1107 replies to this topic

[Protection]

And "supposed to be totally superior" is a ****** terrible game design element for a PVP only game.

Give players meaningful choices.

[MustrumRidcully]

Merchant, on 24 March 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

1 - DHS are supposed to be superior.

And a Jagermech firing his 2 AC/2s, 2 AC/5 and 2 Medium Lasers while stnading still is supposed to never overheat. Doesn't happen in this game.

[Kdogg788]

Holding the trigger down with many weapon configs will cause overheat DHS or not. Stock mech configs do not contain DHS. How hard is that to understand? If you want DHS on 25 mechs you're going to have to pay for them like it or not. I don't consider it a redundant choice because some players will not DHS every variant as it would not be cost effective.

-k

[Shumabot]

You need 29 SHS to equal the space efficiency of DHS in an engine with one in engine heat sink. That is wasting 18 tons to just be EQUAL.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing, in this entire game, should ever have single heat sinks. Double heat sinks are a 1.5 mil tax on every single mech in the game.

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Holding the trigger down with many weapon configs will cause overheat DHS or not. Stock mech configs do not contain DHS. How hard is that to understand? If you want DHS on 25 mechs you're going to have to pay for them like it or not. I don't consider it a redundant choice because some players will not DHS every variant as it would not be cost effective.

-k

That's nonsense. Cost effective? In what environment? Having 10 free heatsinks is cost effective in everything except the game you play looking at your mech in the garage and counting the sparks.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Holding the trigger down with many weapon configs will cause overheat DHS or not. Stock mech configs do not contain DHS. How hard is that to understand? If you want DHS on 25 mechs you're going to have to pay for them like it or not. I don't consider it a redundant choice because some players will not DHS every variant as it would not be cost effective.

I am afraid you fail to understand some basics:
1) The stock mechs are too hot. The number of heat sinks they have was designed for weapons that produced half or less the heat they produce. Many of them are expected to overheat if they alpha all the time. But they are not supposed to do this within 10 seconds.
2) I am talking trial and stock mechs here. How you customize your mech is of no concern to me. What matters is how a new player experiences the game, because if his experience is bad, he can just shrug it off with a "Big Stompy Robots are stupid anyway, I can spend my money and time on something else that's more fun."

[Kdogg788]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

I am afraid you fail to understand some basics:
1) The stock mechs are too hot. The number of heat sinks they have was designed for weapons that produced half or less the heat they produce. Many of them are expected to overheat if they alpha all the time. But they are not supposed to do this within 10 seconds.
2) I am talking trial and stock mechs here. How you customize your mech is of no concern to me. What matters is how a new player experiences the game, because if his experience is bad, he can just shrug it off with a "Big Stompy Robots are stupid anyway, I can spend my money and time on something else that's more fun."

A new player spamming the fire button is going to constantly overheat no matter what build you give him. DHS are cost effective in every build that you intend to use frequently but if someone has limited time, and some extra mechs, they might not always buy them immediately. If the argument for removing single sinks is to make it easier for new players not to overheat, then that makes no sense at all. I can't see them ever removing single sinks to be honest as it wouldn't serve any real purpose in the game when doubles are always there is you want to invest in them. They do not come stock with every variant.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

A new player spamming the fire button is going to constantly overheat no matter what build you give him. DHS are cost effective in every build that you intend to use frequently but if someone has limited time, and some extra mechs, they might not always buy them immediately. If the argument for removing single sinks is to make it easier for new players not to overheat, then that makes no sense at all. I can't see them ever removing single sinks to be honest as it wouldn't serve any real purpose in the game when doubles are always there is you want to invest in them. They do not come stock with every variant.

-k

Game balance isn't a good enough reason? Ensuring that players are playing on a level playing field, not something that just rewards the rich with more power isn't a good enough reason?

They shouldn't remove single heat sinks, but they should seriously rework double heat sinks into something that isn't just a straight tax on minimum performance on a mech. No mech in the game is competitively viable with single heat sinks. None. Not one.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 24 March 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Game balance isn't a good enough reason? Ensuring that players are playing on a level playing field, not something that just rewards the rich with more power isn't a good enough reason?

They shouldn't remove single heat sinks, but they should seriously rework double heat sinks into something that isn't just a straight tax on minimum performance on a mech. No mech in the game is competitively viable with single heat sinks. None. Not one.

They did in a way but making them three crit spaces as in TT rules. You can no longer stock sinks in the legs with doubles and use shallow water to partially cool them. And they did balance doubles by making them less effective when outside the mech than what the heat sink strength originally was. Just seems like a counter productive thread as I've never seen doubles as overpowered, especially in light of reducing their dissipation. In a side note, how does the effectiveness of doubles reward the rich? They aren't purchasable with MC, bit of course take more time to get.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

They did in a way but making them three crit spaces as in TT rules. You can no longer stock sinks in the legs with doubles and use shallow water to partially cool them. And they did balance doubles by making them less effective when outside the mech than what the heat sink strength originally was. Just seems like a counter productive thread as I've never seen doubles as overpowered, especially in light of reducing their dissipation. In a side note, how does the effectiveness of doubles reward the rich? They aren't purchasable with MC, bit of course take more time to get.

-k

Confirmed, you have no idea how double heat sinks work. It takes 27 heat sinks in a basic engine to equal the double heat sinks for space and efficiency. In engine double heat sinks count as 200%, therefore you get 10 free heat sinks with no additional crit spaces taken up with doubles.

Not 1.4, 2.0. You don't know how this system works, and that's just another thing thats awful about how doubles are implemented.

[Kdogg788]

Yes I know that engine sinks are 2.0 and those outside are less effective. I'm not entirely clueless as to how it works, but I am a little more heartless when it comes to how players should deal with the system. I have no sympathy for someone who hasn't learned to manage their heat. Overheating is a part of the game. Of course doubles are better. If you want them, buy them. Of course they will not be on 90% of stock mechs unless they are one of the more expensive variants which comes stock with DHS and possibly an XL. If someone can't manage their heat with singe heat sinks, they should either practice better shot selection or buy double sinks.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

Yes I know that engine sinks are 2.0 and those outside are less effective. I'm not entirely clueless as to how it works, but I am a little more heartless when it comes to how players should deal with the system. I have no sympathy for someone who hasn't learned to manage their heat. Overheating is a part of the game. Of course doubles are better. If you want them, buy them. Of course they will not be on 90% of stock mechs unless they are one of the more expensive variants which comes stock with DHS and possibly an XL. If someone can't manage their heat with singe heat sinks, they should either practice better shot selection or buy double sinks.

-k

You sound like you don't actually care about game quality in the slightest and just want to be pretentious and elitest in your "skill".

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 24 March 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

You sound like you don't actually care about game quality in the slightest and just want to be pretentious and elitest in your "skill".

How did you ever infer that from what I said. My k/d and win/loss are both around 1.2, which is not out of this world by any means. I am decidedly average at this game.

Single and double heat sinks are both available in game. Their relative effectiveness is not likely to change. If you want them, equip them. This does not diminish game quality in the least and are one of the least important game metrics in need of balancing.

-k

[Malora Sidewinder]

NinetyProof, on 22 March 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

The purpose of single heat sink:

Money Sink

What's the first thing you upgrade on a mech? Endo Steel, DHS, Engine ...

Why don't stock mechs come this way?

Money Sink

The entire purpose of not giving people all the bells and whistles is to suck more time from you so you decide to open your wallet and exchange time for money.

In traditional MMO style games, you don't have the option to exchange time for money ... and that levels the playing field. Out here? All things are built with the Pay-For-Power mentality. Because Pay-For-Power pays PGI's bills.

i'd like to stress again that currently we do not have "pay-for-power."
We have "pay-for-convenience." very big difference, and the two don't really overlap all that much. try not to get them confused in the future, kay?

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

How did you ever infer that from what I said. My k/d and win/loss are both around 1.2, which is not out of this world by any means. I am decidedly average at this game.

Single and double heat sinks are both available in game. Their relative effectiveness is not likely to change. If you want them, equip them. This does not diminish game quality in the least and are one of the least important game metrics in need of balancing.

-k

Because you advocate a system whose only role is to exacerbate game balance problems and punish new players. You do it for the sake of punishing people for ignorance and lack of resources. Your only reasoning specifically implies a level of pretentious elitism. You have said absolutely nothing that doesn't imply that you just want to keep yours and get easier wins against people who don't have access or knowledge.

You also very directly implied that you don't actually know what these systems implicate and how they function within the game.

Edited by Shumabot, 24 March 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

How did you ever infer that from what I said. My k/d and win/loss are both around 1.2, which is not out of this world by any means. I am decidedly average at this game.

Single and double heat sinks are both available in game. Their relative effectiveness is not likely to change. If you want them, equip them. This does not diminish game quality in the least and are one of the least important game metrics in need of balancing.

-k

You are missing the point. Well, at least one of the points made.

It isn't about "Whee, my standard heat sinks are too weak, and i can't afford them. I don't want my mech to shutdown!"

It is about new players. People not me, probably people not even on these forums, that get into the game and start playing mechs with standard heat sinks that were build for a system where weapons had only half or less of the heat generation they have in this game. As a consequence, these people play mechs that are not fun to play. Mechs that are prone to be taken out by heat. Mechs that would be better designed if they either had double heat sinks, or had half of their weapons replaced with heat sinks - then they would have a lot less firepower, but they wouldn't power down so often.

Power down in MW:O is not like overheating your gun in Mass Effect 1, where the gun just stops shooting. It means your HUD goes offline and your mech stands still for several seconds. There are games that feature "crowd control" abiliites that can take you out of the fight like this -but usually those CC abilities are highly limtied, and they are almost always cause for balancing problems on the team. (But are kept around because they also provide interesting game dynamics if done well - just like heat does in MW:O). But if you lock out players too often, it's "unfun". Most noobs have no idea how much damage they inflict, or how much damage they have to inflict to be competitive, so if their mech is underpowered because its firepower is low, they won't notice, and if they do they might even assume that things will get better with better gear. What they definitely notice is when their mech stops responding to their input. And taking control away from the player like that is always a negative experience, and they cannot know whether that is normal or not or will get better.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 March 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Kdogg788]

Shumabot, on 24 March 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Because you advocate a system whose only role is to exacerbate game balance problems and punish new players. You do it for the sake of punishing people for ignorance and lack of resources. Your only reasoning specifically implies a level of pretentious elitism. You have said absolutely nothing that doesn't imply that you just want to keep yours and get easier wins against people who don't have access or knowledge.

You also very directly implied that you don't actually know what these systems implicate and how they function within the game.

Nearly very mech begins with single sinks. So pretty much every player begins with mech models with single heat sinks. What's to stop someone from using their cadet bonus to buy a smaller mech and then outfit it with double sinks? Besides, if the game moves towards using user builds for trial mechs, than trial builds may have DHS more often than not.

It's just not a logical argument to either take singles out of the game or buff sinks because new players cannot manage heat. Without searching through the entire forum, I know this had been discussed before and that the majority would agree that the system as it is now is more than adequate. I know DHS is an expensive upgrade, but not out of reach if you are upgrading one or two mechs.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Nearly very mech begins with single sinks. So pretty much every player begins with mech models with single heat sinks. What's to stop someone from using their cadet bonus to buy a smaller mech and then outfit it with double sinks? Besides, if the game moves towards using user builds for trial mechs, than trial builds may have DHS more often than not.

Because those players are demonstrably weaker than players with mechs that have been specced. Those players lose, not because they are less skilled, but because the game dramatically rewards aggregation of wealth. That is bad. That is bad game design. That drives players away from the game and creates unfair matches and boring games devoid of actual contest. There is no arguing against this. Any way you try is going to just sound lame.

Quote

It's just not a logical argument to either take singles out of the game or buff sinks because new players cannot manage heat. Without searching through the entire forum, I know this had been discussed before and that the majority would agree that the system as it is now is more than adequate. I know DHS is an expensive upgrade, but not out of reach if you are upgrading one or two mechs.

-k

You plainly don't understand what is wrong with these systems. You won't understand because you don't want to. I'm done trying to educate you, and I just hope (but doubt) that in the long run the developers can turn this sinking ship around.

Edited by Shumabot, 24 March 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Kdogg788]

If they want to turn this game around they'd do something about ECM, which no doubt causes more confusion for new players than heat and implement CW now.

Gaining Cbills takes time whether they like it or not and managing heat takes experience. I'm in a mood today because half the topics on the front page are regarding nerf this or buff that as is typical around here, and that frankly is sad. New players get better by actually playing the game, not making the game come down to their level. That is the most frustrating part about much of the commentary here.

Yes many players have the money to buy MC in order to float premium time and hero mechs which by nature increase the speed at which they can earn. DHS are an upgrade, and an expensive upgrade for most mechs. Trials will have DHS with these user builds, but even that won't save someone without trigger discipline coming over from battlefield where you can just hold the button down and hose the enemy.

-k

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 24 March 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

If they want to turn this game around they'd do something about ECM, which no doubt causes more confusion for new players than heat and implement CW now.

Gaining Cbills takes time whether they like it or not and managing heat takes experience. I'm in a mood today because half the topics on the front page are regarding nerf this or buff that as is typical around here, and that frankly is sad. New players get better by actually playing the game, not making the game come down to their level. That is the most frustrating part about much of the commentary here.

Yes many players have the money to buy MC in order to float premium time and hero mechs which by nature increase the speed at which they can earn. DHS are an upgrade, and an expensive upgrade for most mechs. Trials will have DHS with these user builds, but even that won't save someone without trigger discipline coming over from battlefield where you can just hold the button down and hose the enemy.

-k

Like I said, lame excuses and a bit of elitism.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Shumabot, on 24 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

You plainly don't understand what is wrong with these systems. You won't understand because you don't want to. I'm done trying to educate you, and I just hope (but doubt) that in the long run the developers can turn this sinking ship around.

I need to be more like this on this forum.