1107 replies to this topic

[Writer]

If PGI wants people to use SHS then they need to make them not suck. Currently they're a joke. Were SHS and Ferro Fiberous viable you'd see much more interesting builds.

[Mercules]

There is an easier solution. Take away Double Heat sinks. Single Heat Sinks are relative again and people will need to learn heat management.

[HumptyWasPushed]

My Com-2D uses singles for space.

[SteelShrike]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

There is an easier solution. Take away Double Heat sinks. Single Heat Sinks are relative again and people will need to learn heat management.

That's not necessary, either. I just had an epiphany that I posted in my thread on the suggestions forums.

Basically, if you make all heatsinks dissipate heat equally fast, but DHS increases your relative heat scale, you'll see SHS have a niche among lights again I believe where enormous heat spikes aren't as much of a factor. If a Light can dissipate all its heat using single heatsinks already, it won't benefit from DHS at all. In the event it can't sink all its heat before its ready to fire again, the difference in times could very well be negligible.

Essentially, DHS becomes a means of regulating hotter weapons to create less heat spike, and not as a means of simply cooling off faster. A PPC carrying Awesome with double heatsinks and a Hunchback loaded down with medium lasers and single heatsinks will hypothetically be able to sustain fire at each other for the same length of time before shutting down, and reach 0 heat again at the same time.

Granted, that same Hunchie could theoretically mount DHS and sustain fire longer then, if it had the room to do so. But there's always going to be a marked improvement of DHS over SHS no matter what you do. It's just a matter of determining that sweet spot where the two have their own niche that makes sense.

Edited by SteelShrike, 25 March 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Kdogg788]

I am still of the opinion that this thread diverged FAST and the question of whether DHS are better than SHS is irrelevant. It is a starting point and up to the player to upgrade them as part of their build if that's what they want. Someone above made the comment that all "optimized" builds include DHS. Of course! But then again, how many mechs start off optimized or close to it, the X-5?

If we were to apply this logic to the rest of the game there'd be several other pieces of equipment they'd want to get rid of. I can hear it now, "Remove small pulse lasers, ER Large lasers, Atlas K, redundant Hunchback variants, the XL275 engine (same tonnage as the XL280), Jenner K and replace with something else, etc. etc. etc.

In short, there hasn't been a coherent argument as to why singles should be removed beyond, "DHS are much better, why would anyone it their right mind run singles?" or "New players can't handle heat and need help against better players who've spent the time and Cbills/MC running and optimizing their builds while getting better at the game."

-k

[SteelShrike]

I don't think anyone's questioning that anymore. I'm also not sure if anyone's listening to me. >.>

The goal is to find a point where the choice between DHS and SHS ends up being moot. It actually happens in table-top. There's a reason Lights don't often carry DHS in stock variants in the table-top. Because their weapons don't produce enough heat to actually take advantage of it. If you can produce similar results and situations in MWO, then it becomes more of a choice under certain builds where your stock 10 single heatsinks actually prove to be enough to regulate your heat at the same level as DHS would. At that point, there'd be no reason to upgrade. Most Lights and some Mediums then would find the upgrade unnecessary.

Edited by SteelShrike, 25 March 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

SteelShrike, on 25 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I don't think anyone's questioning that anymore. I'm also not sure if anyone's listening to me. >.>

The goal is to find a point where the choice between DHS and SHS ends up being moot. It actually happens in table-top. There's a reason Lights don't often carry DHS in stock variants in the table-top. Because their weapons don't produce enough heat to actually take advantage of it. If you can produce similar results and situations in MWO, then it becomes more of a choice under certain builds where your stock 10 single heatsinks actually prove to be enough to regulate your heat at the same level as DHS would. At that point, there'd be no reason to upgrade. Most Lights and some Mediums then would find the upgrade unnecessary.

That reason is 3x crit spaces. Most lights have to carry FFA and Endo and smaller engine sizes make it so Dubs are tough to fit. Lots of years designing Mechs and re-configuring them.

[Protection]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

I am still of the opinion that this thread diverged FAST and the question of whether DHS are better than SHS is irrelevant. It is a starting point and up to the player to upgrade them as part of their build if that's what they want. Someone above made the comment that all "optimized" builds include DHS. Of course! But then again, how many mechs start off optimized or close to it, the X-5?

If we were to apply this logic to the rest of the game there'd be several other pieces of equipment they'd want to get rid of. I can hear it now, "Remove small pulse lasers, ER Large lasers, Atlas K, redundant Hunchback variants, the XL275 engine (same tonnage as the XL280), Jenner K and replace with something else, etc. etc. etc.

In short, there hasn't been a coherent argument as to why singles should be removed beyond, "DHS are much better, why would anyone it their right mind run singles?" or "New players can't handle heat and need help against better players who've spent the time and Cbills/MC running and optimizing their builds while getting better at the game."

-k

That's the problem - the newest (worst) players are given the least effective mechs - so much so that they are at a rather large disadvantage even against another new play, just so long as that player has his own mech and purchased double heatsinks.

It would be better game design to have both singles and doubles have a tactical purpose, even in a well optimized mech, and make it a gameplay style choice, rather than a strict upgrade.

SteelShrike, on 25 March 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

I don't think anyone's questioning that anymore. I'm also not sure if anyone's listening to me. >.>

The goal is to find a point where the choice between DHS and SHS ends up being moot. It actually happens in table-top. There's a reason Lights don't often carry DHS in stock variants in the table-top. Because their weapons don't produce enough heat to actually take advantage of it. If you can produce similar results and situations in MWO, then it becomes more of a choice under certain builds where your stock 10 single heatsinks actually prove to be enough to regulate your heat at the same level as DHS would. At that point, there'd be no reason to upgrade. Most Lights and some Mediums then would find the upgrade unnecessary.

Even if DHS are not absolutely required, there is no point not to have them, because they are so dramatically superior and come at no cost unless you require 40+ heatsinks or are running a small joke of an engine.

Cost is not a factor for any high end player. Almost any high end player has tens of millions of C-bills and dozens of mechs all with double heasinks -- there is no reason not to have them. This is a poor gameplay philosophy.

[SteelShrike]

That's the point I'm trying to make, though. Ways to make DHS less of a dramatic upgrade.

With my plan, 'Mechs that have reached the 30% heat mark will cool down at the same rates, regardless of heat sink type. DHS will have the advantage of just being able to shoot a little more before reaching that mark.

As it stands now, DHS comes with a double bonus. It increases your heat scale, and it increases how fast you sink heat, effectively doubling the benefit it's meant to give. Remove one or the other, and you've got them much closer to what they should be, and I guarantee you they won't be as much of a drastic game-changer. That'll become more evident if more heat penalties are introduced in the game. Then SHS and DHS 'Mechs will suffer under their effects for equal amounts of time, because neither one cools off faster than the other.

Edited by SteelShrike, 25 March 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

There is an easier solution. Take away Double Heat sinks. Single Heat Sinks are relative again and people will need to learn heat management.

Thank you, I was in Closed Beta. People learned to manage their heat just fine.

Gauss Cats, 8 SL Hunchbacks, 8 ML Awesomes, 6 SL Jenners. PPCs, ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers left on the garbage pile again

It still won't make trial/stock mechs worth a damn.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 March 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[Protection]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Thank you, I was in Closed Beta. People learned to manage their heat just fine.

Gauss Cats, 8 SL Hunchbacks, 8 ML Awesomes, 6 SL Jenners. PPCs, ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers left on the garbage pile again

It still won't make trial/stock mechs worth a damn.

Do not mock the 115 kph, 9 SMLas Hucnhback - it was a glorious mech. And a cruel victim of the engine restriction neft.

Rest in peace, noble Slasback. You were too bright a star for this cruel world.

[Mercules]

MustrumRidcully, on 25 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Thank you, I was in Closed Beta. People learned to manage their heat just fine.

Gauss Cats, 8 SL Hunchbacks, 8 ML Awesomes, 6 SL Jenners. PPCs, ER PPCs, ER Large Lasers left on the garbage pile again

It still won't make trial/stock mechs worth a damn.

I was there too and the Hunchies and Awesomes were more because of lack of engine speed controls allowing them to go almost as fast as a light with more lasers and armor. The weapons you mentioned have all had a heat adjustment since then.


Personally the solution to new players having to run crappy stock mechs and everyone else being able to customize is to take away all customization for a while. Players would figure out what works and might appreciate the "upgrades" they are allowed. Most of us have not been in a non-upgraded mech since the week after Open Beta started. In fact most of us save up for the mech and all the upgrades we will want before even buying the mech much less playing it.

I like customization as much as the next person but instead of saying we should just remove something because no one would use it as customization makes it worthless... why remove the symptom when the issue is the customization? Yeah, yeah,,, variants that would not be used... some suck.... but they would suck a LOT less compared to other stock builds. We probably wouldn't even need doubled armor..... I know.. right?

[Shumabot]

HumptyWasPushed, on 25 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

My Com-2D uses singles for space.

It's established now that the only mech in the game that has a use for singles is the commando because it's the only mech in the game that can't fit an engine with 10 internal sinks.

It is one mech out of 16. 6.25% of the mechs in the game.

This is not a good argument for the viability of single heat sinks in this game.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Clideb50]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

Okay. Stalker 3F for example double heat sinks reduce my heat efficiency, so I use single heat sinks (due to not enough slots to put in a decent number of double sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44cb0a2f6707002

[MustrumRidcully]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I was there too and the Hunchies and Awesomes were more because of lack of engine speed controls allowing them to go almost as fast as a light with more lasers and armor. The weapons you mentioned have all had a heat adjustment since then.

These heat changes only made people start using them when Double Heat Sinks were already available. They didn'T use them in any manner before that.

And Gauss Rifles were always OP in a single heat sink environment.

Quote

Personally the solution to new players having to run crappy stock mechs and everyone else being able to customize is to take away all customization for a while. Players would figure out what works and might appreciate the "upgrades" they are allowed. Most of us have not been in a non-upgraded mech since the week after Open Beta started. In fact most of us save up for the mech and all the upgrades we will want before even buying the mech much less playing it.

That should have been done in Closed Beta, and they should have balanced all the weapons and all items so the stock mechs make sense and work better.

The thing is not just that people don't like to "manage heat". The thing is that these mechs are just not designed for the heat load they can produce in MW:O. There could be perfectly viable standard heat sinks in a standard heat sink environment even in MW:O - they just don't look anything like stock mechs. They look like stock mechs where you have taken out half the weapons and installed standard heat sinks for them.

Or they use ballistics and missiles, all weapons that are more damage/heat efficient than energy weapons. Their stats come from a game where most weapons dealt their damage and heat once per turn. That allowed balancing weapons in a rather simple way - x points of heat for a weapon was basically equivlaent to x tons of extra weight for that weapon. But if you suddenly allow a weapon to deal twice its damage and heat in a turn, this math just doesn't work out anymore.
AC/10: 10 Damage / 10 seconds; 12 tons, 3 Heat / 10 seconds. 15 tons. Addd 2 tons of ammo, and you're at 17.
PPC: 10 damage / 10 seconds: 7 tons, 10 Heat / 10 seconds. 17 tons.
Roughly balanced.

Add Double Heat Sinks in TT? You just buffed the effective weight from PPC down from 17 to 12, but the weight of the AC/10 only down from 17 to 15.5. That's why Level 2 Tech needed Ultra Auto-Cannons and Gauss Rifles, to close this gap.

Give all weapons to produce twice their heat and twice their damage:
AC/10: 20 Damage / 10 seconds, 6 heat / 10 seconds: 20-22 tons (depending on whether you also double the ammo count.)
PPC: 20 damage / 10 seconds; 20 heat / 10 seconds: 27 tons

And MW:O didn't stop there. AC/10 can fire every 2.5 seconds and PPCs every 3 seconds, so ... even with the 8 heat they are not quite equal yet again. The only reason those 6 Hexa PPC stalkers exist is also because the heat system doesn't create heat penalties and offers a high heat capacity instead.

[Mercules]

They still should have increased fire rate but then divided the Heat & Damage on the weapon charts by how many shots the weapon now does in MWO in 10 seconds. Single Heat sinks balanced, doubled armor not needed, stock mechs now work, newbies don't overheat as much, and more.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yeah, yeah,,, variants that would not be used... some suck.... but they would suck a LOT less compared to other stock builds. We probably wouldn't even need doubled armor..... I know.. right?

There are lots of variants that don't get used in TT. The Spider is one of them. Cicada (most variants) same. It is the EXP system that is nerfing our Mech Selections. Since we have to grind 3 to master the one we want, many Mechs are out of this game right now!

[Protection]

Regulus1990, on 25 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Okay. Stalker 3F for example double heat sinks reduce my heat efficiency, so I use single heat sinks (due to not enough slots to put in a decent number of double sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44cb0a2f6707002

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aed1af569379f90

Improved in every category. Faster, cooler, and more armour.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

They still should have increased fire rate but then divided the Heat & Damage on the weapon charts by how many shots the weapon now does in MWO in 10 seconds. Single Heat sinks balanced, doubled armor not needed, stock mechs now work, newbies don't overheat as much, and more.

I know. But they never listened to us, they never even entered an active discussion with us.
So I suppose it's irrelevant what we say on single heat sinks in the end anyway.

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aed1af569379f90

Improved in every category. Faster, cooler, and more armour.

I think we need a "**** my ride" thread....

I suppose many players don't recognize what do to with unused weight - put in a bigger engine!

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 25 March 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Klemvore]

I agree with most people.

Doubles are preferred... it's not so much for the 1.4x efficiency per ton by giving up critical slots... it's about the 2.0x efficiency in the engine WITHOUT tonnage or critical slots. This is where the real advantage of DHS occurs... IN THE ENGINE.

So the first things I do when I buy a mech is upgrade to double heatsinks... I then CONSIDER Endo.. and on rare occasion I consider ferro.

Then I assess engine... This is more difficult. XL vs standard... man that weight savings is INCREDIBLE and I can get a bigger faster engine WITH MORE INNATE HEATSINKS... but I can get killed easier... I still usually prefer it because I can't stand being slow but there is one mech I use where I specifically opted out of it due to durability and I could afford the tonnage to get a 300 standard engine and equip all the weaps I had intended (atlas)

Simple example.

You have a cataphract with a 240 engine and single heat sinks.

You need a bit more cooling so you add 2 single heatsinks in the legs since no mount points down there.

Your engine weighs16.5 tons ad has 9 heatsinks.. add the 2 SHS and you are up to 18.5 tons and 11 heatsinks.

I would drop a 250 engine in there 18.5 tons.... SAME AS YOUR COMBINED WEIGHT. Then I would pay 1.5 million for double heatsinks... doubles in the engine are 2.0 not 1.4

So you have 11 heat sinks for 18.5 tons and I have 20 heatsinks for 18.5 tons... OH.. BTW I run faster than you too.

This is without adding any new things to get critically hit... but say if I did add non-engine DHS... yes they get critically hit also but so would any weapons in that area... if you lose a gun you might as well lose the heatsinks that it needed... who cares?

So anyway DHS is a HUGE upgrade... but no they shouldn't give it out for free.. and the trial mechs should suck.. that's your incentive to buy mechs... it makes it hard for newbs to start I know... but if you can sign up for an acct and pilot the mech you want built then why bother paying PGI for MC or actually earning it in game?