stuff are still missing

[Bishop Steiner]

no. The only reason I don't have dhs on there is they literally provide no advantage for the build. If they did, I'd toss em on, as most of my other mechs, including my other K2 have them.

[Josef Nader]

Again, the build doesn't suffer for not having DHS, but there's no reason to not have them on there. The build isn't better off with SHS, it just doesn't make a difference either way.

There's an enormous difference between those two things. You just haven't upgraded out of useless equipment because there is literally no need to. The singles aren't being useless any less than doubles would be useless on that build. The point is that any mech that -needs- a heatsink in it would be better served by double heat sinks.

[Shumabot]

qki, on 28 March 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

There is another reason - it's called I don't care for DHS on this build.

If you have a Muromets, and the credits to spare, run a 3xUAC5 build with 12 singles, 3 MLs and 7 tons of ammo. In an actual game, where you are shooting at targets, and not testing grounds "hold down the trigger till it overheats".

Then upgrade to DHS, and try it again - see if you notice a vast improvement.
I can tell you from personal experience - I never once got a heat warning on that thing, and really couldn't care less if it's running single, or double heatsinks.

You can't seem to get past the "but it's an upgrade" mentality. Yes - you are right - it's an upgrade. Only in some cases, it's an irrelevant upgrade - that's the point we've been trying to get across - some loadouts (namely gauss and ac5/uac5 heavy ones) you can run with single heatsinks, and never feel the need to upgrade. Just because it says "better" on paper doesn't mean a thing.

And I seem to recall that the argument ws along the lines of "anything with singles is not ever remotely worth playing, so having them as an upgrade is just an extra click that all players will need to do"

That's clearly not the case, and if it isn't the case of "bring a mech with DHS or you have no chance to do anything", then having a straight up upgrade is actually good. You clicky click, and now your mech has double heatsinks. You can then drop some, and take more ammo, or armour, or a bigger gun. Congratulations - you've just optimized your design - wasn't it fun?

That's the thing - people enjoy upgrades. We know buying singles is a more efficient way of getting the cards you need for your deck, and wizards of the coast is still making a crapton of money on the premise that boosters are fun.

If I have the same mech, the same skill, and doubles I am going to beat you 100% of the time. Your argument is nonsense.

[Shumabot]

PropagandaWar, on 28 March 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Reading bits and pieces of this. After clan tech comes out SHS will be even more scarce. But why take out what's already in place? Also the mechs that are being rolled out were primarliy equipped with SHS. After removing R&R tricking out our mechs and consumables is all we have left really in form of money concerns, between the lapses of mechs we may want to purchase. I always add a extra 2 mill to the cost and run with it.

And this game can't attract new players because they're forced to grind 40+ matches and learn about the secret superpower of doubles before they can compete on an even playing field. If this game was some sort of government sponsored and guaranteed funtime title for you and your friends, sure, keep the system as it is. Right now this game is floundering and the threat having those servers sold off due to bankruptcy is very real.

This game needs players beyond its founders. Plain and simple. This is a system that hazes new players and makes the game unfair. Those players quit the game because they're hazed and its unfair.

You want a game? Cut the crap.

[Bishop Steiner]

Actually, if as you yourself say, DHS Would be useless on that build, which they are, then it's because they don't provide a single advantage, and the SHS become superior because it allows me to spend 1.5 million elsewhere. Spending money on something that provides zero advantage, is actually just dumb.

Hence in that (rare) instance SHS are superior, because they allow me to do everything I could do with double heatsinks, but at no cost. upgrades that actually provide zero advantage, are not "optimal", in fact it's inefficient. Might as well take my horse to the vet for a checkup, before I send him to the glue factory, because hey, its only money. Perhaps before you guys toss that term around more, you should look it up and apply it properly.

95% of the time, they are indeed a direct upgrade. Its pretty funny how you try to twist it to sound like they are needed on the few builds they aren't. Well, there's 50 pages demonstrating that you actually aren't trying to be reasonable why expect that to change.

[Shumabot]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Actually, if as you yourself say, DHS Would be useless on that build, which they are, then it's because they don't provide a single advantage, and the SHS become superior because it allows me to spend 1.5 million elsewhere. Spending money on something that provides zero advantage, is actually just dumb.

Hence in that (rare) instance SHS are superior, because they allow me to do everything I could do with double heatsinks, but at no cost. upgrades that actually provide zero advantage, are not "optimal", in fact it's inefficient. Might as well take my horse to the vet for a checkup, before I send him to the glue factory, because hey, its only money. Perhaps before you guys toss that term around more, you should look it up and apply it properly.

95% of the time, they are indeed a direct upgrade. Its pretty funny how you try to twist it to sound like they are needed on the few builds they aren't. Well, there's 50 pages demonstrating that you actually aren't trying to be reasonable why expect that to change.

I couldn't possibly care less about the 5% of terrible underpowered fringe builds (and commandos) that get away with singles. Not a single crap. No care at all. 95% of players shouldn't be punished for the eccentricities of the remaining 5%.

Why would I want to be reasonable with you? You are the enemy of this game. You will cause it to burn to death catering to a tiny audience of obsessive old men who just want to nostalgia trip and don't care that millions in money and infinite potential is wasted catering to a core group of diehards whose loyalty can only be lost by making good decisions.

[Bishop Steiner]

coRrect, because after having your leet "optimalization" BS proven the laughably myopic idiocy it is, I can understand why rants, and petty insults are all you can manage. A coherent, logical argument is certainly beyond you.

Keep it up Timmy, you're not even a good troll.

[Josef Nader]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Actually, if as you yourself say, DHS Would be useless on that build, which they are, then it's because they don't provide a single advantage, and the SHS become superior because it allows me to spend 1.5 million elsewhere. Spending money on something that provides zero advantage, is actually just dumb.

Hence in that (rare) instance SHS are superior, because they allow me to do everything I could do with double heatsinks, but at no cost. upgrades that actually provide zero advantage, are not "optimal", in fact it's inefficient. Might as well take my horse to the vet for a checkup, before I send him to the glue factory, because hey, its only money. Perhaps before you guys toss that term around more, you should look it up and apply it properly.

95% of the time, they are indeed a direct upgrade. Its pretty funny how you try to twist it to sound like they are needed on the few builds they aren't. Well, there's 50 pages demonstrating that you actually aren't trying to be reasonable why expect that to change.

Like I've said at least 4 times, the only reason you WOULDN'T use DHS is because you don't need heat sinks and you don't want to waste the 1.5 mil. Adding a heat tax to everyone is not a good reason to keep DHS in the game.

Edited by Josef Nader, 28 March 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

@shumabot,
coRrect, because after having your leet "optimalization" BS proven the laughably myopic idiocy it is, I can understand why rants, and petty insults are all you can manage.  A coherent, logical argument is certainly beyond you.
Keep it up Timmy, you're not even a good troll@Nader,There is truth to that, though many other pointlts, including the (optimistically) future meta do argue for more than just a "tax".  In a true TDM scenario, there certainly is no reason for the tax, but that can be applied to anything from basic mech cost.  and assuming the entire game will be based around a CoD type scenario simply because the Beta is.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 March 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Shumabot]

Bishop Steiner, on 28 March 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

coRrect, because after having your leet "optimalization" BS proven the laughably myopic idiocy it is, I can understand why rants, and petty insults are all you can manage. A coherent, logical argument is certainly beyond you.

Keep it up Timmy, you're not even a good troll.

Translation:

Quote

It's ok if the game I am playing dies as long as it adheres perfectly to the vision I have of it though my 30 year old nostalgia goggles. I don't play good games, I don't want to play good games, I just want to play BATTLETECH®. I don't care if i play it alone, I don't care if I play it in the dark, I don't care if I have to be pretending to play it because the game died years ago.

I'm perfectly happy to sit alone in my basement and click a mouse connected to a computer that isn't even plugged in because BATTLETECH trumps reality.

I wish I could detach from reality as well as you do. I'm sure it's nice to live in a fairy magic fairytale land where everything conforms to exactly what I want it to, nothing ever hurts, and you can eat the clouds (they taste like pizza!). Unfortunately I live in the real world outside of your head and I'm left wondering how you escaped your padded room.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Shumabot]

Josef Nader, on 28 March 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Like I've said at least 4 times, the only reason you WOULDN'T use DHS is because you don't need heat sinks and you don't want to waste the 1.5 mil. Adding a heat tax to everyone is not a good reason to keep DHS in the game.

You're wasting your breath, his arguments aren't based in the same reality we all live in.

Edited by Shumabot, 28 March 2013 - 03:36 PM.