1107 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

There are lots of variants that don't get used in TT. The Spider is one of them. Cicada (most variants) same. It is the EXP system that is nerfing our Mech Selections. Since we have to grind 3 to master the one we want, many Mechs are out of this game right now!

Hmmmm... I've used them both before in TT. Both have a battle value between 500-600 which isn't horrible for what they do. They make excellent scouts and we play with Double Blind rules when using a certain computer program(makes all those optional rules WAY easier).

I agree with the needing to grind three variants really hurting mech selection though. There are some excellent mechs that didn't NEED variants because they worked well in the function they had.

[Skylarr]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Please, do share one of these builds...

It is March 3050. Only the most Elite Units received new Tech. A good 85% to 95% of all Mech coming off the Line have Single Heat Sinks. It was during the lull in the Clan Invasion when production clicked into high gear as Field Refit Kits were made and sent to Units on the front Line.

Even after the Clan invasion the supply of DHS went to Elite Units and those on the Clan Front. Other units spread through out the IS still had SHS. Sometime in the 3050s to 3060s, as technology started to improve, DHS became more common in Mechs coming off the line.

[Shumabot]

Skylarr, on 25 March 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

It is March 3050. Only the most Elite Units received new Tech. A good 85% to 95% of all Mech coming off the Line have Single Heat Sinks. It was during the lull in the Clan Invasion when production clicked into high gear as Field Refit Kits were made and sent to Units on the front Line.

Even after the Clan invasion the supply of DHS went to Elite Units and those on the Clan Front. Other units spread through out the IS still had SHS. Sometime in the 3050s to 3060s, as technology started to improve, DHS became more common in Mechs coming off the line.

I just heard a bit bit of nothing that has to do with MWO.

[Protection]

Skylarr, on 25 March 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

It is March 3050. Only the most Elite Units received new Tech. A good 85% to 95% of all Mech coming off the Line have Single Heat Sinks. It was during the lull in the Clan Invasion when production clicked into high gear as Field Refit Kits were made and sent to Units on the front Line.

Even after the Clan invasion the supply of DHS went to Elite Units and those on the Clan Front. Other units spread through out the IS still had SHS. Sometime in the 3050s to 3060s, as technology started to improve, DHS became more common in Mechs coming off the line.

Okay but in Mechwarrior: Online, 95% of the players are now super elite units with rare mechs and advanced, expensive technology. The lore make for fine reading, but isn't conducive to good gameplay in this case.

Plus Mechwarrior: Online more or less has its own lore now. Gausscats, Poptarts, Streak-Ravens, SplatCats -- there is nothing even remotely resembling the designs of the lore being used.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

I just heard a bit bit of nothing that has to do with MWO.

Except being the reason for MWO to exist you mean.

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Okay but in Mechwarrior: Online, 95% of the players are now super elite units with rare mechs and advanced, expensive technology. The lore make for fine reading, but isn't conducive to good gameplay in this case.

Plus Mechwarrior: Online more or less has its own lore now. Gausscats, Poptarts, Streak-Ravens, SplatCats -- there is nothing even remotely resembling the designs of the lore being used.

You have a good point... lets strip everyone of their mechs and force them to play stock mechs. Ta-da... Single heat sinks used and relevant again.

They don't hurt you... just leave them in the game.

[Shumabot]

Regulus1990, on 25 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

Okay. Stalker 3F for example double heat sinks reduce my heat efficiency, so I use single heat sinks (due to not enough slots to put in a decent number of double sinks.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...44cb0a2f6707002

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5bb24ad1ec9d4e5

I just made you go 11 KPH faster and improved your heat efficiency by 1%. You now have max armor. You still have some weight left over.

This is why this debate exists, because you people are terrible at making mechs. Plain and simple, you are bad at it. That mech was terrible, dubs made you stronger, faster, and harder to kill and YOU STILL HAVE WEIGHT FOR MORE WEAPONS NOW.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5bb24ad1ec9d4e5

I just made you go 11 KPH faster and improved your heat efficiency by 1%. You now have max armor. You still have some weight left over.

This is why this debate exists, because you people are terrible at making mechs. Plain and simple, you are bad at it.

No, the debate exists because some people can't understand that not everything has to be optimized, even in a competitive game and "working for something" is a viable reason to play a game. The issue is that PGI has made it FAR to easy to get everything.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

Except being the reason for MWO to exist you mean.

No. No, that's just a lie. The people that care about mechwarriors background and fluff are an extreme minority. The kind of people that would give a company hundreds of dollars on a prayer that they might make a good game. Golds.
You are like the people that care as much about the towns in pokemon as the pokemon. Here's a hint, no one cares about viridian city and no one cares about the spread of DHS in the inner sphere. People care about mechs and pokemon.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

No. No, that's just a lie. The people that care about mechwarriors background and fluff are an extreme minority. The kind of people that would give a company hundreds of dollars on a prayer that they might make a good game. Golds.
You are like the people that care as much about the towns in pokemon as the pokemon. Here's a hint, no one cares about viridian city and no one cares about the spread of DHS in the inner sphere. People care about mechs and pokemon.

Here's a hint... you are playing this game today because someone cared.

[Protection]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

No, the debate exists because some people can't understand that not everything has to be optimized, even in a competitive game and "working for something" is a viable reason to play a game. The issue is that PGI has made it FAR to easy to get everything.

Because it's a PvP game. Strict upgrades make perfect sense in PvE - it gives a sense of progression. Upgrades are dumb for PvP because it creates a less-than-level playing field, and ultimately limits variety and forces specific optimizations in order to remain at the most competitive level.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

No, the debate exists because some people can't understand that not everything has to be optimized, even in a competitive game and "working for something" is a viable reason to play a game. The issue is that PGI has made it FAR to easy to get everything.

No, the issue is that PGI has mechanics in its game that are straight upgrades. Nothing should be a straight upgrade, everything should be choice driven because that is how you create depth. Pretending that "fluff builds are ok even though their bad" is stupid. They're not ok, this isn't a single player game and you are hurting other people when you use them. You should be encouraged to use varied and fun builds by the games mechanics and not punished for them. Double heat sinks and endo actively reduce variety and hurt players that want to have fun by creating tiers of quality in mechs tiers that shouldn't really exist. They are a bad and stupid mechanic.

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Here's a hint... you are playing this game today because someone cared.

Heres a hint. I don't care. This game is a dying husk because people like you care too much about bad 80s yellow peril fanfiction and the devs are afraid of making this into a good game because in the end you don't want a good game you just want your nostalgia trip.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 07:24 AM.

[GRIMM11]

Michael Costanza, on 22 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I can't believe I'm the only person so far who mentioned the canon reason.... that's what happens when people play a game instead of reading the books/technical readouts/manuals that make up the backstory to the game.

Cannon and Tabletop and realistically are three different ways to approach this game. I favor realism, a double heat sink would essentially be, a double sized heat sink. I think the way this game will fail is if it attempts to follow all of Mechwarrior's prior rules. Between Mechwarrior 2,4 and mechcommander 2 there are 3 different ways this game was designed to play out with load outs. This game chose to follow a space and hardpoint system, I believe this is a great system which allows for good customization while also staying realistic. Now as we all can see in here, is a K2 with 2 AC20's in the left and right torsos, we should be able to see double and single heat sinks working in unison. Cannon or not, This is realistic. Do you tell me that in your gaming PC, that all your heatsinks are the same size? or the radiator in your car? are they all the same size?

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

No, the issue is that PGI has mechanics in its game that are straight upgrades. Nothing should be a straight upgrade, everything should be choice driven because that is how you create depth. Pretending that "fluff builds are ok even though their bad" is stupid. They're not ok, this isn't a single player game and you are hurting other people when you use them. You should be encouraged to use varied and fun builds by the games mechanics and not punished for them. Double heat sinks and endo actively reduce variety and hurt players that want to have fun by creating tiers of quality in mechs tiers that shouldn't really exist. They are a bad and stupid mechanic.

Yes, that ABILITY TO EVEN UPGRADE is what causes that. It's not that Single Heat Sinks or Standard Internal Structure are bad... it's that you can even upgrade to them at ALL that is causing the issue. It is further compounded by keeping partial TT values. If they want weapons to fire X times in 10 seconds then divide the damage from the TT tables and the heat by that. Now you have balanced heat.

It's because people go, "You can't do it like TT." and then radically altering a working system without considering the consequences of it that the game is where it is at, not the opposite. How much easier would it have been to produce STOCK mechs than design mechs with changing weapons showing up on hardpoints? Tons easier and easier to balance.

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Heres a hint. I don't care. This game is a dying husk because people like you care too much about bad 80s yellow peril fanfiction and the devs are afraid of making this into a good game because in the end you don't want a good game you just want your nostalgia trip.

Pretending they are mutually exclusive is a False Dichotomy. You can have a good game and follow the lore.

[Mercules]

GRIMM11, on 25 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Cannon and Tabletop and realistically are three different ways to approach this game. I favor realism, a double heat sink would essentially be, a double sized heat sink. I think the way this game will fail is if it attempts to follow all of Mechwarrior's prior rules. Between Mechwarrior 2,4 and mechcommander 2 there are 3 different ways this game was designed to play out with load outs. This game chose to follow a space and hardpoint system, I believe this is a great system which allows for good customization while also staying realistic. Now as we all can see in here, is a K2 with 2 AC20's in the left and right torsos, we should be able to see double and single heat sinks working in unison. Cannon or not, This is realistic. Do you tell me that in your gaming PC, that all your heatsinks are the same size? or the radiator in your car? are they all the same size?

Well, the fusion engine and Large Laser in my car produce more heat so I had to swap out the radiator for the larger... oh wait...

No, they didn't strictly follow previous rules, that is half the issue. They followed some precedents from previous MW games that also didn't bother to check the rules and that is causing issues again. Same issues 10-20 years later from ignoring some really basic TT things.

[Shumabot]

Quote

Pretending they are mutually exclusive is a False Dichotomy. You can have a good game and follow the lore.

No, no you really can't. Not with BT where pay for performance is ingrained into the lore and things like manufacturing costs of mechs in an army are used as an excuse as to why some mechs are purely worse than others. These systems do not, and will never transfer into a competitive multiplayer videogame. They didn't even work in the tabletop game which was an unbalanced mess.

They're also silly, outdated, occasionally racist, and thoroughly in need of a revamp. BTs fiction is the only 80s setting that hasn't been rewritten to be pulled into modernity. It's bad.

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Well, the fusion engine and Large Laser in my car produce more heat so I had to swap out the radiator for the larger... oh wait...

No, they didn't strictly follow previous rules, that is half the issue. They followed some precedents from previous MW games that also didn't bother to check the rules and that is causing issues again. Same issues 10-20 years later from ignoring some really basic TT things.

Battltech TT is a horrible basis for a videogame. It doesn't even work as a tabletop game. It died because it was bad and people stopped playing it. Stop trying to transfer a poorly written mess from the days of AD&D into a multiplayer videogame in 2013.

[Skylarr]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Battltech TT is a horrible basis for a videogame. It doesn't even work as a tabletop game. It died because it was bad and people stopped playing it. Stop trying to transfer a poorly written mess from the days of AD&D into a multiplayer videogame in 2013.

OMG TT is dead. I am guessing someone should tell Tops to change their mind in giving Catalyst a long term Licensing Agreement.

The Topps Company and Catalyst Game Labs are pleased to announce a long-term extension for the Shadowrun and MechWarrior/BattleTech licenses. This deal facilitates Catalyst’s goals of continuing to support and grow the MechWarrior/BattleTech and Shadowrun brands and will see them continue to produce high quality role-playing games and outstanding fiction.

[Shumabot]

Skylarr, on 25 March 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

OMG TT is dead. I am guessing someone should tell Tops to change their mind in giving Catalyst a long term Licensing Agreement.

The Topps Company and Catalyst Game Labs are pleased to announce a long-term extension for the Shadowrun and MechWarrior/BattleTech licenses. This deal facilitates Catalyst’s goals of continuing to support and grow the MechWarrior/BattleTech and Shadowrun brands and will see them continue to produce high quality role-playing games and outstanding fiction.

http://worldjoust.com/

Yeah and people still joust too. When your press release is on your own website that looks like the space jam website and that website is 426,000 on alexa you're not alive, you're a joke. My twitter has more views than that press release.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Mercules]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

No, no you really can't. Not with BT where pay for performance is ingrained into the lore and things like manufacturing costs of mechs in an army are used as an excuse as to why some mechs are purely worse than others. These systems do not, and will never transfer into a competitive multiplayer videogame. They didn't even work in the tabletop game which was an unbalanced mess.

They're also silly, outdated, occasionally racist, and thoroughly in need of a revamp. BTs fiction is the only 80s setting that hasn't been rewritten to be pulled into modernity. It's bad.




Battltech TT is a horrible basis for a videogame. It doesn't even work as a tabletop game. It died because it was bad and people stopped playing it. Stop trying to transfer a poorly written mess from the days of AD&D into a multiplayer videogame in 2013.

Stop trying to present false claims as evidence.

1. with BV, which is a standard of play, TT is balanced just fine.
2. Economy can be a balancing factor for TT, especially in campaign driven games(much like community warfare). It only doesn't work here because players won't let it(aka whining).
3. TT Battletech is alive and well despite your claims of it dying long ago. I am applying the well written rules of a couple years ago to a video game based off them.

[Protection]

Here's the thing - a PVP online video game is the wrong place to go if you want to experience the lore.

Even if you did all of the game mechanics 100% true to lore, you still would never see single heatsinks or stock mechs. You would see 25 medium laser insta-kill death machines, 40xLRM5 boats, 10xSRM6 Boats, etc, etc.

This is the thing you need to account for in the online gaming world - we are optimizers. We will minimax, we will optimize our builds, we will exploit every advantage, we will go through the data, and we will ensure that our builds are as advantageous as possible in every way.

This is the philosophy that an online game needs to balance around -- not tabletop rules in a game that was largely decided by dice rolls.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Stop trying to present false claims as evidence.

1. with BV, which is a standard of play, TT is balanced just fine.
2. Economy can be a balancing factor for TT, especially in campaign driven games(much like community warfare). It only doesn't work here because players won't let it(aka whining).
3. TT Battletech is alive and well despite your claims of it dying long ago. I am applying the well written rules of a couple years ago to a video game based off them.

https://mwtactics.com/

You're on the wrong website. I think you're confused. This is where you belong. BV is inapplicable to a round based multiplayer game, and TT balance is crap. Everything boats and half the mechs in the TT are worthless trash. Economy can not be a balancing factor, it just creates haves and have nots. People whined because it's a bad idea and no implementation of it is going to work. That is the exact reason why no game ever does it.

The anual revenue and growth of the BT tabletop game is smaller than that of the warlords card game. Another legitimately dead game. It is smaller than AD&D, a 25 year old game that hasn't been updated in 20 of them. BT is dead. That you enjoy means nothing when anyone with a middle class salary could buy the licence outright as long as they took on the debt.